stick to your guns, devs

[JediMB]

I don't see what the big hubub is about that supposed boob armor. It doesn't look very cumbersome and it does look like it serves a purpose if the warrior woman in question is very endowed in the area. I mean seriously folks, If that is boob armor then I'd argue scale or plate mail in the crotch armor are provocative cod pieces.

 

You'd have a point about the crotch armor if it was actually shaped like the reproductive organ it covers. The problem with the boobplate is twofold:

 

1) It looks silly to have the armor formfittingly wrapped around the breasts, or even used to "enhance" them.

 

2) It would serve to direct blows towards the user's sternum, rather than away from the body.

Edited October 3, 2012 by JediMB

[Umberlin]

The Cadegund affair left a sour taste in my mouth. I get it, for some people, boob plates are supposedly a deal breaker, but Obisidian caved in to "popular" demand at the first opportunity.

 

I'm not going to agree or disagree with the rest of your post, but I'd like to point out something unrelated to my opinions quickly, a fact if you will: They outright said that the backers were their boss this time around.

 

“I’d much rather have the players be my boss and hear their thoughts for what would be fun than people who might be more distant from the process and the genre and frankly, any long-term attachment to the title.” - Chris Avellone

 

And not just that one way quoted above, they've said it multiple times. Like I said, I'm not going to bring my opinion into this. It's just a fact that they set up that 'you are our boss' mentality. They did. Obsidian did. Not some self entitled fans on the forum. Obsidian. If I were to put in one little bit of my opinion on the subject it would be, "I think that's awful brave of Obsidian." I guess we'll see how that pans out.

[Badmojo]

Most of the stuff argued like, cooldowns, resting, the nature of good and evil choices, etc are good to be debated about. There are different play styles and some things that people overwelmingly do not want and some thing people do. It is also a good place to get ideas, so debates themselves are fine and the devs should keep an eye out.

 

However, the boobarmour/women treated in games threads are a different thing all together. This felt less about actual debating to improving the game and more about shoving a groups personal political correctness/personal ideology down our throats. I DO feel the devs caved in and are trying to avoid the issue all together which is very disapointing and makes me wonder what else they will not include to avoid other issues. No racism? no drugs? no sex? no slaves? no sexism?,etc I do not play games to play a politically correct propaganda machine, I play to escape reality.

 

Except they're all subjective preferences. Some people like cooldown and some people don't. Having or not having a cooldown system does not objectively make the game better or worse. Having or not having representation for certain political philosophies like utilitarianism, communism, libertarianism, etc. does not objectively make the game better or worse. It makes the game better for some people and worse for others.

 

How is discussion of issues like gender or race equality different? How do you know that preference for treatment of gender or race does not figure into a person's enjoyment of the game in the same way that treatment of political philosophies, morality, and ethics does?

 

 

Because its an political correct ideology being shoved down EVERYONES throat by a very small vocal minority that will not be happy until everybody removes everything controversal in the game, everyone treated exactly the same, characters are basically unisex, no racism, discrimination, sexism, etc...basically a pg disney game. I am fairly sure many (most?)of us put money in to get the games that were made before political groups started telling everybody what they could NOT do in their own works because if offended them.

[Giantevilhead]

Most of the stuff argued like, cooldowns, resting, the nature of good and evil choices, etc are good to be debated about. There are different play styles and some things that people overwelmingly do not want and some thing people do. It is also a good place to get ideas, so debates themselves are fine and the devs should keep an eye out.

 

However, the boobarmour/women treated in games threads are a different thing all together. This felt less about actual debating to improving the game and more about shoving a groups personal political correctness/personal ideology down our throats. I DO feel the devs caved in and are trying to avoid the issue all together which is very disapointing and makes me wonder what else they will not include to avoid other issues. No racism? no drugs? no sex? no slaves? no sexism?,etc I do not play games to play a politically correct propaganda machine, I play to escape reality.

 

Except they're all subjective preferences. Some people like cooldown and some people don't. Having or not having a cooldown system does not objectively make the game better or worse. Having or not having representation for certain political philosophies like utilitarianism, communism, libertarianism, etc. does not objectively make the game better or worse. It makes the game better for some people and worse for others.

 

How is discussion of issues like gender or race equality different? How do you know that preference for treatment of gender or race does not figure into a person's enjoyment of the game in the same way that treatment of political philosophies, morality, and ethics does?

 

 

Because its an political correct ideology being shoved down EVERYONES throat by a very small vocal minority that will not be happy until everybody removes everything controversal in the game, everyone treated exactly the same, characters are basically unisex, no racism, discrimination, sexism, etc...basically a pg disney game. I am fairly sure many (most?)of us put money in to get the games that were made before political groups started telling everybody what they could NOT do in their own works because if offended them.

 

Where has anyone suggested any of that? I've only seen people asking the developers to be more sensitive to the subject and give more equal representation for women and minorities. I have not seen anyone demand the developers to not include any controversy. I have not seen anyone say that they'll withdraw their support if the developers don't eliminate racism, sexism, and discrimination or give more representation to women and minorities. Do you have any evidence to support your assertion or are you just making guesses about people's intentions?

Edited October 3, 2012 by Giantevilhead

[Badmojo]

Most of the stuff argued like, cooldowns, resting, the nature of good and evil choices, etc are good to be debated about. There are different play styles and some things that people overwelmingly do not want and some thing people do. It is also a good place to get ideas, so debates themselves are fine and the devs should keep an eye out.

 

However, the boobarmour/women treated in games threads are a different thing all together. This felt less about actual debating to improving the game and more about shoving a groups personal political correctness/personal ideology down our throats. I DO feel the devs caved in and are trying to avoid the issue all together which is very disapointing and makes me wonder what else they will not include to avoid other issues. No racism? no drugs? no sex? no slaves? no sexism?,etc I do not play games to play a politically correct propaganda machine, I play to escape reality.

 

Except they're all subjective preferences. Some people like cooldown and some people don't. Having or not having a cooldown system does not objectively make the game better or worse. Having or not having representation for certain political philosophies like utilitarianism, communism, libertarianism, etc. does not objectively make the game better or worse. It makes the game better for some people and worse for others.

 

How is discussion of issues like gender or race equality different? How do you know that preference for treatment of gender or race does not figure into a person's enjoyment of the game in the same way that treatment of political philosophies, morality, and ethics does?

 

 

Because its an political correct ideology being shoved down EVERYONES throat by a very small vocal minority that will not be happy until everybody removes everything controversal in the game, everyone treated exactly the same, characters are basically unisex, no racism, discrimination, sexism, etc...basically a pg disney game. I am fairly sure many (most?)of us put money in to get the games that were made before political groups started telling everybody what they could NOT do in their own works because if offended them.

 

Where has anyone suggested any of that? I've only seen people asking the developers to be more sensitive to the subject and give more equal representation for women and minorities. I have not seen anyone demand the developers to not include any controversy. I have not seen anyone say that they'll withdraw their support if the developers don't eliminate racism, sexism, and discrimination or give more representation to women and minorities. Do you have any evidence to support your assertion or are you just making guesses about people's intentions?

 

Heh, you must have showed up late, there were whole threads about this. YES, people said they would pull out money on this topic or stupid stuff like if boob armour was in the game, that all people should be treated exaclty the same, no racism, sexism, etc. The threads got closed down and/or moved to the off topic forum. Yet, these threads keep opening up again and again by the same people saying the same thing over and over again.

 

Worrying about how this or that might offend someone is the fastest way to turn a potentially fantastic mature game into a generic off the shelf disney game. There are a bazillion Politically correct games out there and the majority of them suck. We do not need another one.

[metiman]

The Cadegund affair left a sour taste in my mouth. I get it, for some people, boob plates are supposedly a deal breaker, but Obisidian caved in to "popular" demand at the first opportunity.

 

I'm not going to agree or disagree with the rest of your post, but I'd like to point out something unrelated to my opinions quickly, a fact if you will: They outright said that the backers were their boss this time around.

 

“I’d much rather have the players be my boss and hear their thoughts for what would be fun than people who might be more distant from the process and the genre and frankly, any long-term attachment to the title.” - Chris Avellone

 

And not just that one way quoted above, they've said it multiple times. Like I said, I'm not going to bring my opinion into this. It's just a fact that they set up that 'you are our boss' mentality. They did. Obsidian did. Not some self entitled fans on the forum. Obsidian. If I were to put in one little bit of my opinion on the subject it would be, "I think that's awful brave of Obsidian." I guess we'll see how that pans out.

 

Interesting, but who are these "players" Chris is talking about? That's the problem. If they are really serious about that sort of thing I think they should set up a whole group of various official polls that are linked from the kickstarter page and maybe which only backers can vote in. That's really the best they can do in terms of getting a feel for their players' opinions on various issues. Unofficial forum polls are not useless, but it has been pointed out that only an infinitesimal percentage of backers actually vote in them. Obviously you can't force backers to make their opinions heard, but you can at least encourage as many as possible to do so. Maybe there should be a forum poll on whether Obsidian should be more proactive with their official polls. There is that one on the main page of this site, but even that only has a couple of thousand or so votes out of over 50,000 backers. Admittedly quite a few people do not seem to want what Obsidian has actually promised on their kickstarter page, but I suppose they can always change the description before the kickstarter ends if it turns out that the majority of backers want DA:O combat and DA2 romance or whatever.

[Giantevilhead]

Heh, you must have showed up late, there were whole threads about this. YES, people said they would pull out money on this topic or stupid stuff like if boob armour was in the game, that all people should be treated exaclty the same, no racism, sexism, etc. The threads got closed down and/or moved to the off topic forum. Yet, these threads keep opening up again and again by the same people saying the same thing over and over again.

 

Worrying about how this or that might offend someone is the fastest way to turn a potentially fantastic mature game into a generic off the shelf disney game. There are a bazillion Politically correct games out there and the majority of them suck. We do not need another one.

 

Some links/evidence would be nice but I'll take your word for it. However, does that actually mean that everyone who brings up those issues are like that? Did everyone who was against boob armor say that they'd pull their money if the developers didn't remove them? There are several threads like this too:

 

http://forums.obsidi...please-no-guns/

 

But does that mean everyone with those kinds of complaints are trying to force the developers to do something?

[Minttunator]

Heh, you must have showed up late, there were whole threads about this. YES, people said they would pull out money on this topic or stupid stuff like if boob armour was in the game, that all people should be treated exaclty the same, no racism, sexism, etc. The threads got closed down and/or moved to the off topic forum. Yet, these threads keep opening up again and again by the same people saying the same thing over and over again.

 

The hilarious part about these people - in this case the "I will withdraw my pledge if the game doesn't have transgender characters and furry romances rabble rabble" guys - is that they'll talk the talk (over and over and over in thread after thread after thread...), but they won't actually walk the walk. Applies to pretty much any time players DEMAND anything:

 

 

 

 

 

 

The other problem is that most players don't actually want what they think they want and it's up to the devs to figure it out and filter the legit, well thought out suggestions (of which there have been loads, in this and other forums) from generic whining.

[NerdBoner]

Look, the probability is high that I would not play a game designed by forum loudmouths and poll fanbois even if it was for free.

AMEN.

 

 

" *gasp* oh no.... BOOB ARMOR! RALLY THE WHINERS, THE WHITE KNIGHTS AND THE FEMENAZI'S!!!"

 

 

seeing thread after thread and post after post of that crap is just mind numbing and disheartening.

[Uomoz]

I liked more when games didn't have forums (eg. BG).

 

Internet: wild complain land.

[AwesomeOcelot]

Prudes and idiots shouldn't be the only voice listened to, but it's hard for me to push the other case because I don't actually support the position "boob armour, please, please, please! gimme." because I prefer the updated version. Yet I know if these people are listened to on every decision the game will be a lot worse.

[Wintersong]

Most of the stuff argued like, cooldowns, resting, the nature of good and evil choices, etc are good to be debated about. There are different play styles and some things that people overwelmingly do not want and some thing people do. It is also a good place to get ideas, so debates themselves are fine and the devs should keep an eye out.

 

However, the boobarmour/women treated in games threads are a different thing all together. This felt less about actual debating to improving the game and more about shoving a groups personal political correctness/personal ideology down our throats. I DO feel the devs caved in and are trying to avoid the issue all together which is very disapointing and makes me wonder what else they will not include to avoid other issues. No racism? no drugs? no sex? no slaves? no sexism?,etc I do not play games to play a politically correct propaganda machine, I play to escape reality.

Having a solid visual design that goes beyond "nudge to horny people and fashion models" is about improving the game. Immersion is important in RPGs and having females wearing armors designed to "sexualize" them while men wear "realistic" armors does not help. Chainmail bikinies for females? High heels for melee female fighters? Law of physics defying boobs? But don't worry because you won't see epic codpieces, chainmail manbikinis, batman suit with nipples and stuff like that. One would say that if you are using fantasy as excuse to get silly armor (that "looks cool" but is not really functional), you would do it for both men and women. But noooooo.

 

I didn't see anyone complaining that the movies of The Lord of The Rings didn't have Éowyn in chainmail bikini!!! And it's frakking fantasy, baby!!! On the other hand, we had that retarded Hollywood elf...

 

They outright said that the backers were their boss this time around.

 

“I’d much rather have the players be my boss and hear their thoughts for what would be fun than people who might be more distant from the process and the genre and frankly, any long-term attachment to the title.” - Chris Avellone

Ah... He would much rather have us as bosses is not exactly "Pledgers decide". That would be a very very bad idea. They must listen to all of us (no matter our view points in the different topics), but they should remain in charge. They are the professionals. They are the ones who will be working their asses off writing characters and dialogue, coding all the game mechanics, creating all the art assests,... and playing all those pre-alpha and alpha builds that allow them to see what works and what doesn't work. If along that road we can help them to get rid of bad stuff and improve stuff, cool.

 

 

Because its an political correct ideology being shoved down EVERYONES throat by a very small vocal minority that will not be happy until everybody removes everything controversal in the game, everyone treated exactly the same, characters are basically unisex, no racism, discrimination, sexism, etc...basically a pg disney game. I am fairly sure many (most?)of us put money in to get the games that were made before political groups started telling everybody what they could NOT do in their own works because if offended them.

I don't remember anyone asking for a Disney RPG. Did someone ask for non boobplate for political interests? I don't know. Probability says that maybe. But certainly most people didn't ask that for political interests. But keep living in your fantasy world where apparently, we have tons of threads and posts about how racism must not be in the game, how there shouldn't be discrimination (social or of any kind) and stuff like that.

 

 

Next, in Obsidian Forums: "A new move by groups with political interests hits the forum! A group started demanding that leather armor should be made of leather!!!"

[NerdBoner]

there should only be one gender and body type, one race and one religion in rpg's...that way everyone is equally represented and no one is offended!

 

the villain can be the person (of nondescript origin, don't want to offend) who wants to "shake things up"!

 

 

 

That's the kind of world I would live in! yay!

[Carlitus]

Obsidian must stand on their ideas. I want their creativity, not another Lord of the Rings copy. It also applies to gameplay, there's already a lot of computer games based on D&D.

 

If they start to make changes in the game based on fans feedback, i will retire mi funds hehehe.

[Sensuki]

You can get a lot out of these types of discussions and arguments if you're the kind of person who listens to reason. It's fine to have a steadfast perspective on a topic, but it's also good to hear other perspectives, which in turn, gives you perspective.

 

There's a lot of people on here who can do this, and a lot of people who can't.

[Sarog]

If they start to make changes in the game based on fans feedback, i will retire mi funds hehehe.

 

What if they listen to your feedback and so decide not to make changes that they otherwise would have made?

[Lt. Lizard]

I would agree with OP, except...

 

From words of J.E. Sawyer himself, they were deciding between several alternative variants of the artwork, and the outcry on the forums allowed them to pinpoint which one they will use. They did not create a new artwork from scratch to appease some rabid feminazis.

 

And thats not bad at all. Thats good. Infact, I would argue that that is exactly what these forums are here for: To help devs pinpoint which of the alternatives they are thinking about fans want in the game.

[teknoman2]

well looking at the pic i have to admit it was too much... it looked like a skintight suit rather than a metal armor.

[Lady Evenstar]

 

“I’d much rather have the players be my boss and hear their thoughts for what would be fun than people who might be more distant from the process and the genre and frankly, any long-term attachment to the title.” - Chris Avellone

 

And not just that one way quoted above, they've said it multiple times. Like I said, I'm not going to bring my opinion into this. It's just a fact that they set up that 'you are our boss' mentality. They did. Obsidian did. Not some self entitled fans on the forum. Obsidian. If I were to put in one little bit of my opinion on the subject it would be, "I think that's awful brave of Obsidian." I guess we'll see how that pans out.

 

I've wondered if Kickstarter will end up teaching a renewed appreciation of publishers ...

[NOK222]

“I’d much rather have the players be my boss and hear their thoughts for what would be fun than people who might be more distant from the process and the genre and frankly, any long-term attachment to the title.” - Chris Avellone

 

And not just that one way quoted above, they've said it multiple times. Like I said, I'm not going to bring my opinion into this. It's just a fact that they set up that 'you are our boss' mentality. They did. Obsidian did. Not some self entitled fans on the forum. Obsidian. If I were to put in one little bit of my opinion on the subject it would be, "I think that's awful brave of Obsidian." I guess we'll see how that pans out.

 

I've wondered if Kickstarter will end up teaching a renewed appreciation of publishers ...

 

No

[happyelf]

If it's any consolation, I can think of one set of fan feedback that i'm pretty sure they're ignoring, thankfully.

[Tigranes]

Good creators never listen to everything their boss says, because their boss, they aren't the creators.

[Bill Gates' Son]

To be honest with you, with the huge amount of negative fan feedback on this forum, I wouldn't listen to anything the people have to say here. If Obsidian takes some suggestions, then that's fine, but I hope they won't change gameplay or story elements simply because a few fanboys have a tantrum

Edited October 3, 2012 by Bill Gates' Son

[Ignatius]

I feel like this is an important mindset to take with these Kickstarters. Yes, we have given them our money, and in some ways perhaps they are beholden to delivering what we want, perhaps more than in a typical scenario, but... I'm not sure about that.

 

I feel like this only means that, "Hey, I really want to play another IE type game, they don't make them anymore, I heard you guys know a thing or two about it, here's 25 bucks, get to work." Beyond that, it's up to them. I'm just glad someone is doing it. (My god, what took you all so long!?!) Will there be parts I don't like, probably. (Doubtful.) But at the end of the day, they've already done more than enough. They've brought back a type of game that has been absent from my gaming regiment for FAR FAR FARRRRRR too long.

 

Does that mean my expectations are incredibly low? No, not at all, I want it to be great, and I expect a lot, but just the fact that a game of this type is getting made by people who know what they're doing (we have to give them that least) is enough for me to relax a bit, and give them some leeway in their creation decisions.

 

All I ask, is that there is a dragon to kill. And he's really hard to kill. Unless you have Carsomyr, of course.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Ignatius

[Rostere]

I think that armor should always be realistic. Boob plate is not practical for fighting. I could definitely see boob plate as ceremonial armor, but it's pretty damn stupid in combat. Also, the social aspects. In any halfway realistic medieval world, she would be unable to move anywhere without being sexually harassed.