Gender Prejudice

[DeDaL]

Alright, this is more of a specualtion thread.

 

So, we know that choosing your race will strongly determine your position in the world. Prejudices against races will be different in different lands, somewhere humans rule, somewhere they are hated. Also there have been hints that your class might have a minor influence, as to mages might be hated by some groups etc.

 

And that pushes us to the question of gender. As of late most developers, who implement gender choice in their game, tend to make the game indifferent to this choice, making it little more than a cosmetic one. Sure, your romance options may change, your visuals may change, and if conversations are voiced - your voice will change. But usually that is the limit to what is one of the most definitive characteristic of a person.

 

Indeed, in a fantasy setting, which is based on medieval times(even if a bit too loosely) wouldn't it be quite logical for many occupations and even activities to be strictly divided into masculine and feminine. Maybe it's just me, but wouldn't that be more engaging?

 

Imagine a female character. Let's say she's a warrior class, swinging sword is what she does for a living. And maybe she's quite good at it, but why would anyone newly met take her prowess and experience as granted? I can't imagine male soldiers, noblemen and such acknowledging her easily. At least at first. At least until they get to know the character better. And even then you can't expect everyone to like her. She wouldn't be trusted to go on the most important assignments, and know the most important aspects of the state of things. Maybe she wouldn't be permitted to enter a tournament or something. I even bet some self-important bastard would even take on a grudge on a woman taking up a sword. That could lead to a conflict, either open, or concealed where she is ambused in her sleep etc.

 

And now we move on. We've seen our first city, felt first grudges, fought our first foes. Now we march into more rural placees. And what do we find there? A cenobite monastery! A tied female character is gratiously taken in, offered food, water and roof to sleep under. Maybe the Grand Cenobite has a long issue needed to be resolved and she personally trusts the female character with that issue. Maybe it's not just a monastery, but a part of a grand order and the female main charachter might even have a chance at joining the order's holy warriors caste.

 

And here a male main character comes along to the monestery. He is met with deep disdain and distrust. All communication is done through a proxy - a eunuch monk. The most this male character could count on is to be offfered a sleep in the pig stalls, along with pigs. And food? Well, sure! If you can take it away from the pigs. Oh, of course the Grand Cenobite has something so ask him of as she sends her eunuch proxy with a message - chase away the wolves who love snaching away monastery's pigs. And then be on your way - we have no more use of you.

 

On the other hand, as the male charachter enters an aforementioned city, where a woman was met with great prejudice - soldiers meet him as an equal, noblemen respect him. And that one bastard who tried to assasinate the woman may even be as nice as to help the male character rise faster in the society, put in a good word for the male charater to be enrolled into high tournament and probably made an officer.

 

Now imagine gender prejudice mixed with racial one. Imagine our heroes venturing into some sort of elven(or something) society, which might be deeply matriarchal. And even though both our heroes might be insufferably human, the female would be tolerated even if considered of lesser species, whereas the male would be treated outrightly as little more than a slave.

 

 

 

Again this is a speculation thread, since gender differences this great in story are probably too much to be implemented. Yet still, isn't it fun to think about it? Itsn't it engaging to contemplate such possibilities?

[Volourn]

I think it could if done right. Heck, you can do it in reverse. Have a female dominated country 9ala the amazons but make the place civilized) and have said place's reactiosn to male PCs be vastly different than they would be to female PCs. females cna wlak through the gates unbothered but males need to be checked at the gates - posisbly even being forced to be strip searched or forced to pay an entrance fee. What have ya.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Volourn

[cuteLittleRabbit]

I think it would be awesome, but very difficult to balance out...

* Bonus quests per race + bonus quests per gender: would mean they will have to have at least (number of races) + 2 (or 3, if there's a single-gendered race?) bonus quests

* Bonus quests per race/gender combo: would mean they will have to have at least (number of dual-gendered races) * 2 (+ number of single-gendered races?) bonus quests

 

I'm not even thinking about the amount of effort it will take to make sure all NPC conversation lines are "gender-aware"...

 

But it would be awesome if it can be done .

 

*edit: "ensure" to "have to have at least"

Edited October 2, 2012 by cuteLittleRabbit

[metiman]

You could also limit human female characters to a strength of 16 out of 18 or something like that. I already do that myself for role play purposes. Anything else just doesn't seem realistic to me.

[D3xter]

Could give them gender modifiers, like +1 Str/Con or End for males and +1 Cha/Dex for females

[cuteLittleRabbit]

You could also limit human female characters to a strength of 16 out of 18 or something like that. I already do that myself for role play purposes. Anything else just doesn't seem realistic to me.

 

Actually, I personally feel that the "female characters have less strength" idea is not correct. True, on average, males are stronger than females. But it doesn't mean a female hero should be average .

But that's just my opinion (and knowing some physically strong women and emotionally wise/intuitive men ).

[DeDaL]

You could also limit human female characters to a strength of 16 out of 18 or something like that. I already do that myself for role play purposes. Anything else just doesn't seem realistic to me.

 

That's not really what I'm talking about. Sure, women generally are physically weaker, but that doesn't mean there couldn't be a strong, muscly woman capable of taking a few averadge attakers barehand.

 

Yes, for your own roleplay purposes it might be a good idea to limit your own choices. But because this is an internal issue - an issue of body and physique - it doesn't feel fair for a solid limit. In the end, that is an issue a character can overcome with relative ease. I'm talking about external issues - the society's look on your character based on gender, which can't be overcome easily.

 

I'm not even thinking about the amount of effort it will take to make sure all NPC conversation lines are "gender-aware"...

 

But it would be awesome if it can be done .

That's why I dub it the speculation thread.

 

I actually want to know if this is something people think about, if this is something you ponder about. My examples are crude and, frankly, I'd love to see someone else's thoughts and examples on gender prejudice in games. I think it's fun to think about it and know other people's thoughts.

Edited October 2, 2012 by DeDaL

[cuteLittleRabbit]

I actually want to know if this is something people think about, if this is something you ponder about. My examples are crude and, frankly, I'd love to see someone else's thoughts and examples on gender prejudice in games. I think it's fun to think about it and know other people's thoughts.

 

I would love to see more George R.R. Martin's Brienne of Tarth and/or Samwell Tarly characters make their way into popular fantasy settings, including games. I'm in the process of doing another NWN2 playthrough, and I really like it when I hear my character yell "Get ready to be beaten by a girl!" .

 

Can't say I have seen much of it in computer games yet, though.

[NOK222]

I would like to see some of the darker aspects of this in the game. People threatening you with...certain actions if playing a female.

[TrashMan]

Might be interesting if done right.

 

Historicly, women have been seen as more valubale than men and protected.

They were hommeakers, the heart of the family and guardians/carrier of hte future generation - hence why dangerous professions such as war were mostly reserved for men.

The prejudices have both pros and contras for both roles.

 

Might be interesting.

[evdk]

I would like to see some of the darker aspects of this in the game. People threatening you with...certain actions if playing a female.

No. Let's not go there.

 

No matter the execution, this would cause a ****storm of epic proportions.

[DreamingVoid]

I like your ideas, and I have no doubt Obsidian will implement "gender prejudice" into the game seeing as it will feature several different cultures.

One potentially interesting theme could be about the humans and Elves who arrived from across the sea only to find Elves living there, and the immigrant Elves feel closer akin to the humans than to their distant cousins, most likely because of their cultural/religious/political differences.

[Gorth]

Could also work the other way around in matriarchal society (think D&D drow). You better grovel good or your balls ends up on the dinner plate, then go back to work the fields for food production.

 

Alternatively it could be completely irrelevant. For some interesting stuff, check up on Celtic history and culture. Both sexes were warriors, merchants, rulers etc. Interesting people the Celts.

 

[Bos_hybrid]

I would like to see some of the darker aspects of this in the game. People threatening you with...certain actions if playing a female.

 

No, just no..... Please don't go there.

 

Some things just don't have a place, this is one of them.

[cuteLittleRabbit]

I would like to see some of the darker aspects of this in the game. People threatening you with...certain actions if playing a female.

 

...followed by other certain actions if said threats are made (or even the actual actions were taken), and those actions are observed by a community that is appalled by this (or has been told about it happening by someone they trust), and that community will take measures to ensure it never will happen again?

 

I personally think both of these things would be going too far. Social prejudice leading to (even more) interesting conversations, yes. Threatening with physical actions doesn't lead to more interesting conversations or game situations in my humble opinion.

[Jarmo]

I'd love to see an rpg where these things really play out.

But I'm not expecting that from Eternity, nor do I think it'd be a wise from Obsidian to go there at this point.

[Reddie]

It would be great to see sex-based discrimination accurately represented for once, but the outcry about political correctness makes this pretty much impossible. Sorry.

[metiman]

All of this only assumes boring humans. You could just as easily focus on a species where the females are dominant and even stronger. There are plenty of such species even on earth. Isn't Chimpanzee society female dominated?

[Sensuki]

**** political correctness.

 

It would be cool to play a game like that, but perhaps not this game.

[defragmentor]

God forbid this fantasy setting is one where inequality and discrimination was not historically predicated along gender lines.

 

 

I would like to see some of the darker aspects of this in the game. People threatening you with...certain actions if playing a female.

 

 

do not want.

[NOK222]

I would like to see some of the darker aspects of this in the game. People threatening you with...certain actions if playing a female.

No. Let's not go there.

 

No matter the execution, this would cause a ****storm of epic proportions.

 

Right, I forgot about the Tomb Raider fiasco.

[TrashMan]

You could also limit human female characters to a strength of 16 out of 18 or something like that. I already do that myself for role play purposes. Anything else just doesn't seem realistic to me.

 

Actually, I personally feel that the "female characters have less strength" idea is not correct. True, on average, males are stronger than females. But it doesn't mean a female hero should be average .

But that's just my opinion (and knowing some physically strong women and emotionally wise/intuitive men ).

 

That's true, but it's also true that men have a higher ceeling.

In other words a male hero should be strogner than a female hero, if both persue physical excellence.

If you want to be completely realistic, you can forget the +1 Dex for females, as they aren't any more agile or dextrous.

 

This is somewhat problematic, since, while women do have plenty of their own advantages (superior multi-tasking, wider pheriphery vision, better in reading emotions, etc. ), most of them are not suited for combat...which is what most of the game revolves around.

 

Some female players might enjoy the extra challenge, but I don't think many would like feeling gimped.

[Gorth]

I'd love to see an rpg where these things really play out.

But I'm not expecting that from Eternity, nor do I think it'd be a wise from Obsidian to go there at this point.

Would make excellent material for a Warhammer Fantasy/40K game. Slaaneshi cultists are not above a bit of ritual virgin sacrifice, but so far we know next to nothing about PE's setting, cultures or "Darkness" levels.

[Shaz]

It could be interesting and add depth if done well. It could also ostracize and cause anger and irritation, possibly even IF done well. Facing sexism and having gender roles ostensibly shoved in your face day after day can make this a really touchy subject for some.

 

My vote, for what it's worth: Dabble in it carefully, but gender recognition can easily be done without true prejudice, and as such definitely adds depth. This is a fantasy world, though. I would like to escape from the real unpleasant aspects of the real world I can, when playing in a fantasy one.

 

And to be very specific:

I would like to see some of the darker aspects of this in the game. People threatening you with...certain actions if playing a female.

No. HELL NO, especially if by 'certain actions' you mean the vicious and violent crime that is forced upon approximately 1 in 6 women? Are you honestly so crass as to want them to be reminded of this when they're playing a game, something that should be safe?

 

I'd rather not be reminded. And if you'd 'like to see' this, even within a game... then I worry about your future.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Shaz

[Halberd]

I disagree on this one.

 

You could argue that they should also put racial prejudice against black people in the game but no game developer is going to do that because its unnecessary and we are past that in the real world. This isn't the real world, this is a video game with its own world created by Obsidian, they can make it different.

 

That said maybe I'm bogging myself down with political correctness here. Maybe some gender prejudice should be allowed in the game just to give the game a more darker vibe.

 

I mean George R.R Martin's ASOIAF has a lot of gender prejudice in it... I think they did it at an acceptable level too. If books can then so can video games right?

 

As for whether women are stronger, smarter or more agile than men I'm not even going to get involved with that discussion cause I really don't know. Its unnecessary to discuss that anyway, like I said this is Obsidian's own creation they don't need to make it like reality