German Translation - Deutsche Übersetzung

[HumanFlesh+5]

Hey to everyone out there. At first a big THANK YOU for the decision to offer a German Version, I really appreciate this! This is a thread concerning the German translation, thus I think it will only concern German speaking people. That is why i will continue in German (the other reason: it is a lot easier for me).

 

Ich weiß nicht wie viele deutschsprechende Menschen sich hier herumtreiben, aber ich versuche einfach mal mein Glück. Obwohl ich Englisch recht gut verstehe und die originale Version des Spiels wahrscheinlich kein Problem für mich darstellen wird, freue ich mich wirklich sehr darüber, dass es eine Möglichkeit geben wird das Spiel in Deutsch zu spielen. So sehr wie ich mich darüber freue, so sehr befürchte ich auch, dass in dieser Hinsicht die (meiner Meinung nach) falschen Schwerpunkte gesetzt werden könnten. Mal abgesehen davon keinen Abkürzungsmüll zu bauen wie damals bei Oblivion, bangt es mir vielmehr davor, dass etwas wie bei NWN2 passieren könnte:

 

Betroffen ist in diesem Fall die Sprachausgabe (falls es eine geben sollte). Bitte benutzt für alle eindeutig selbst erdachten Eigennamen eine deutsche Aussprache. Dies würde sich viel harmonischer in das gesamte Klangbild der Übersetzung einfügen und nicht wie Anglizismus-Dissonanzen im deutschen Sprachgefüge hängen. Auch die Aussprache der Namen mancher NPCs blieben englisch, obwohl sie keinen eindeutigen Bezug zur englischsprachigen Kultur hatten. Beispiel: Casavir (eher lateinisch: vir = Mann) oder Faerun (klar ein Name der einer erdachten Kultur entspringt). Die Gründe die Aussprache einzudeutschen sind dafür meiner Meinung nach:

 

1. Das Gesprochene wirkt in sich stimmiger bzw. nativer und legt seine Pseudocoolness ab (die find ich schon seit ich 16 war nicht mehr toll)

2. Der englische Klang in deutscher Sprache bewirkt immer eine Art Verschleierung, während die deutsche Ausspreche direkter und konsequenter klingt.

3. Wer die englischen Begriffe/Ausspreche lieber mag (was ich absolut verstehen kann) der kann auch die originale Version spielen, deswegen ist in dieser Hinsicht trollen unsinnig.

 

Was mir auch wichtig ist, ist die konsequenter Übersetzung aller englischen Wörter in Ortsnamen, bzw. bestimmter Organisationen. Ich weiß, dass sind Eigennamen, aber wer die englisch haben will, der spielt es einfach auf englisch. Elfische Namen oder ähnliches sind davon natürlich nicht betroffen, es geht mir nur um englische Wörter.

 

Ich gehe davon aus, dass ich nicht allzu viele Befürworter finden werde. Aber es ist kein Grund zu flamen, ich denke mit meiner Meinung kann ich es mal probieren. )

Edited October 9, 2012 by HumanFlesh+5

[Althernai]

As a general rule, non-English threads are frowned upon because neither most of the moderators nor most of the developers can understand what you are saying and they can't be bothered to run every post through Google Translate.

 

Regarding the actual topic: if you want names to have a different pronunciation than that given to them by Obsidian, you are asking much of the translator. Some translators do it, others do not and in either case, somebody is going to be angry at them. It's really a personal preference.

[HumanFlesh+5]

Well, i looked for a german section in the forum and i couldn't find it. So i thought it would be okay to make a semi german thread. But knowing that, i would say the thread can be closed.

Edited October 10, 2012 by HumanFlesh+5

[Tigranes]

We can leave the thread open, trusting for now that you haven't filled it with pornographic poetry or something. But yes, we'd appreciate the ensuing conversation to be in English, primarily so that we can all participate.

[Farudan]

@HumanFlesh+5:

 

I understand your concerns and Obsidian is aware as well. It was also in the daily Q&As in the Kickstarter comments. Feargus answer was, that they have learned their lessons since the old days of Baldur's Gate. He absolutely knows about the saxon elves. I also hinted at Roland Austinat who worked on the translations of New Vegas and Skyrim for Bethesda, that are considered to be good translations.

 

Regarding the pronounciations I don't think one can give a general rule. I want to use german translation of A song of Ice and Fire as an example. In my opinion, the first translation that used the english names as Martin used them as well, fits better to the setting. Because ASoIaF is heavily influenced by british Middle Ages. Switching the names to german lookalikes also changes reception of the whole story, because names can also create imaginations and connect to cultural references. So I would say, this is a decision that has to be made individually. Everything else would be like a desperate struggle to avoid foreign words. And to be fair, you would never translate Jerry Cotton to Jeremias Baumwolle.

Edited October 10, 2012 by Farudan

[dlux]

The thread is fine, nothing obscene.

 

He wants the translation to not only include the basic text, but the names of places, people, etc. as well. In other words, a complete translation. He argues that the translation then sounds more direct; And if any one wants English names in a game, that they should then play it in English. Fantasy names (Edair, Cadegund, etc.) should not be translated, because they are not English.

 

For example: Samuel Cooke -> Samuel Koch; Knights Valley -> Rittertal; Sunset Sarsaparilla -> Abendrot Sarsaparille

[Jasede]

I would agree it's a personal preference but I'm with OP: if there is German voice-acting in the German version (and I highly doubt that'll be the case) I'd also prefer all unique names (such as Casavir or Faerun) to be pronounced as if read by a German. There's an unhappy dissonance when you mix English phonemes with German ones.

[J.E. Sawyer]

We try to put pronunciation notes for every non-English word/name in our text notes. In some cases, we are trying to evoke a certain real-world correlation with spelling and pronunciation, z.B. the Vailian Republics are supposed to seem like Italian city-states, so when someone reads "Ancenze", the sound is important.

 

I understand your concerns and Obsidian is aware as well. It was also in the daily Q&As in the Kickstarter comments. Feargus answer was, that they have learned their lessons since the old days of Baldur's Gate. He absolutely knows about the saxon elves.

Hast du eine Problem mit Elfen von Leipzig und bayerischen Paladine?

[Hopper]

Hey to everyone out there. At first a big THANK YOU for the decision to offer a German Version, I really appreciate this! This is a thread concerning the German translation, thus I think it will only concern German speaking people. That is why i will continue in German (the other reason: it is a lot easier for me).

 

Ich weiß nicht wie viele deutschsprechende Menschen sich hier herumtreiben, aber ich versuche einfach mal mein Glück. Obwohl ich Englisch recht gut verstehe und die originale Version des Spiels wahrscheinlich kein Problem für mich darstellen wird, freue ich mich wirklich sehr darüber, dass es eine Möglichkeit geben wird das Spiel in Deutsch zu spielen. So sehr wie ich mich darüber freue, so sehr befürchte ich auch, dass in dieser Hinsicht die (meiner Meinung nach) falschen Schwerpunkte gesetzt werden könnten. Mal abgesehen davon keinen Abkürzungsmüll zu bauen wie damals bei Oblivion, bangt es mir vielmehr davor, dass etwas wie bei NWN2 passieren könnte:

 

Betroffen ist in diesem Fall die Sprachausgabe (falls es eine geben sollte). Bitte benutzt für alle eindeutig selbst erdachten Eigennamen eine deutsche Aussprache. Dies würde sich viel harmonischer in das gesamte Klangbild der Übersetzung einfügen und nicht wie Anglizismus-Dissonanzen im deutschen Sprachgefüge hängen. Auch die Aussprache der Namen mancher NPCs blieben englisch, obwohl sie keinen eindeutigen Bezug zur englischsprachigen Kultur hatten. Beispiel: Casavir (eher lateinisch: vir = Mann) oder Faerun (klar ein Name der einer erdachten Kultur entspringt). Die Gründe die Aussprache einzudeutschen sind dafür meiner Meinung nach:

 

1. Das Gesprochene wirkt in sich stimmiger bzw. nativer und legt seine Pseudocoolness ab (die find ich schon seit ich 16 war nicht mehr toll)

2. Der englische Klang in deutscher Sprache bewirkt immer eine Art Verschleierung, während die deutsche Ausspreche direkter und konsequenter klingt.

3. Wer die englischen Begriffe/Ausspreche lieber mag (was ich absolut verstehen kann) der kann auch die originale Version spielen, deswegen ist in dieser Hinsicht trollen unsinnig.

 

Was mir auch wichtig ist, ist die konsequenter Übersetzung aller englischen Wörter in Ortsnamen, bzw. bestimmter Organisationen. Ich weiß, dass sind Eigennamen, aber wer die englisch haben will, der spielt es einfach auf englisch. Elfische Namen oder ähnliches sind davon natürlich nicht betroffen, es geht mir nur um englische Wörter.

 

Ich gehe davon aus, dass ich nicht allzu viele Befürworter finden werde. Aber es ist kein Grund zu flamen, ich denke mit meiner Meinung kann ich es mal probieren. )

 

Quick and dirty translation, it is 3 am after all:

Text in [ ] are additions I made for ease of reading

 

I am not sure how many German-speaking folks are present here, but I'll try my luck. Though I am able to speak English fairly well and don't think [playing] the original version of the game will be difficult for me, I am really happy that a German version will be available. I may be happy about it, however, at the same time I fear some aspects of the localisation could go wrong (from my point of view). The usage of incomprehensible abbreviations as in Oblivion aside, I am more worried they could go down the same road as NWN2 did:

 

The issues I see concern spoken dialogue (if applicable): I believe German pronunciation should be used for all made up names. This would result in a far more natural overall tone of the localisation and would not introduce anglicism-related dissonances into the German dialogue. [in NWN2] the names of some NPCs were pronounced the English way as well, even though there was no direct relation to English culture/origin to be found in these names. An example: Casavir (likely Latin: vir = man) or Faerun (clearly a name derived from a fictious culture). In my opinion, the following arguments support a German pronunciation of these names [in the localisation]:

 

1. The spoken dialogue will sound more harmonious and natural and will not seem artificially trimmed towards being "cool" (I have disliked that ever sine I was 16) [translator's comment: in German, pronouncing names the English way is sometimes used as an attempt to show how hip/cool a product is, this usually does not work with audiences age 20 and up]

2. English pronunciation in between German dialogue always results in an obscuration, while German pronunciation sounds more direct and consistent.

3. Those who prefer the English terms/pronunciation (which I can perfectly understand) are free to play the original version, so please don't troll my post.

 

Another important aspect, in my opinion, is that in all English words contained in the names of places or organizations should be localised. I know that these are proper names, but If you like them in English, you can play the English version. Elfish names or other similar terms [from made up languages] are exempt from this, of course. I am only talking about English words here.

 

However, I doubt many will share my opinion. Still, no need to flame, I just thought I'd add my two cents.

 

I hope you don't mind HumanFlesh+5, but I feel it is a very valid point everyone should be able to read ;-)

If you think I got anything wrong, just let me know and I'll fix it.

Edited October 10, 2012 by Hopper

[Farudan]

Hast du eine Problem mit Elfen von Leipzig und bayerischen Paladine?

Hehe, not at all. Just thought "Ru-hä, jetzt spricht der Sarevok" didn't make Sarevok appear as impressive as if he had used common tongue. But that was the opionion of my juvenile rebel Ego. Now I think I have something for my grand-children to tell.

[dlux]

We try to put pronunciation notes for every non-English word/name in our text notes. In some cases, we are trying to evoke a certain real-world correlation with spelling and pronunciation, z.B. the Vailian Republics are supposed to seem like Italian city-states, so when someone reads "Ancenze", the sound is important.

 

I understand your concerns and Obsidian is aware as well. It was also in the daily Q&As in the Kickstarter comments. Feargus answer was, that they have learned their lessons since the old days of Baldur's Gate. He absolutely knows about the saxon elves.

Hast du eine Problem mit Elfen von Leipzig und bayerischen Paladine?

Sächselnde Elfen... that is like having Elves that talk like Cowboys with a thick southern American accent. ^^

Edited October 10, 2012 by dlux

[Gorth]

Why am I thinking about buxom dwarven maids in dirndls serving humongous beer steins for dwarwen patrons in lederhosen now?

 

Edit: I suppose the obvious answer is, it's Oktober now.

[melkathi]

 

For example: Samuel Cooke -> Samuel Koch; Knights Valley -> Rittertal; Sunset Sarsaparilla -> Abendrot Sarsaparille

 

 

I hope those are the wrong examples. It should be english names were there is no relation to an english speaking culture. Sunset Sarsaparilla and the rest of the Fallout universe are in the US, the english names belong there. What I hope the OP is refering to is having a game translated into german but having to still enter the "Endless Paths" instead of the "Unendlichen Pfade" (oder so) makes no sense.

At least that is how I want to understand the OP

[melkathi]

 

Hehe, not at all. Just thought "Ru-hä, jetzt spricht der Sarevok" didn't make Sarevok appear as impressive as if he had used common tongue. But that was the opionion of my juvenile rebel Ego. Now I think I have something for my grand-children to tell.

 

And I now have an image of Werner as Sarevok.

The Lord of Murder shall perish

But in his death he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny

Bölkstoff will be sown from their passing

So sayeth the drunk Alaundo

[Farudan]

And I now have an image of Werner as Sarevok.

The Lord of Murder shall perish

But in his death he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny

Bölkstoff will be sown from their passing

So sayeth the drunk Alaundo

[Lusankya]

For example: Samuel Cooke -> Samuel Koch; Knights Valley -> Rittertal; Sunset Sarsaparilla -> Abendrot Sarsaparille

 

 

I hope those are the wrong examples. It should be english names were there is no relation to an english speaking culture. Sunset Sarsaparilla and the rest of the Fallout universe are in the US, the english names belong there. What I hope the OP is refering to is having a game translated into german but having to still enter the "Endless Paths" instead of the "Unendlichen Pfade" (oder so) makes no sense.

At least that is how I want to understand the OP

Yes, you're right. The OP's concern was about the pronunciation of non-English names in the game, he/she didn't want to translate any proper nouns.

 

E.g. Isengard in the English version of LotR has the following pronunciation: /ˈaɪzən.ɡɑrd/

But in the German version it's [ˈiːzɛn.ɡɑrd]

[DocDoomII]

We try to put pronunciation notes for every non-English word/name in our text notes. In some cases, we are trying to evoke a certain real-world correlation with spelling and pronunciation, z.B. the Vailian Republics are supposed to seem like Italian city-states, so when someone reads "Ancenze", the sound is important.

I'm italian and I have not a clue of what "Ancenze" should mean

[LordCrash]

If someone needs a good example how a BAD translation can be done, just look at the newest German book versions of A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin. The old versions stick to the fitting English proper names for characters and locations e.g. "John Snow" (character) and "King's Landing" (city). while the new versions translate even the proper names into German with no regard to the meaning of the English names. So in the new versions "John Snow" is translated into "John Schnee" which is indeed a literal translation but doesn't take into account that the name "Snow" is not a real surname but the label for a bastard child. "King's Landing" is translated to "Königsmund" which means (literally translated) "king's mouth". I don't know why it is translated like that but it's complete nonsense since the name "King's Landing" has the acutal meaning that a long time ago the first king of Westeros landed at this location with his fleet and went ashore here. The actual translation of ASOIAF is a real immersion killer.....

 

So please, Obsidian, don't translate proper names of characters and locations and also items/equipment in German!

[Sensuki]

Why am I thinking about buxom dwarven maids in dirndls serving humongous beer steins for dwarwen patrons in lederhosen now?

 

Edit: I suppose the obvious answer is, it's Oktober now.

 

I understand not being able to have boob-plate but hopefully we can have boob-cloth for such purposes as those.

[LordCrash]

Why am I thinking about buxom dwarven maids in dirndls serving humongous beer steins for dwarwen patrons in lederhosen now?

 

Edit: I suppose the obvious answer is, it's Oktober now.

If you ask a random non-German person what he/she knows about Germany or what he/she has seen of/in Germany yet you will probably get one or two of the following answers:

 

1) Oktoberfest in Munich

2) Frankfurt Airport

 

[norolim]

I don't speak German, but I agree with the OP. What he mentions is true for all languages. Not just German.

 

A fantasy RPG is usually set in a fictitious realm. The realm has its fictitious lands, cultures, races, pantheons and languages. To make things easier most fantasy worlds have one "common speech" used by the peoples of most origins and races to communicate. And this tongue is often used to name cities, regions, rivers, lakes, people etc. In case of literature, film and games this common speech is for obvious reasons represented by the language used by the authors of the work in question. In cRPGs it may, for example, be English (most cases), German (Gothic) or Polish (The Witcher). Therefore, it's natural for me that proper names that are made up of or include common words should be translated into the targed langualge. Example:

• a fictitious region called Golden Plains would be Die Goldenen Ebenen in German, Les Plaines d'Or in French (both google translator assisted, please corect if wrong) and Złote pola in Polish.
  

Examples in actual works:

• Tolkien's Middle-earth (mountain range name)
  
  • [sindarin*] Hithaeglir -> hîth (hith) mist, fog, aeglir range of mountain peaks -> [English] Misty Mountains -> [German] Das Nebelgebirge -> [French] Monts Brumeux -> [Polish] Góry Mgliste
    

  [*]The Witcher (character name)

  • [Polish]Jaskier -> [English] Dandelion** -> [German] Rittersporn -> [Russian] Лютик
    

* Sindarin - on of the Elvish languages created by J.R.R. Tolkien for Middle-earth

* Dandelion - notice that the literal translation of of the Polish Jaskier is Buttercup; this was believed to sound too feminine and was changed to Dandelion

Edited October 10, 2012 by norolim

[LordCrash]

@ norolim

 

Generally, you're right, but only if the English proper names don't have hidden or obvious meanings which can't be translated into other languages that easily. For bad examples take a look at my previous post.

[HumanFlesh+5]

If someone needs a good example how a BAD translation can be done, just look at the newest German book versions of A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin. The old versions stick to the fitting English proper names for characters and locations e.g. "John Snow" (character) and "King's Landing" (city). while the new versions translate even the proper names into German with no regard to the meaning of the English names. So in the new versions "John Snow" is translated into "John Schnee" which is indeed a literal translation but doesn't take into account that the name "Snow" is not a real surname but the label for a bastard child. "King's Landing" is translated to "Königsmund" which means (literally translated) "king's mouth". I don't know why it is translated like that but it's complete nonsense since the name "King's Landing" has the acutal meaning that a long time ago the first king of Westeros landed at this location with his fleet and went ashore here. The actual translation of ASOIAF is a real immersion killer.....

 

So please, Obsidian, don't translate proper names of characters and locations and also items/equipment in German!

 

I know this is strongly some kind a matter of taste. But i don't understand what is wrong with Königsmund instead of King's Landing, since its a metaphoric (and in my opinion quite creative) word vor bay or shore. Like you would say Felsnase for some kind of rocky ledge (?). And its named King, because it's the kind of Shore the king arrived at. And about John Snow, I have not theread books, I only watched the series, but how does rather "snow" than "Schnee" take into account that he's a bastard?

 

I know it's always a radical step to translate names, but i would like to have the same experience like an english nativespeaker that experiences all english words as some kind of familiar, because they are in his mother tongue. The fact that i can understand english quite well doesn't let me experience the world like its something homelike. I don't consider the culture of an game not to be english but to be human. So the english language in the original seems to represent our culture as mankind so that we can find our place in these crazy fantasy worlds much easier. Therefore i find the german language for german players (even though the understand english) better.

 

It's really a matter of taste and we could argue hours about this topic without coming to a conclusion. But i don't want to convince you but i hope you can at least understand my way of thinking. Because if the english words will not be translated completly than there will be no way for me to experience the game as i wished. the other way around you can still play the english original.

 

Ich habe fertig! ^^ ... for goodness sake my english is getting worse and worse.

 

I r

[Uomoz]

We try to put pronunciation notes for every non-English word/name in our text notes. In some cases, we are trying to evoke a certain real-world correlation with spelling and pronunciation, z.B. the Vailian Republics are supposed to seem like Italian city-states, so when someone reads "Ancenze", the sound is important.

I'm italian and I have not a clue of what "Ancenze" should mean

 

IT: Credo che si riferisca al fatto che la pronuncia sarebbe qualcosa tipo Firenze (la mia città *_*)

 

EN: I think he refers to the fact that the pronunciation would be like Firenze\Florence (my city *_*)

[norolim]

Generally, you're right, but only if the English proper names don't have hidden or obvious meanings which can't be translated into other languages that easily. For bad examples take a look at my previous post.

 

Well, I can't really relate to the King's Landing - Königsmund problem, as I don't know the lore, but I researched the other example you gave and I'm afraid I must disagree. The surname Snow is one of the ways to identlfy bastad children in Westeros. The others are Stone, Rivers, Waters, Pyke, Hill, Flowers, Storm and Sand and all of them are derived from or simply are common nouns. This means, that from the localization point of view, they may and imo should be translated into the target language, on condition that the usage is consistent. So, all bastard children in The North should be called [first name] Schnee in the German version of the books. English is not a language used in Westeros so why would you want to use it in the German translation? It's actually very similar to what I described above: Westeros has it's Common Tonge: the Andal language and Martin is using English to represent it. Otherwise, he would have to invent a new language and write most dialogues in his book in it, which would in turn force the readers to learn the language. That would be a bit hardcore

 

EDIT: Corrected The North, thanks Althernai

Edited October 10, 2012 by norolim