Let us see the whole area please!

[Hormalakh]

I remember when I would play some of the IE games like BG/BG2/Fallout and whenever I would be exploring an area that there would always be two kinds of Fog of War. The black opaque kind, and the transparent kind.

 

Now if I was exploring an area to remove the opaque FoW, there would be places that I couldn't go due to my way being blocked or there really being no reason to go there (because that area was only for aesthetics purposes or it was a huge lake - somthing like that). So that area would remain opaque black and I would never be able to see the entire map. Sometimes it might not have much mattered (if there is an endless ocean that reaches to the edges of the area, but at other times, there would be actual parts of a city or dungeon that might not be involved in the action, but were aesthetically pleasing to look at.

 

I know that there were ways to circumvent around this (explore() function or something like that - A lot of mods were made for this, or the clairvoyance spell but that only worked for outdoors maps and so you are still left with dungeons) but then you saw the entire city/dungeon before you had explored it (making you possibly aware of things you shouldn't have been).

 

A big reason I'm buying this game is because I think that the IE games with the isometric views were aesthetically pleasing to look at. But I absolutely abhorred when I couldn't disperse the FoW from an area just because I couldn't walk there. I also didn't like that the whole city would have been explored when I arrived there for the first time (oh wow, I've never been here before but my area map shows everything!).

 

Please Obsidian, do something about this tragedy. I'm not sure if clairvoyance was supposed to never work with indoors maps, but please let me see the entire map somehow. If you have to implement some sort of "synchronize viewpoint" method like they do in Assassin's Creed where once you reach a certain location you can see the entire map, so be it. Just don't let me lose out on the beautiful artwork of your employees.

 

Possible remedies (I don't really like many of them, but they're just ideas):

 

1- Allow players the opportunity to buy maps from storekeeps for areas that they wish to explore in the future (probably only cities, never dungeons) so as to give a reason why the outdoors in the cities is transparent. Maybe do something similar in dungeons where you can find a map that has explored the area map for you.

 

2- Make an indoors "clairvoyance-type" spell but with a smaller area of effect. I believe Warcraft III did something like this called "Farsight." I don't care that I have to cast that spell a hundred times - let me see everything (my OCD demands it!).

 

3- As previously mentioned some sort of synchronize area/ explore()=1 point in the map that allows me to see it. I really hate this idea.

 

Edit: This is what I'm talking about:

 

This is our beloved screencapture. This area has been set as "indoors" for this example. There will be similarly beautiful images in dungeons that will definitely be set as "indoors" for so-called "stealth" purposes and not knowing the dungeon map will be important.

 

This is possibly the locations that our adventurers can walk.

 

 

And finally, I'm sad to say but this would be what the map would have looked like if I played vanilla BG2.

 

 

I know nobody wants that. Especially Hector.

Edited October 13, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Shevek]

I disagree with this. You fail to mention how taking out "opaque" FoW would further diminish the value of stealth play.

[Hormalakh]

No, I'm not asking to take out opaque FoW. I want opaque FoW. I just want it to play a part only when it matters. I want to beat the area and after I've done so. I want to sit there and enjoy the beautifully drawn area on my huge monitor, without spots of black that I could just never get rid of.

 

I don't really like any of my ideas much. I just don't know how to fix this problem. I'm hoping others agree with me that this is a problem and come up with more innovative solutions than I have.

 

 

Here is an example. Notice the huge cone-like top of the entrance there? Well, if you were to explore this map by just walking you would never be able to see that top there regardless of how much you explored every inch of that map. There was just no way to show the whole thing. Of course, I wouldn't want to know the layout of this map before I played through it, but once I've been through this map 50 times, I'd really like to see the whole map and enjoy the fine intricacies of it.

 

I'm coming up with another example too and I'll put it in my first post as an edit.

Edited October 13, 2012 by Hormalakh

[rjshae]

They could remove the FoW for the "Casual Gamer" mode.

[Hormalakh]

No they shouldn't. I don't want FoW off. I want it on. Opaque as well as transparent. Just don't make me suffer through what I put up on my first post. Look at the images. It'll make more sense.

[Osvir]

I want to beat the area and after I've done so. I want to sit there and enjoy the beautifully drawn area on my huge monitor, without spots of black that I could just never get rid of.

 

I agree with Hormalakh and I see his point, not something I would like to see either. I'd want to explore the entire area and appreciate the art.

 

I suggested some sort of Clairvoyance (Farsight) ability for Wizards that only work out of doors in another thread. However, I realize now that it could ruin a lot as well as I could simply enter an area and explore it entirely by this ability to see where all the enemies are. It could be a "Remove Fog of War" only (more like an art appreciation ability primarily, e.g., it can't detect enemies) or when you press "M" it could remove the dark Fog of War (but it would still be transparent so you'd still not see the enemies).

 

It could also be a "tactical" ability with a massive cooldown (So you'd have to wait around a long time before you could use it again, you could probably clear one area with enemies and use it once or twice if you'd use it carefully and ideally).

Edited October 13, 2012 by Osvir

[Hormalakh]

I want to beat the area and after I've done so. I want to sit there and enjoy the beautifully drawn area on my huge monitor, without spots of black that I could just never get rid of.

 

I agree with Hormalakh and I see his point, not something I would like to see either. I'd want to explore the entire area and appreciate the art.

 

I suggested some sort of Clairvoyance (Farsight) ability for Wizards that only work out of doors in another thread. However, I realize now that it could ruin a lot as well as I could simply enter an area and explore it entirely by this ability to see where all the enemies are. It could be a "Remove Fog of War" only (more like an art appreciation ability primarily, e.g., it can't detect enemies) or when you press "M" it could remove the dark Fog of War (but it would still be transparent so you'd still not see the enemies).

 

It could also be a "tactical" ability with a massive cooldown (So you'd have to wait around a long time before you could use it again, you could probably clear one area with enemies and use it once or twice if you'd use it carefully and ideally).

 

See I kind of like this idea. Make it a Level 8 spell scroll that you can only purchase from a few shopkeeps around the whole realm. Make enough of them for many (but not necessarily all) the maps in the game. Make it expensive. Then make it late game. So I can go back and see those dungeons fully. Make it an acheivement to "find all 'Farsight' scrolls" in the game if you want. Just let me see the whole area.

[Osvir]

See I kind of like this idea. Make it a Level 8 spell scroll that you can only purchase from a few shopkeeps around the whole realm. Make enough of them for many (but not necessarily all) the maps in the game. Make it expensive. Then make it late game. So I can go back and see those dungeons fully. Make it an acheivement to "find all 'Farsight' scrolls" in the game if you want. Just let me see the whole area.

 

A Rogue could get a utility "Flare" ability (what with the gunpowder and all), or it could be an item you can buy (with an equal cooldown like the "Farsight" thing). Personally I haven't had much trouble in exploring the dungeons, it's been mostly the "surface" that's been the frustration. Nonetheless, I think Obsidian has gotten the idea and I hope they will device something interesting. I'm curious if anyone at Obs are "OCD" about this

 

There should totally be an Achievement in the game if you remove 100% Fog of War xD "Destroyer of Fog" or "Bringer of Light", or perhaps just plain and honestly "You are truly OCD" xD

[teknoman2]

the whole thing could be fixed with realistic line of sight. instead of having our characters able to see things up to 50-60 feet away (so standing in the center of a 100x100 feet room you cant see the walls), they should be able to see as far as the eye goes so long as there are no obstructions, and keep a 60-70 feet area for indentifying things around the character.

to make it simple, you are in a 100x100 room. you get to see the whole room (no black fog) as long as there are no columns, bookcases, and so on that block the view, but you get a "grey" fog after 70ft so you can't see the enemy if he is not in that range (or speaking of external areas, you can see the house from 500ft away, but you cant see the kids playing in front of it unless you get closer) and if you press tab you can highlight what's in that 70ft circle. also you get a 30ft circle for spoting traps and hidden doors, meaning the character must be 30ft or less from the trap to spot it.

[Osvir]

That works too, an ability just seems more fun. And it's part of my evil plan to make people use Clairvoyance much more in League of Legends

[ImRhoven]

If the real LoS solution, which I like a lot, proves unattainable for some reason, a simple console command to clear the FOW would be good.

[Hormalakh]

the whole thing could be fixed with realistic line of sight. instead of having our characters able to see things up to 50-60 feet away (so standing in the center of a 100x100 feet room you cant see the walls), they should be able to see as far as the eye goes so long as there are no obstructions, and keep a 60-70 feet area for indentifying things around the character.

to make it simple, you are in a 100x100 room. you get to see the whole room (no black fog) as long as there are no columns, bookcases, and so on that block the view, but you get a "grey" fog after 70ft so you can't see the enemy if he is not in that range (or speaking of external areas, you can see the house from 500ft away, but you cant see the kids playing in front of it unless you get closer) and if you press tab you can highlight what's in that 70ft circle. also you get a 30ft circle for spoting traps and hidden doors, meaning the character must be 30ft or less from the trap to spot it.

 

The only problem that can occur is if the art is something that your character can't see in a Line of Sight, but that you as the player would like to see. You also have problems with "should line of sight change at night and day, in weather, etc" Take the dungeon picture I showed in the beginning with the cone-head. Even line of sight shouldn't show the top of that. It's technically too high up.

 

Console command could work too.

[Infinitron]

You need to combine line of sight with the traditional method. It's annoying when you get stuck with tiny black spots because you didn't peek into some blind corner.

[Jobby]

Yeah unremovable FOW is a pain in the arse, could they just make it so that when you stand adjacent to unwalkable areas the whole thing becomes visible? I like the idea of having abilitys that remove FOW for tactical reasons but i do think it would be a little silly to have to utilise them just to see the artists beautifully drawn background, surely they can code something in with the walkable and unwalkable tiles?

[JFSOCC]

or how about if you've cleared the map for 93% the rest gets filled in as well.

[Jobby]

That would solve the problem afor completions sake however if the fog of war suddenly dissapeared over a nicely rendered pond as you approached its banks your eye would be drawn to it at the time of approaching it which i think would give the game quite a nice immersive exploration aspect.

[Sacred_Path]

I'm in favor of traits/ feats that increase your viewing area (realistic LoS notwithstanding). It's obvious use would be scouting, but could just as well be used for clearing FoW. I can't see myself backtracking late in the game just to see a map in its entirety.

 

Add a stackable feat that increases your view by a small increment every time you pick that feat. To make it worthwhile, it should also increase the distance at which you can use bows, crossbows and rifles by the same margin. So if you want to have that super scout/ sniper you need to concentrate on it feat-wise.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Sacred_Path

[rjshae]

I'd rather not have the FoW easily removed, even if you bought a map. But I could live with a clairvoyance spell.

[Hormalakh]

I can't see myself backtracking late in the game just to see a map in its entirety.

 

I, on the other hand, would. I like the art.

[Hormalakh]

I'd rather not have the FoW easily removed, even if you bought a map. But I could live with a clairvoyance spell.

 

But a clairvoyance is even easier to use. A "map" that you could purchase after running through the map would be nice for those of us interested in the art for art's sake.

[Sacred_Path]

I, on the other hand, would. I like the art.

 

y u no look it up on Gamebanshee?

[maggotheart]

This seems like it should be simple but the more you think about it, the less clear the solution is.

 

The idea I like the best so far is maps, maybe on each level of the underground or indoor area there is a hidden map you can find that removes the black FoW but keeps the grey one. The map could be placed in such a way that you have to clear the major part of the area before you can find it (the boss drops it, or it's hidden near where you leave the area). Or, in the case of dungeons the level 1 map is hidden on floor 2 and so on.

 

There could be a map vendor (cartographer) that provides some maps - of certain outdoor areas lets say - but they are expensive, and the more you have explored the area, the more the price drops. So, its 1000gp to purchase it before you have visited the area, but after exploring 90% of the area, the price of the map drops accordingly to 100gp. So if you want the map for tactical purposes there is a cost in gp but if you just want it for aesthetic purposes you don't have to pay nearly as much.

[Hormalakh]

1- I paid for the game to get the highest resolution of the image. Why do I have to go to a secondary site to get that image? That's ridiculous.

2- This shouldn't be that hard of a fix.

3- Other people (like me) don't know Gamebanshee has this sort of thing. Are we going to say in-game "If you want the full image for your viewing pleasure, please check out Gamebanshee?"

4- I like to be able to sit back and view the image while playing. Sometimes its good to be an atmosphere-nerd once in a while. Especially if the art is good.

5- I have to wait for the Gamebanshee nerds to actually finish the game before I can get this? No thanks.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Hormalakh]

This seems like it should be simple but the more you think about it, the less clear the solution is.

 

The idea I like the best so far is maps, maybe on each level of the underground or indoor area there is a hidden map you can find that removes the black FoW but keeps the grey one. The map could be placed in such a way that you have to clear the major part of the area before you can find it (the boss drops it, or it's hidden near where you leave the area). Or, in the case of dungeons the level 1 map is hidden on floor 2 and so on.

 

There could be a map vendor (cartographer) that provides some maps - of certain outdoor areas lets say - but they are expensive, and the more you have explored the area, the more the price drops. So, its 1000gp to purchase it before you have visited the area, but after exploring 90% of the area, the price of the map drops accordingly to 100gp. So if you want the map for tactical purposes there is a cost in gp but if you just want it for aesthetic purposes you don't have to pay nearly as much.

 

1000 gp is low IMO. Make it 200000 gp to start.

[maggotheart]

This seems like it should be simple but the more you think about it, the less clear the solution is.

 

The idea I like the best so far is maps, maybe on each level of the underground or indoor area there is a hidden map you can find that removes the black FoW but keeps the grey one. The map could be placed in such a way that you have to clear the major part of the area before you can find it (the boss drops it, or it's hidden near where you leave the area). Or, in the case of dungeons the level 1 map is hidden on floor 2 and so on.

 

There could be a map vendor (cartographer) that provides some maps - of certain outdoor areas lets say - but they are expensive, and the more you have explored the area, the more the price drops. So, its 1000gp to purchase it before you have visited the area, but after exploring 90% of the area, the price of the map drops accordingly to 100gp. So if you want the map for tactical purposes there is a cost in gp but if you just want it for aesthetic purposes you don't have to pay nearly as much.

 

1000 gp is low IMO. Make it 200000 gp to start.

 

Right, just something significant whatever that is, so you can't just spoil all the areas for nothing, but you can take a peek if you are willing to pay.