Bows: Limited ammo?

[ogrezilla]

Limited ammuniton for everything. Unlimited ammo is almost the same thing as god- mode. At least as long as it isn't about items rare, magical and very expensive.

 

In other thread someone wanted unlimited ammo, because otherwise, after running out of arrows, he'd have to walk out of dungeon to buy more. A game punishing for bad management, scandalous, isnt it?

 

Wouldn't mind if Eternity brought some suffering to those all lazy mindless casuals.

that was me and you still don't get my point at all. I actually said my preferred solution would be to punish bad resource management more severely by somehow forcing you to continue on without being able to buy more arrows. And they should actually be somewhat expensive. But the old games never once punished you for running out of arrows. Walking back to town isn't a punishment, its simply a minor waste of time. If the consequence for running out of arrows is completely insignificant like walking back to town, then I would absolutely just rather have unlimited arrows. Limited basic arrows that cost 1 gold per stack and require nothing but a walk back to town adds absolutely no value to the game. They are effectively unlimited anyway, they just require a minor inconvenience occasionally.

 

And I definitely think any upgraded ammunition should be limited.

Edited October 3, 2012 by ogrezilla

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Umming and ahhing over this. Some people saying 'punish the casual' by making him think about his inventory management, but really is it that hardcore to fill up on arrows at the shop. What I'm saying is that I don't really see how it has much effect on the game. I'm okay with having limited ammo but at the same time I wonder if it's not just busy work.

 

That said, a system like BG/IWD would be fine with me.

[licketysplit]

Yes, limited. For a hack n' slash like Diablo, this isn't a concern. For a full blooded RPG, there needs to be realistic ramifications for the gear we carry.

[Chunkyman]

I say make the normal stuff unlimited, but make it so that you can buy a large variety of higher quality arrows. This will prevent my inventory from being cluttered with quivers, but allow for purchasing of special arrows for different circumstances.

 

Mosty, I just hate running back and forth between the shop constantly.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Chunkyman

[ogrezilla]

Umming and ahhing over this. Some people saying 'punish the casual' by making him think about his inventory management, but really is it that hardcore to fill up on arrows at the shop. What I'm saying is that I don't really see how it has much effect on the game. I'm okay with having limited ammo but at the same time I wonder if it's not just busy work.

 

That said, a system like BG/IWD would be fine with me.

ya, it was nothing but busy work in IWD at least. It never once led to a situation where I had to strategically conserve arrows or figure out what to do when I ran out. You simply use arrows until you run out. Then you walked to town and got more. Which was rare since everyone in my party who didn't use a ranged weapon carried extra arrows anyways.

Edited October 3, 2012 by ogrezilla

[ogrezilla]

Yes, limited. For a hack n' slash like Diablo, this isn't a concern. For a full blooded RPG, there needs to be realistic ramifications for the gear we carry.

"i ran out of arrows. Bad guys please wait here while I go get more back in town"

 

grueling realism there. Really kept me immersed in the game.

 

If anything it made things easier because it was an excuse to go rest up and sell whatever stuff I had to make more inventory space.

Edited October 3, 2012 by ogrezilla

[nikolokolus]

I guess it partly depends on how archery/ranged is balanced in the game, but in general I like arrows and bolts to be finite and I think they should have weight (or at least they should have weight in the expert mode of the game).

[Adhin]

@Thulean: Depends on your quiver but you can carry a good 20-40-ish in a quiver, can have multiple quivers.

 

I chose all limited and I'd like to add (as has been said before in this thread) adding the ability to pickup arrows from corpses would also be a nice addition.

[rjshae]

I guess it partly depends on how archery/ranged is balanced in the game, but in general I like arrows and bolts to be finite and I think they should have weight (or at least they should have weight in the expert mode of the game).

 

Arrows in the games probably have reasonable weight, but unreasonable storage characteristics. Characters can carry around hundreds of arrows with very little impact. In reality that's a lot of bulk. You never see hunters carry around more than 10-20. Not sure what can be done about that though.

[Gorth]

I guess it partly depends on how archery/ranged is balanced in the game, but in general I like arrows and bolts to be finite and I think they should have weight (or at least they should have weight in the expert mode of the game).

 

Arrows in the games probably have reasonable weight, but unreasonable storage characteristics. Characters can carry around hundreds of arrows with very little impact. In reality that's a lot of bulk. You never see hunters carry around more than 10-20. Not sure what can be done about that though.

Maybe severely limit the number of arrows you can lug around, but make each arrow account for more. I.e. do serious damage, but you want to use it for worthy adversaries, not all the small critters you run into (which you could finish off with a recycleable throwing dagger or some such). It's all down to the (as of yet unknown) game mechanics.

[Vaeliorin]

How many arrows can one person realistically carry at one time and still fight effectively?

Given that in all the IE games you can fight effectively while carrying multiple suits of armor and an entire golf bag full of weapons, I don't think that arrows (however many you carried) would make that much of a difference.

 

That said, I'm fine with limited arrows as long as the stacks are fairly large (100 is a good number) and I can scavenge components and craft arrows while in the field if I have the right skills. It was incredibly annoying in the IE game to have half your inventory full of arrows if you didn't want to have to go back to town between areas. It wasn't hard, and it wasn't punishing, it was just annoying busy work to constantly have to go back to town to buy arrows if you didn't carry a ton of them with you.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Limited ammunition please. However, arrows(and stones if there are slings) should be relatively easy to craft with from variety of materials that can be found in the wild.

[zlarm]

 

Maybe severely limit the number of arrows you can lug around, but make each arrow account for more. I.e. do serious damage, but you want to use it for worthy adversaries, not all the small critters you run into (which you could finish off with a recycleable throwing dagger or some such). It's all down to the (as of yet unknown) game mechanics.

 

Not really a fan of that idea... You'd essentially be turning whatever archer class they have into a mage. I think everyone is starting to go overboard on the realism. Even the IE games didn't restrict you on things like that. Whats next? The more arrows you have the more likely you are to accidentally poke yourself so you should suffer damage over time?

[Jaesun]

Maybe severely limit the number of arrows you can lug around, but make each arrow account for more. I.e. do serious damage, but you want to use it for worthy adversaries, not all the small critters you run into (which you could finish off with a recycleable throwing dagger or some such). It's all down to the (as of yet unknown) game mechanics.

 

I like that as well.

[IcyDeadPeople]

Sure, as long as the stacks are large enough, i.e. stacks of 100 instead of 20. Otherwise the micromanagement can be a bit tedious.

 

Why would you need a stack? Couldn't you simply buy (or craft) as many arrows at a time as you want?

Edited October 3, 2012 by IcyDeadPeople

[Giantevilhead]

It depends on the range of bows, firing rate, and how it affects your movement. If you can only get off one or two shots against an enemy before they managed to get into melee range and you can't move while you're shooting then they might as well make it so that (normal) ammo is unlimited. If you can get off 5 or 6 shots against an enemy before they get into melee range and you can shoot and run at the same time then there should definitely be ammo limits.

[Brother Pain]

I voted for unlimited regular ammo (like in Lionheart) but it really depends:

- A system that doesn't require you to constantly micromanage your ammunition is fine (eg. Fallout simply has a stack of ammo and you can reload without touching your inventory).

- A system with small stacks that have to be manually used in your inventory (as in Baldur's Gate) would be crap.

[IcyDeadPeople]

I find the archery systems in games with unlimited ammo to be boring at best and at worst on the level of pew pew pew style MMO combat where archery is just another button on a cooldown quickbar timer, like a spell, etc. For those of you who prefer unlimited ammo, would you propose unlimited ammo for crossbows and arquebuses as well? How about unlimited throwing daggers, unlimited spears, etc.?

 

Personally, if I'm playing an archer or crossbowman character, I want to be really pleased to find a couple of arrows or quarrels, or a recipe for crafting them. Unlimited ammo ruins this aspect of the game, and it makes the entire archery system feel much less realistic. Same goes for arquebuses, or whatever sort of medieval flintlock firearms will be in the game. Wouldn't it be fun to play a character who learns how to craft the black powder and buckshot, or whatever sort of primitive bullets they use? If it's all unlimited, then there's no point in crafting them.

 

Duke Patrick's Combat Archery Mod for Oblivion got this right. The guy is a real life archery expert and he put a lot of work into designing some mechanics that recreate something of the feel of real archery combat. Arrows have a lot of force and damage, but you can't pew pew pew them like a laser gun. It takes time and concentration to draw the bow and it's easy to stumble, or mess up your shot if you get hit with melee while you are drawing.

Edited October 3, 2012 by IcyDeadPeople

[ogrezilla]

I find the archery systems in games with unlimited ammo to be boring at best and at worst on the level of pew pew pew style MMO combat where archery is just another button on a cooldown quickbar timer, like a spell, etc. For those of you who prefer unlimited ammo, would you propose unlimited ammo for crossbows and arquebuses as well? How about unlimited throwing daggers, unlimited spears, etc.?

 

Personally, if I'm playing an archer or crossbowman character, I want to be really pleased to find a couple of arrows or quarrels, or a recipe for crafting them. Unlimited ammo ruins this aspect of the game, and it makes the entire archery system feel much less realistic. Same goes for arquebuses, or whatever sort of medieval flintlock firearms will be in the game. Wouldn't it be fun to play a character who learns how to craft the black powder and buckshot, or whatever sort of primitive bullets they use? If it's all unlimited, then there's no point in crafting them.

 

Duke Patrick's Combat Archery Mod for Oblivion got this right. The guy is a real life archery expert and he put a lot of work into designing some mechanics that recreate something of the feel of real archery combat. Arrows have a lot of force and damage, but you can't pew pew pew them like a laser gun. It takes time and concentration to draw the bow and it's easy to stumble, or mess up your shot if you get hit with melee while you are drawing.

 

so when you run out of arrows in a game like icewind dale, do you really enjoy walking back to town to buy more? Does it actually add any value to the game? I mean, its a minor enough hassle that I really don't mind keeping up with arrows. I just don't get what is enjoyable about it. Seems like realism for the sake of realism to buy arrows for your elf.

Edited October 3, 2012 by ogrezilla

[IcyDeadPeople]

I find the archery systems in games with unlimited ammo to be boring at best and at worst on the level of pew pew pew style MMO combat where archery is just another button on a cooldown quickbar timer, like a spell, etc. For those of you who prefer unlimited ammo, would you propose unlimited ammo for crossbows and arquebuses as well? How about unlimited throwing daggers, unlimited spears, etc.?

 

Personally, if I'm playing an archer or crossbowman character, I want to be really pleased to find a couple of arrows or quarrels, or a recipe for crafting them. Unlimited ammo ruins this aspect of the game, and it makes the entire archery system feel much less realistic. Same goes for arquebuses, or whatever sort of medieval flintlock firearms will be in the game. Wouldn't it be fun to play a character who learns how to craft the black powder and buckshot, or whatever sort of primitive bullets they use? If it's all unlimited, then there's no point in crafting them.

 

Duke Patrick's Combat Archery Mod for Oblivion got this right. The guy is a real life archery expert and he put a lot of work into designing some mechanics that recreate something of the feel of real archery combat. Arrows have a lot of force and damage, but you can't pew pew pew them like a laser gun. It takes time and concentration to draw the bow and it's easy to stumble, or mess up your shot if you get hit with melee while you are drawing.

 

so when you run out of arrows in a game like icewind dale, do you really enjoy walking back to town to buy more? Does it actually add any value to the game? I mean, its a minor enough hassle that I really don't mind keeping up with arrows. I just don't get what is enjoyable about it. Seems like realism for the sake of realism to buy arrows for your elf.

 

Never played icewind dale, but if ammo is scarce in a game it makes it so much more enjoyable to find some arrows after killing some enemy archer, for example. If I'm playing a character who specializes in archery and I run out of arrows, perhaps I'll pick up some other weapon to use in the meantime, or try to sneak and avoid enemies.

 

If you were an archer in a dangerous place, how would you handle the situation? It becomes important to plan your shots carefully and take caution not to waste any. A mysterious bow that shoots infinite magic missiles just doesn't capture the essence of archery. Arrows are very important to any archer. If you want to role play an archer character and consider your character's perspective, isn't he going to be just as concerned about getting his hands on some good arrows as he would be about obtaining a bow?

Edited October 3, 2012 by IcyDeadPeople

[ogrezilla]

I find the archery systems in games with unlimited ammo to be boring at best and at worst on the level of pew pew pew style MMO combat where archery is just another button on a cooldown quickbar timer, like a spell, etc. For those of you who prefer unlimited ammo, would you propose unlimited ammo for crossbows and arquebuses as well? How about unlimited throwing daggers, unlimited spears, etc.?

 

Personally, if I'm playing an archer or crossbowman character, I want to be really pleased to find a couple of arrows or quarrels, or a recipe for crafting them. Unlimited ammo ruins this aspect of the game, and it makes the entire archery system feel much less realistic. Same goes for arquebuses, or whatever sort of medieval flintlock firearms will be in the game. Wouldn't it be fun to play a character who learns how to craft the black powder and buckshot, or whatever sort of primitive bullets they use? If it's all unlimited, then there's no point in crafting them.

 

Duke Patrick's Combat Archery Mod for Oblivion got this right. The guy is a real life archery expert and he put a lot of work into designing some mechanics that recreate something of the feel of real archery combat. Arrows have a lot of force and damage, but you can't pew pew pew them like a laser gun. It takes time and concentration to draw the bow and it's easy to stumble, or mess up your shot if you get hit with melee while you are drawing.

 

so when you run out of arrows in a game like icewind dale, do you really enjoy walking back to town to buy more? Does it actually add any value to the game? I mean, its a minor enough hassle that I really don't mind keeping up with arrows. I just don't get what is enjoyable about it. Seems like realism for the sake of realism to buy arrows for your elf.

 

Never played icewind dale, but if ammo is scarce in a game it makes it so much more enjoyable to find some arrows after killing some enemy archer, for example. If I'm playing a character who specializes in archery and I run out of arrows, perhaps I'll pick up some other weapon to use in the meantime, or try to sneak and avoid enemies.

 

If you were an archer in a dangerous place, how would you handle the situation? It becomes important to plan your shots carefully and take caution not to waste any.

I would actually really enjoy a setup like you are describing. I guess the problem is that arrows were never scarce in any of the games I've played including the IE games. And if you did happen to run out you could easily go get more. So none of that other stuff ever mattered. Simply taking a few minutes to get more arrows was a very unsatisfying way to handle the situation. If I was actually forced to be smart with the arrows it would be a good setup.

[IcyDeadPeople]

I would actually really enjoy a setup like you are describing. I guess the problem is that arrows were never scarce in any of the games I've played including the IE games. And if you did happen to run out you could easily go get more. So none of that other stuff ever mattered. Simply taking a few minutes to get more arrows was a very unsatisfying way to handle the situation. If I was actually forced to be smart with the arrows it would be a good setup.

 

I hear ya - I hadn't had that experience either until I tried Duke Patrick's mod. It really opened my mind to the possibilities of archery in RPGs.

[Jarmo]

I was going to vote "of course limited", but then stopped to think about it and went with "unlimited standard".

You'd always just stack a huge bunch of them and never ran all out. Or just went back to buy more.

 

Realism yes, but pointless busywork nonetheless.

Not going to cry over it though, if the arrows are limited, and I expect they will be.

 

But if we're going for realism, a longbow arrow would weigh up to 100g each (1500 grain), that's 10kg for the stack of 100.

(But maybe go with "fits all kinds" standard arrows, maybe 3kg for a stack of 100)

100-200 is what mongol warriors had, and they had horses to help. I don't know if any other troops had nearly as big an arrow load.

 

I wont mind if the game goes with heavy arrows either, but I probably wouldn't use archers much then.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Jarmo

[Xen]

I personally don't think that carrying a limited pack of standard arrows would do any good if the slain enemies are almost constantly dropping them or if you can instantly teleport to the closest shop / craft them on the spot... and especially if the quiver's arrow stack has been made so small that you need to micro-manage them on every each other battle (I'm looking at you BG...). Might as well go unlimited then and make all the better arrows limited.

[Hypevosa]

I was going to vote "of course limited", but then stopped to think about it and went with "unlimited standard".

You'd always just stack a huge bunch of them and never ran all out. Or just went back to buy more.

 

Realism yes, but pointless busywork nonetheless.

Not going to cry over it though, if the arrows are limited, and I expect they will be.

 

But if we're going for realism, a longbow arrow would weigh up to 100g each (1500 grain), that's 10kg for the stack of 100.

(But maybe go with "fits all kinds" standard arrows, maybe 3kg for a stack of 100)

100-200 is what mongol warriors had, and they had horses to help. I don't know if any other troops had nearly as big an arrow load.

 

I wont mind if the game goes with heavy arrows either, but I probably wouldn't use archers much then.

 

Unless we're going to say it's impossible for someone without proficiency to use a bow, having unlimited arrows is problematic since you just have the whole party fight ranged until enemies get close enough to wail on - I used this strategy alot in BG, and it was very effective. If no one needed to worry about their arrows, it would have been far too easy.

 

Same goes with any ranged ammunition really.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Hypevosa