Critical hits, misses and additional effects

[Valorian]

I'd like a crit confirmation mechanic like in 3/3.5 d&d.

[Radres]

Trulez you are assuming that there will be a strategy that can be build around doing criticals. No one is saying that criticals should be so frequent that some characters will be able to be build around criticals.

 

Beside why should we take away a certain aspect that made Pen&Paper games fun? While i know how to play chess i never want to sit and watch a chess match and that says something.

[TrashMan]

Without critical hits/misses and hte luck factor, we would never have the Spoony Bard, the Greatest Swordsman in the World.

[Foefaller]

cRPG's are based on Pen& Paper games. Where the most memorable sequences are those of fortune or misfortune. Any one with a favorite Pen &Paper moment will probably tell you something going incredibly wrong or good.

Thank you for making my original point, critical hit/miss is a remnant from PnP and should be forgotten in modern cRPGs. Those memorable moments when you slip and break your neck, or slay that ogre with a sling shot to the eye, they are only memorable because you were in the company of your friends who were enjoying the moment with you. That simply does not translate to single player cRPG where you sit in front of the PC alone, no one is going to enjoy the critical hit/miss with you, which makes it feel very empty and hollow, more of a nuisance really ("I failed AGAIN, how the fu....oh I guess I should reload").

 

Those events will make their moment more exciting. When a sudden mishap will fire up your brain cells to control the damage or a sudden luck will ignite hope against dire odds. In the end people will probably be thankful for that. Because it breaks the routine.

No, it wont. There's nothing heart warming about failing critically when you are playing the game alone, it's just an annoyance.

 

 

 

I very much disagree with these comments.

 

I was going to go on a long spiel on how, while it is true those TT memories are more memorable because they were shared, that many gamers still have solo gaming experinces that they love to relive and share with others, both good and bad, and was planning on sharing a few of mine as examples.

 

...But then I realised I need only *one* example; A strategy game many here have heard of, if not played, that shows just how random bouts of good and terrible luck can imortalize a moment in gaming.

 

That game?

 

X-COM

Edited October 7, 2012 by Foefaller

[Silver6986]

Well looks like my votes are in line with the majority, so adverse effects for both a critical hit or a critical miss (a la Fallout 2), but I voted 'other' as the type of effects should be designed around what is available to the player (weapons of ice, fire, types of spells etc) of which we don't know exactly what these will be yet, especially concerning the balance of the game.

 

But hell, any of them mentioned sound great (in theory)

[Ywerion]

What kind of RPG would that be WITHOUT these I say. For me it was always a spice of the combat itself (particularly in Fallout and Arcanum), be it on the receiving or causing end, it kept me on edge to see what will happen, what will it cause. Getting injured one arm? no more swinging that two handed hammer for you buddy, hope you have at least a dagger with you, see how well you hit me with an eye out, and so on. One of the fondest memories I got was in Arcanum when I shot from a great distance with a Looking Glass Rifle one orc guard to head, that single shot caused critical hit, knocked down poor fella made him drop weapon and caused (no kidding) some sort of confusion, it really looked like he was shaken and pretty much unable to fight. So I think these things should have be present in PE at least in some way.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Ywerion

[Theobeau]

Sure, happy to support an element that harkens back to the PnP days.

 

Some like me think that critical hits and critical misses are a reminder of the antecedents of the cRPG genre but why not make them optional for those who don't like the feature?

[Ywerion]

Sure why not, playing on easiest difficulty could disable criticals.

[Rabain]

One of the things in Dragon Age Origins was to have injuries as well as just plain damage. Injuries had negative effects on you until removed, which could be done in combat with higher level spells or with injury kits (potions basically) at any level.

 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Injuries

[Silver6986]

One of the things in Dragon Age Origins was to have injuries as well as just plain damage. Injuries had negative effects on you until removed, which could be done in combat with higher level spells or with injury kits (potions basically) at any level.

 

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Injuries

 

Which sounds pretty much like a copy of what Fallout 1 & 2 have, where injuries are a byproduct of combat and need to be taken care of either by a Doctor, or if you invested in the Doctor Skill enough you could then fix the problem yourself with the use of a Doctors Bag or First Aid Kit etc...

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

One of the things in Dragon Age Origins was to have injuries as well as just plain damage. Injuries had negative effects on you until removed, which could be done in combat with higher level spells or with injury kits (potions basically) at any level.

 

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Injuries

 

Which sounds pretty much like a copy of what Fallout 1 & 2 have, where injuries are a byproduct of combat and need to be taken care of either by a Doctor, or if you invested in the Doctor Skill enough you could then fix the problem yourself with the use of a Doctors Bag or First Aid Kit etc...

 

Or a copy of negative status effects from (name pretty much any PnP ). It is a good idea.

[Ywerion]

One of the things in Dragon Age Origins was to have injuries as well as just plain damage. Injuries had negative effects on you until removed, which could be done in combat with higher level spells or with injury kits (potions basically) at any level.

 

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Injuries

 

Which sounds pretty much like a copy of what Fallout 1 & 2 have, where injuries are a byproduct of combat and need to be taken care of either by a Doctor, or if you invested in the Doctor Skill enough you could then fix the problem yourself with the use of a Doctors Bag or First Aid Kit etc...

 

Or a copy of negative status effects from (name pretty much any PnP ). It is a good idea.

 

Well memory mabe doesn't serve so well, but Im pretty sure getting rid of serious injuries was more difficult in FO 1+2, at least I never collected huge supply of Doctor Bags, while in Dragon Age serious injuries become just a minor annoyance.

[ReyVagabond]

Personally I don’t like the D&D concept of rolls and critical hits and critical miss.

 

So its all about how the game is implemented depending on the concept you create the rules depending on the rules you have room for experiment.

 

For example I like the idea of having little to no Hp you have the hitting skill in one side and the defending skill in the other one.

Both are affected by Weapons, Str, Dex, Int, Wisdom, Position, Magic effects and the crucial

Hitting Skill- How good you are attacking

Defending Skill-how good you are defending

 

So depending of the accumulation of those two values one can say that if the difference in hitting skill vs defending skill you will do more damage because you will do more precise attacks to more vulnerable places.

 

I like that, a good number of attributes are part of the equation because when you fight it’s not just your dex and you str that are part of that its experience wisdom, intelligence to do a fake or knowing your opponent or learning their patterns, or knowing yourself. Fighting it’s a culmination of skill training body perfecting techniques and many other things.

 

I practice kendo, and fighting some one stronger is hard to defend you try to block and you know your defense will be blown away. Fighting some one dextier that you and its hard to lad a good blow on them, but you now that after months of trying you get stronger and you are dextier and your overall skill is better you know more stuff. Your intelligence affects how fast you learn and your wisdom is your overall ability to keep your cool and experience with situations like that. like an old boxer fighting a jung one the difference in experience makes them take the fight with a different way and its not that they are not as fast or strong as the other one its that because of the overall level of experience they have in fights lets call it Wisdom, affects how they fight.

 

On the relationship with damage I want small amount of hit points and big numbers of soaking damage with the armor, that gets has limited life spawn but can be repaired and upgraded.

 

So if we simplified with not hatboxes it could be something simple like you have to life bars the first one is your armor and the second one is your health, once your armor is broken of the armor HP is gone then you are getting hit and you are in trouble. Mages are always in trouble because they usually don’t use armor, so their real hit points are exposed.

 

Well have fun with the Experience drinking game!

[Radres]

I think it's safe to say that the critical hit mechanics , when implemented won't be the same as DnD, because they stated that their creating anew system and they wouldn't risk a lawsuit by making that system similar to DnD.

[Hormalakh]

If there are special effects, the probabilties of them actually occuring should be extremely low. Like 0.05% per crit miss/hit. Critical hits happen quite often (5%), but the special effects should not happen every time you get a crit. That's just too many status changes.

[Michael_Galt]

I love the idea of there being special results from criticals, since that makes sense. You hit someone in just the right spot, and it makes all the difference. I think it needs to be very difficult/infrequent that these criticals are executed though, to make it not end up being "cheap" and over-used. Perhaps instead of having it be a component of the normal "attack roll", you would instead make it an entirely different roll based off of your "attack stats" (strength, dexterity), weapon type (with larger, more lethal weapons having increased likelihood, like in D&D) versus the enemy's "defense stats" (dexterity, strength, constitution) and armor + weapon (bonus to resistance if they have a shield and heavy armor, penalties if they have lighter armor and/or no shield).

 

I also like the idea of "called shots", where you target an area, similar as in VATS, special attacks to do a specific critical, and weapons having higher likelihoods to land certain criticals. Then, with all those "stacked", you could hypothetically have your warhammer-wielding warrior target his arm with a special disarming attack that crushes it, leaving him at your mercy. Or you could have the "shield sunder" ability, which is used to break that pesky shield he has been hiding behind.

[Shaewaros]

Critical hits and misses should have adverse effects, but I'd prefer them to be quite minor ones, like decrease of movement for a short time, disarming of a weapon or an injury that can only be cured out of combat. Stun, blind and fear might also be fine, but only if the effect does not last longer than one combat round.

[testerius]

I like this idea and it can be similar to Fallout's critical effect. You can break leg, arm, blind enemy or drop his weapon. Stun effect would be cool too.

[Radres]

I've made this mindmap to summarize the discussion so far. And i have thought about how to make the critical hit mechanic deeper. Like the factor of weapon type, armor type ...etc. The result is like this, hop you guys like it!

 

 

[Tsuga C]

So long as the possibiliy of them was very slight, critical misses that expose you to an attack of opportunity or lower your armor class for the very next attack against you might be acceptable, but I woudn't want to take the concept too far. Introducing too much chance into melee detracts from the experience by obviating wise choices made by the player in building, equipping, and tactically deploying a party.

[Radres]

I think PE can only benefit from deep melee mechanics. In infinity games magic combat was very deep but melee combat was dull and under utilized.

[UpgrayeDD]

I really have to say this is one of the worse ideas I've seen so far. As the character you are going to get attacked and attack far more then any other npc out there. In all likelyhood they will die in 4-5 hits tops so their period of being stunned/blind/dissarmed will be short lived. I can see this feature becoming nothing more then a stupid annoyance. Something like "Oh the boss jsut crit me! Not only did it hit like a truck now I'm stunned for x seconds". The fact is you'll hardly notice what the affect will have on enemies and it will happen everyother fight to you.

I don't care if there are certain unique weapons doing these effects, but on everyweapon will just be annoying. Do you really wwant to put somethnig annoying into every fight?

[Radres]

I honestly don't know where you have gotten the idea that this kind of effects will happen all the time or that your enemies will fall faster than Felix Baumgartner.

 

The consensus is, that critical hits and miss situations shouldn't happen often unless you're character is specialising in this direction (like rogues/duelist characters) or your char is equipped with gear that really doesn't fit him/her.

 

I am quite sure that combat in P:E will not be like Diablo. Why? Because this is not a Hack&Slash type dungeon crawler and everybody wants tactical and suprising combat which probably means people or creatures here won't die in seconds unless they are facing a vastly overpowered foe.

[Lephys]

I like the idea of critical hits being more than just extra damage. If you allow Rogue-ish crit builds (where you get your chance up to about 20%), then you wind up with critical chance essentially passing for part of the class mechanic, even though it's literally just a matter of attack frequency and damage calculation. But, if crits are too IN-frequent, you pretty much ignore them. "Oh great, once per 10 minutes, someone does 100 damage instead of 50. Woot..."

 

So, keeping them pretty rare while allowing them to alter one's status would give the crit system more purpose. If you allow the player to affect the percentage chance within a slightly larger range (for finesse builds), then instead of sacrificing damage (STR and feats and such, traditionally) for a chance at extra-damage, you get sacrificing damage for a chance at more status effects. In the example of Rogues typically getting up to 15-or-20% critical chance while the other classes typically stay down at 5% or so, simply making the crits more about effects and less about extra damage (don't necessarily have to cut out the extra damage all-together), your Rogue would now function differently in combat with one build as opposed to another.

 

Whether or not to let the player affect the chance that much or not depends on a lot of other factors, but, either way, I think critical hits with effects would provide a greater dynamic than sheer damage bursts.

 

And obviously the effects would have to depend upon the weapons/character. I don't think the 10-STR Mage is going to go around shattering people's weapons and concussively bashing their skulls with his dagger. I'd also love to see critical hits in magic, to some degree. There are more effects in-place with magic, already (as compared to standard physical weapon strikes), so you have more for the critical to affect (Chance/duration of burning from a fire spell, blind/paralysis on a lightning spell, extra jump on chain lightning, larger radius on frost nova, etc.).

 

As for critical misses, they'd have to be VERY, very minimized, almost to the point of just adding very occasional flavorful occurrences to combat. A critical hit is a chance for what someone's doing to be a little more effective, so the rest of the time it's simply as effective as you'd expect it to be. A critical MISS, on the other hand, is purely a chance that something will be LESS effective than it should've been. This tends to inherently make your strategic choices less reliable. I mean, what if your character just had always had a tiny chance of tripping and falling? How could you get anything done in combat? "Well, I'd tell him to flank these guys, but I don't know if he's gonna fall or not."

 

Failing to score a critical hit doesn't negate a strategic choice (i.e. attack this enemy, move here, cast this spell), whereas failing to NOT-score a critical miss does. And that's on top of regular misses. u_u

[UpgrayeDD]

I honestly don't know where you have gotten the idea that this kind of effects will happen all the time or that your enemies will fall faster than Felix Baumgartner.

Combat is going to play a fairly large part of the game. Assuming critical hits and misses happen 5% of the time thats pretty fricken often. If you and your enemy attack each other strike for strike theres going to be a 9.75% chance with every exchange that you are going to crit miss or be crit. 9.75% chance of stun, weapon drop, fear, blind movement loss, weapon/armor, state damage is going to happen to your character. I'm pretty sure most people voting for this didn't really think it through just how often said things will happen.

I am quite sure that combat in P:E will not be like Diablo. Why? Because this is not a Hack&Slash type dungeon crawler and everybody wants tactical and suprising combat which probably means people or creatures here won't die in seconds unless they are facing a vastly overpowered foe.

this feature wouldn't add a cent of tactics. A crit is random and piling on a bonus effect on top of damage isnt needed. Crit are already popular in most every game if not outright over power. what this will do is add a worse spike effect then what they had before. Adding a random chance of a huge combat bonus or penalty doesn't add to tactics it takes away from it.