Dwarf Society

[Volourn]

I really hope there's a lot to dwarf society found in the game 9and not just a ssilly abckground lore). There should be at least one reasonably sized dwarven settlement and 1 or 2 dwarf joinable npcs. And, major quests involving dwarfs. Also, a romance with thats exy female dwraf they've alreayd advertised. L0L.

 

The dwarf areas was by far the best, most inetretsing and deepest part of DA. Let's keep that trend going and up the ante.

 

LONG LIVE DWARVES DEATH TO ELVES!

[nikolokolus]

r00fles?

[DRevan]

Judging by Sawyer's latest update, it seems that ethnicities in this world aren't race exclusive(like that Vaailians who are mostly human with dwarf minority). Which is kinda of a weird twist.

Edited October 12, 2012 by DRevan

[melkathi]

Judging by Sawyer's latest update, it seems that ethnicities in this world aren't race exclusive(like that Vaailians who are mostly human with dwarf minority). Which is kinda of a weird twist.

 

In a way similar to Tarant from Arcanum then?

 

I don't mind mixed species ethnicities. As long as it's done well (of course that is the case with anything, right?)

[DRevan]

Judging by Sawyer's latest update, it seems that ethnicities in this world aren't race exclusive(like that Vaailians who are mostly human with dwarf minority). Which is kinda of a weird twist.

 

In a way similar to Tarant from Arcanum then?

 

I don't mind mixed species ethnicities. As long as it's done well (of course that is the case with anything, right?)

 

I don't remember much from Arcanum, but here are some quotes from the latest update:

 

Ethnic Aedyr (mostly humans and elves) have fair skin and a variety of hair and eye colors, with blue and green being common.

 

Ethnic Vailians (humans and a small number of dwarves) have dark brown skin and tightly spiraled, dark brown hair.

 

So groups within an ethnicity share similar coloring but belong to different races...

Intredasting. I hope they will release more info about it.

Edited October 12, 2012 by DRevan

[melkathi]

 

So groups within an ethnicity share similar coloring but belong to different races...

Intredasting. I hope they will release more info about it.

 

Makes sense though. If pigmentation is an evolutionary response to the environment, then related species (because let's face it, there isn't that much difference between an elf and a dwarf or a human) within the same environment would, over the hundreds or thousands of years develop similar traits, no?

[Volourn]

"(because let's face it, there isn't that much difference between an elf and a dwarf or a human) "

 

That's not true. Not if you do them right. The difference between dwarf and elf is more than height or where they live.

[DRevan]

So groups within an ethnicity share similar coloring but belong to different races...

Intredasting. I hope they will release more info about it.

 

Makes sense though. If pigmentation is an evolutionary response to the environment, then related species (because let's face it, there isn't that much difference between an elf and a dwarf or a human) within the same environment would, over the hundreds or thousands of years develop similar traits, no?

 

I don't think so. I mean, you can still tell apart Scandinavians from Samis, despite the fact that both groups lived side by side for thousands of years.

I think it's race-mixing. Maybe it's like in Tolkien's world, where an offspring of a mixed couple will take the features of only one race, no "middle ground".

Perhaps in PE's world coloring is passable from both parents, but not bone structure(does it even make sense)?

[melkathi]

"(because let's face it, there isn't that much difference between an elf and a dwarf or a human) "

 

That's not true. Not if you do them right. The difference between dwarf and elf is more than height or where they live.

 

No the difference between the two has always been mostly about culture and magic affinity. Biological differences have hardly been explored. Dwarves are short and have beards, elves are svelte and have pointy ears. Besides that there is no percieved biological difference.

The differences from there in high fantasy come from cultural, societal reasons. Elves are a reflection of an idealised nobility coupled with a romanticised return to magic and nature. Their appearance is based on that, not on Elven biology.

Dwarves, usually crafty miners reflect a working class, their skin is leathery, their hand calloused from hard work. But that makes their appearance based on their society, not on what truly would affect the genetics.

If dwarves as a species developed below ground, would they in reality not be far more sensitive to light? After all, so many fantasy settings have dwarves that never go above ground. Take Dragon Age for example that you mentioned in the first post: most dwarves never leave their underground kingdom. Yet their vision is perfectly fine above ground with a bright, glaring sun, while below ground, where their species has live for thousands of years, they need torches and artifical light the same as hmans do. Their skin is tanned as if they had been plowing fields all day all their life.

Usually in fantasy, elves, dwarves but also to a certain extent the human nations have physical traits slapped on to reflect the cultural role they play. The actual biology is usually left out. It works the way it is, but as DRevan says, it is interesting to see Obsidian going that extra bit and looking at it at that slightly deeper level. It actually seems to be a sign that they are taking the world creation serious.

[melkathi]

 

I don't think so. I mean, you can still tell apart Scandinavians from Samis, despite the fact that both groups lived side by side for thousands of years.

I think it's race-mixing. Maybe it's like in Tolkien's world, where an offspring of a mixed couple will take the features of only one race, no "middle ground".

Perhaps in PE's world coloring is passable from both parents, but not bone structure(does it even make sense)?

 

Guess we'll see. But at least they have given it some thought. I'm happy with that.

[Monte Carlo]

Volourn has been obsessed with Dwarves for as long as I can remember. It's a harmless fixation, although I suspect the integration of demi-human and humans in the same culture might irk him slightly.

 

As a traditionalist, I am fond of red-beared Scottish dwarves and therefore have a soupçon of sympathy for his position.

[melkathi]

Volourn has been obsessed with Dwarves for as long as I can remember. It's a harmless fixation, although I suspect the integration of demi-human and humans in the same culture might irk him slightly.

 

As a traditionalist, I am fond of red-beared Scottish dwarves and therefore have a soupçon of sympathy for his position.

 

I prefer they stick to traditional than to not explore any changes they do "correctly". But if there is actually thought behind anything they do, then I'm all for it.

 

What irks me sometimes is when fantasy settings introduce artifical distinctions within a species just to add variety. If hill dwarf has sandy, blond hair while a mountain dwar has black hair, for example, just because they have to have a difference.

[Volourn]

"Volourn has been obsessed with Dwarves for as long as I can remember. It's a harmless fixation, although I suspect the integration of demi-human and humans in the same culture might irk him slightly.

 

As a traditionalist, I am fond of red-beared Scottish dwarves and therefore have a soupçon of sympathy for his position."

 

I wouldn't mind some mixing but there should still be groups/cities/culttures of dwarves who for whatever reason live seperately.

 

Dwraves have integrated before. Myth Drannor is noteably for being a city that was home to both elves and dwarves. The largest human cities in the Realms also tend to have sizeable demi human populations as well. 'Race mixing' isn't new.

 

Though, it seems that Obsidian is taking it a step further which is a GOOD thing. But, still, perhaps, there gcould be a dwarven stronghold deep underground that has resisted the pull to mix with other races which oculd put them at odds with their kin. That's good stuff.

[Ausir]

As far as I know, the races don't actually interbreed in this setting, even if cultures are multi-racial.

[Messier-31]

Does she look like a dwarf?

[gkathellar]

So groups within an ethnicity share similar coloring but belong to different races...

Intredasting. I hope they will release more info about it.

They touch on it in Aloth's backstory - distribution of power in Aedyr along species lines is actually pretty complex, and generally designed to work around the very different length of human and elven lifetimes. IIRC, the ruling class has a human core, with an elven advisory caste that is bound to the rulers via symbolic marriage.

 

You also get some exposure to Glanfathan species issues (being an elven/orlan society) in Twin Elms, where one of the big war leaders (an elf) makes it apparent that he's prejudiced against orlans of the Fisher Crane tribe.

 

Also, a romance with thats exy female dwraf they've alreayd advertised.

 

Even if they were ever going to do romances, I feel I should point out that she's married. With five kids.

[rheingold]

Go dwarves!

 

Looking forward to:

 

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kingartgames/the-dwarves-a-new-storydriven-fantasy-rpg?ref=email

 

Though to be honest I have never heard of these guys, still it has dwarves!

[the_dog_days]

As far as I know, the races don't actually interbreed in this setting, even if cultures are multi-racial.

This is what Aloth says and I take it to be cannon. It makes sense if you think about it, if each species evolved independently members of different species wouldn't be able to produce offspring. Even with closely related species like donkeys and horses can only produce one generation of offspring because the children are sterile.

[gkathellar]

 

As far as I know, the races don't actually interbreed in this setting, even if cultures are multi-racial.

This is what Aloth says and I take it to be cannon. It makes sense if you think about it, if each species evolved independently members of different species wouldn't be able to produce offspring. Even with closely related species like donkeys and horses can only produce one generation of offspring because the children are sterile.

Well, some mule mares actually are fertile, and breed true with a horse or donkey sire. It's exceptionally rare, but it happens.

 

Not that this is in any way relevant.

 

Presumably elves and humans have greater chromosomal incompatibilities than donkeys and horses, since elves live hundreds of years.

[Alexander1]

One thing that disappointed me about BG2 was the lack of dwarves of any real substance (the only dwarf companion was a mindlessly evil character to the point that he was two-dimensional). 

 

Dwarves are often misunderstood by writers as they've evolved in fiction (bearing in mind that nearly all these fantasy games borrow from Tolkien -- included Dungeons and Dragons which ripped some of its initial concepts straight out of Tolkien's books). 

 

Arcanum did a pretty decent job of avoiding existing misconceptions, but made them more technological than the craftsman/builders of Middle-earth.  Warhammer does them more justice than D&D ever has, but even then they're different, and a bit less complicated.  Personally, I have yet to see a fantasy game that really does them true justice.  As Tolkien once described them: "Fast in friendship, and in enmity, they endure hardship more heartily than all other speaking peoples."

 

Look no further than Norse and Slavic mythologies for the scope of their cultural influences -- there's a wealth of inspiration to their race, even if most fantasy settings never really seem to get them quite right. 

Edited September 23, 2015 by Alexander1

[the_dog_days]

 

 

As far as I know, the races don't actually interbreed in this setting, even if cultures are multi-racial.

This is what Aloth says and I take it to be cannon. It makes sense if you think about it, if each species evolved independently members of different species wouldn't be able to produce offspring. Even with closely related species like donkeys and horses can only produce one generation of offspring because the children are sterile.

Well, some mule mares actually are fertile, and breed true with a horse or donkey sire. It's exceptionally rare, but it happens.

 

Not that this is in any way relevant.

 

Presumably elves and humans have greater chromosomal incompatibilities than donkeys and horses, since elves live hundreds of years.

In my defense, I grew up on a cattle ranch, not a studding farm.

[rheingold]

How did we get here from dwarves!

Sometimes I wonder....

[the_dog_days]

How did we get here from dwarves!

Sometimes I wonder....

Dwarves, cattle. They're both subterranean herbivores bred for their prowess in crafting and tasty flesh.

[gkathellar]

Dwarves are often misunderstood by writers as they've evolved in fiction

The thing is, dwarves aren't real. There's nothing to be "misunderstood." Just because Tolkein did them one way doesn't make that the right way, only his way. His ideas have been borrowed, sure; every writer borrows ideas and makes those ideas their own.

 

Tolkein was no exception to this. His dwarves bear at best a superficial resemblance to the dvergar of Norse myth, and are by his own admission really meant as a fantastic counterpart to the Jews in his fundamentally Catholic setting. Certainly they serve as the source material for others, but when the source material is itself an adaptation, can it have preeminence?

 

Mythological accounts are too unclear and contradictory to turn to. Characteristics attributed to dwarves vary wildly with period and province (as myths tend to). In some cases dvergar are a unique class of being, and in others the name is synonymous with the swartalfr - dark elves.

 

Dwarves are a ridiculous amalgam of vaguely related or entirely unrelated mythological, historical, and cultural images. They are an idea that the fantasy genre has built for itself, on itself, out of itself, through the contributions of countless individuals. What an author chooses to take from that knot of an idea can only be right or wrong for that author - the beauty of fiction is that it can be whatever the hell the author wants it to be. There is no Platonic form of dwarfiness to misunderstand, only a set of ideas to reinvent as one sees fit.

Edited September 23, 2015 by gkathellar

[pi2repsion]

An impressive act of Necromancy has been observed: gkathellar answering 3 year old questions.

 

Oh, well, the thread seems to be progressing nicely after that, but it was a bit surprising to see.