[Merged] Cooldown Thread

[Infinitron]

8 hours? no. I think its pretty safe to assume we won't be seeing something resembling the Dragon Age system though.

 

Probably not, but will it be different enough? Nothing much to do now but wait and see. I think the community has made itself clear and there isn't a lot more to say.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Infinitron

[ogrezilla]

8 hours? no. I think its pretty safe to assume we won't be seeing something resembling the Dragon Age system though.

 

Probably not, but will it be different enough? Nothing much to do now but wait and see. I think the community has made itself clear and there isn't a lot more to say.

the quotes all indicate that they are looking to use cooldowns to mimic a combination of the vancian system and resting while eliminating rest spamming. I expect it to feel more like BG or IWD than DA from everything we've been told so far.

Edited October 2, 2012 by ogrezilla

[Infinitron]

the quotes all indicate that they are looking to use cooldowns to mimic a combination of the vancian system and resting while eliminating rest spamming.

 

Fine, but nobody is sure what exactly that means. That's all we have - expectations.

[ogrezilla]

the quotes all indicate that they are looking to use cooldowns to mimic a combination of the vancian system and resting while eliminating rest spamming.

 

Fine, but nobody is sure what exactly that means. That's all we have - expectations.

indeed. I doubt the developers have a whole lot more than that at this stage of development.

[metiman]

I find it amusing how you guys are reading so much into Sawyer's comments.

 

Here is what he has not said:

1. That he dislikes the standard cooldowns everyone is familiar with from MMORPGs and Dragon Age and other modern cRPGs. Believing he is not planning to use them is nothing more than wishful thinking on your part. He never said he wasn't using them.

2. That he believes older combat systems are superior to new ones from most modern cRPGs like DA2, MMORPGs, Skyrim etc.

 

What he has said:

1. That he does like cooldowns (by any definition) and would under no circumstances rule them out in any way.

2. He is disappointed with the standard Vancian system that BG2/IWD/PS:T used and would prefer something else.

 

So he likes cooldowns and doesn't like standard Vancian. How does that rule out DA:O or WoW combat? Admittedly it doesn't prove 100% that he doesn't have in mind some novel, never-tried-before version of "cooldowns", but I think that is a less likely possibility than the use of a fully tested system used in other popular, modern games which millions of players seem to love. The only problem with such systems, aside from poor implementations, for those of us who object to them is the cooldowns themselves. I know some people object to mana pool systems, but I don't. I prefer Vancian, but I think Mana systems are fine.

[Gfted1]

Do you not remember that thread. Mr. Sawyer posts in that discussion were on importance of functional armor and the unlikeliness of a 'boob plate'. There was no 'I guess you guys are right, let me fix it' that was all him telling us about his vision and how it matched the redraw.

 

C'mon. Do you think that concept drawing for a P:E character existed without P:E input? In a matter of hours they folded like a beach chair to the avalanche of QQ about how boobplate wasnt realistic in a fantasty game where you use magic and fight monsters. Were talking about something that less than .5% of the 50k backers commented on.

[Osvir]

I'll also agree, but any cooldowns where you instantly get all your best spells once a combat ends is just as bad - the issue always becomes that my mage casting fireball every single solitary fight and blowing up the entire enemy party is really overpowered, but taking the ability to display that much power away from mages is as unkind as making it so rogue's can't backstab someone in one blow, or warriors can't critical and cause fleshy bits to fly everywhere as the screen shakes. Mages thrive on being awesome, and, for balance's sake they can't be awesome EVERY fight, if cooldowns work too quickly then we can't have that :\

 

I agree with this too. Maybe let the Mage's have a bit more usefulness for a longer period of time before needing to rest. Let them be able to act at full capability in maybe 3 fights, instead of one, then roam a bit keeping the Mage out of 5-6 fights, about at this time your Mage might have regenerated 4/8 [insert container]/Charges and can last about 1 or 2 fights more, then resting.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Osvir

[ogrezilla]

I find it amusing how you guys are reading so much into Sawyer's comments.

 

Here is what he has not said:

1. That he dislikes the standard cooldowns everyone is familiar with from MMORPGs and Dragon Age and other modern cRPGs. Believing he is not planning to use them is nothing more than wishful thinking on your part. He never said he wasn't using them.

2. That he believes older combat systems are superior to new ones from most modern cRPGs like DA2, MMORPGs, Skyrim etc.

 

What he has said:

1. That he does like cooldowns (by any definition) and would under no circumstances rule them out in any way.

2. He is disappointed with the standard Vancian system that BG2/IWD/PS:T used and would prefer something else.

 

So he likes cooldowns and doesn't like standard Vancian. How does that rule out DA:O or WoW combat? Admittedly it doesn't prove 100% that he doesn't have in mind some novel, never-tried-before version of "cooldowns", but I think that is a less likely possibility than the use of a fully tested system used in other popular, modern games which millions of players seem to love. The only problem with such systems, aside from poor implementations, for those of us who object to them is the cooldowns themselves. I know some people object to mana pool systems, but I don't. I prefer Vancian, but I think Mana systems are fine.

What he has said.

3. They want to mimic the number of casts a day mechanic from D&D while avoiding the rest mechanic

4. They want spell choice and preparation to be important

Edited October 2, 2012 by ogrezilla

[C2B]

I find it amusing how you guys are reading so much into Sawyer's comments.

 

Here is what he has not said:

1. That he dislikes the standard cooldowns everyone is familiar with from MMORPGs and Dragon Age and other modern cRPGs. Believing he is not planning to use them is nothing more than wishful thinking on your part. He never said he wasn't using them.

2. That he believes older combat systems are superior to new ones from most modern cRPGs like DA2, MMORPGs, Skyrim etc.

 

What he has said:

1. That he does like cooldowns (by any definition) and would under no circumstances rule them out in any way.

2. He is disappointed with the standard Vancian system that BG2/IWD/PS:T used and would prefer something else.

 

So he likes cooldowns and doesn't like standard Vancian. How does that rule out DA:O or WoW combat? Admittedly it doesn't prove 100% that he doesn't have in mind some novel, never-tried-before version of "cooldowns", but I think that is a less likely possibility than the use of a fully tested system used in other popular, modern games which millions of players seem to love. The only problem with such systems, aside from poor implementations, for those of us who object to them is the cooldowns themselves. I know some people object to mana pool systems, but I don't. I prefer Vancian, but I think Mana systems are fine.

 

No

 

Stop trollin' dude. Others make actual arguments. You do not. Just twisting things that were said.

Edited October 2, 2012 by C2B

[C2B]

8 hours? no. I think its pretty safe to assume we won't be seeing something resembling the Dragon Age system though.

 

Probably not, but will it be different enough? Nothing much to do now but wait and see. I think the community has made itself clear and there isn't a lot more to say.

 

Yup, wait till clarification.

 

I'm going out on a limp and predict most people will be satisfied by the idea. Then someone says something interpretable and we have another big discussion till the next clarification.

 

The circle of public game development

 

(I'm not saying it's a bad one)

[Hypevosa]

I think the best way to figure out cool downs is simply this: How long is the longest time one should have to wait for a spell to come back? If I fire off one of the most powerful spells in the game, should I be forced to rest to get it back? Can I get it back in maybe 9 or 12 hours? What is it that's holding me back?

 

Then we need to discuss how long the weakest spell should take to come back. If I cast identify on an item, how long should I have to wait to do it again?

 

I think a cast of Identify shouldn't take more than half an hour outside of combat to come back myself - that seems reasonable and balanced to me.

 

If I cast wish though, I think it should take at least 9 hours outside of combat to come back.

 

Scaling between that seems reasonable to me.

[Wirdjos]

Do you not remember that thread. Mr. Sawyer posts in that discussion were on importance of functional armor and the unlikeliness of a 'boob plate'. There was no 'I guess you guys are right, let me fix it' that was all him telling us about his vision and how it matched the redraw.

 

C'mon. Do you think that concept drawing for a P:E character existed without P:E input? In a matter of hours they folded like a beach chair to the avalanche of QQ about how boobplate wasnt realistic in a fantasty game where you use magic and fight monsters. Were talking about something that less than .5% of the 50k backers commented on.

 

I'm referring to these posts by Mr. Sawyer.

It's the consensus of armorers that because breastplates are already layered on top of significant padding and because breastplates are designed to slide blows cleanly away from vital areas, that designing a steel breastplate to follow the contours of breasts is unnecessary and counterproductive.

This is a fantasy game, but speaking strictly about what happens in the real world, this almost never happens. Women who wind up wearing armor do need sizing that accounts for their (typically) smaller size and (typically) different body shape, but it pretty much has the same form factor and function as what the men wear. In most cases, it is literally the exact same thing the men wear. It's only recently that body armor has been designed for women, not that you would be able to guess that by looking at it. No effort is made to contour the shape. Instead, they just change the proportions. This was also true of Joan of Arc's armor, which looked virtually indistinguishable from a male knight's armor except for size and proportion. Fantasy outfits are styled to be, well, stylish, but actual people who put their lives on the line almost universally err on the side of safety rather than attractiveness.

 

http://www.kpbs.org/...emale-soldiers/

 

These posts are why I think, Mr. Sawyer at least, always had a more functional design in mind. If you disagree, that's fine. The possibility is certainly there. But I would rather end the derail and let people get back to discussing possible magic systems.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Wirdjos

[C2B]

They did. Sawyer said so on Formspring

We had discussed various versions of the breastplate before the PA article went up. Reactions to the one on the PA site caused us to go with a more traditional breastplate for the final design

Edited October 2, 2012 by C2B

[Shevek]

8 hours? no. I think its pretty safe to assume we won't be seeing something resembling the Dragon Age system though.

 

Probably not, but will it be different enough? Nothing much to do now but wait and see. I think the community has made itself clear and there isn't a lot more to say.

the quotes all indicate that they are looking to use cooldowns to mimic a combination of the vancian system and resting while eliminating rest spamming. I expect it to feel more like BG or IWD than DA from everything we've been told so far.

 

I hope you are right. I recall JE saying that resting was out.

[metiman]

Do you think the Bioware developers would say that they don't want spell choice and preparation to be important? It has been a long time since I have played DA:O, and then it was only briefly, but I do remember spending way more time studying the manual (like maybe 4 hours) than I actually did playing it (1-2 hours). So I must have at least been under the impression that spell choice and preparation were important. I think I am going to have to play DA:O again soon just to be able to converse fluently in these threads. The casts per day mechanic is more specific, but that just seems to rule out a mana system. So it won't be exactly the same as DA:O if that's the case, but it still doesn't rule out an casting (or even melee) timer of some kind. Even an otherwise standard Vancian system can have delays implemented between spell castings. Apparently they are not going to be using rounds (a whole 'nother can of worms that), but they could quite easily use powerful spells and depower them through the use of long casting delays. Cast a fireball from your memorized spellbook then weight 240 seconds before being able to cast another spell. That sort of thing. That's the kind of mechanic that I hate and I have yet to see any reason to doubt Sawyer's intent to implement exactly that.

Edited October 2, 2012 by metiman

[Hypevosa]

casting 2 or 3 fireballs in quick succession in BG2 through the use of the robes of vecna... so satisfying.... :D

[Jandor]

Two things I will say:

The Vancian system as it was in the IE games wasn't some super tactical system that rewarded planning and forethought. I barely ever had to change my spell selection.

A Cooldown system feels stupid a lot of the time, like a prolonged slower paced QTE, and there often isn't any attempt to explain what exactly, lorewise, is supposed to be "cooling down" making it really... gamey.

[Merin]

Two things I will say:

The Vancian system as it was in the IE games wasn't some super tactical system that rewarded planning and forethought. I barely ever had to change my spell selection.

A Cooldown system feels stupid a lot of the time, like a prolonged slower paced QTE, and there often isn't any attempt to explain what exactly, lorewise, is supposed to be "cooling down" making it really... gamey.

 

It really wasn't. I mean, I cut my teeth on endless plays of SSI Gold Box D&D games, so I had mage spell lists down pat well before the first IE game came out.... so it's possible I was "just that experienced"...

 

but my dislike of Vancian has nothing to do with it being tactically useful. In my experiences it wasn't. It's just a very convoluted way of getting to specialize your character for some people, and for others to exploit what turns out to be "the most effective build" syndrome. My dislike is thematic - it makes no sense to me, the whole mechanism of memorization, of fire and forget spells.

 

I can live with it. I'd almost rather had any other possible magic system.

 

My reloads in BG2 were from perma-death via one spell in certain combats - and from trying to beat Firkraag too early.

[Osvir]

Let's use another word instead of "cooldown".

 

Meditating. The Mage is meditating. Meditation is active sleep and sleeping is passive meditation. So lorewise, the Mage is meditating. Filling his soul with energy, abundantly from the spiritual forces in everything.

 

I don't know. Resting every 2 hours for 8 hours isn't really lore-ish either. What exactly is "Resting"? The Mage's memory? "I need to memorize these spells like an old man going senile! For EIGHT hours!? I'm only Level 1 I can only cast 3 spells! I spend 2-3 hours remembering and forgetting 1 spell at a time!!!!" *shakes wand* haha

Edited October 2, 2012 by Osvir

[Wintersong]

QQ about how boobplate wasnt realistic in a fantasty game where you use magic and fight monsters.

Did Obsidian explain how the laws of physics in PE allowed the boobplate to be realistic for the fantasy setting in which some use magic to fight monsters? (Monsters that may or may not use boobplate and may or may not also face mundane attacks from fighters and such) Because I do have the feeling that mundane stuff like metallic armor works basically the same as in our world. Artistic license aside. And pandering to stuff like "I want to look pretty, damned be immersion.". Or fantasy for children like Harry Potter.

 

Maybe Obsidian keeps reading feedback by the backers that take the time to post about the topic, in this case, of cooldowns, and they decide to reconsider because the arguments given are really solid and can fit the design of the game. Or maybe not and they won't fold like a beach chair to the avalanche of QQ.

[ogrezilla]

Do you think the Bioware developers would say that they don't want spell choice and preparation to be important? It has been a long time since I have played DA:O, and then it was only briefly, but I do remember spending way more time studying the manual (like maybe 4 hours) than I actually did playing it (1-2 hours). So I must have at least been under the impression that spell choice and preparation were important. I think I am going to have to play DA:O again soon just to be able to converse fluently in these threads. The casts per day mechanic is more specific, but that just seems to rule out a mana system. So it won't be exactly the same as DA:O if that's the case, but it still doesn't rule out an casting (or even melee) timer of some kind. Even an otherwise standard Vancian system can have delays implemented between spell castings. Apparently they are not going to be using rounds (a whole 'nother can of worms that), but they could quite easily use powerful spells and depower them through the use of long casting delays. Cast a fireball from your memorized spellbook then weight 240 seconds before being able to cast another spell. That sort of thing. That's the kind of mechanic that I hate and I have yet to see any reason to doubt Sawyer's intent to implement exactly that.

I'm just an optimist I guess. I look at the exact same information and my reaction is the opposite. I have yet to see any reason to believe that is Sawyer's intent.

[Gfted1]

QQ about how boobplate wasnt realistic in a fantasty game where you use magic and fight monsters.

Did Obsidian explain how the laws of physics in PE allowed the boobplate to be realistic for the fantasy setting in which some use magic to fight monsters? (Monsters that may or may not use boobplate and may or may not also face mundane attacks from fighters and such) Because I do have the feeling that mundane stuff like metallic armor works basically the same as in our world. Artistic license aside. And pandering to stuff like "I want to look pretty, damned be immersion.". Or fantasy for children like Harry Potter.

 

Maybe Obsidian keeps reading feedback by the backers that take the time to post about the topic, in this case, of cooldowns, and they decide to reconsider because the arguments given are really solid and can fit the design of the game. Or maybe not and they won't fold like a beach chair to the avalanche of QQ.

 

What?

[ImNotCreative]

8 hours? no. I think its pretty safe to assume we won't be seeing something resembling the Dragon Age system though.

 

Probably not, but will it be different enough? Nothing much to do now but wait and see. I think the community has made itself clear and there isn't a lot more to say.

the quotes all indicate that they are looking to use cooldowns to mimic a combination of the vancian system and resting while eliminating rest spamming. I expect it to feel more like BG or IWD than DA from everything we've been told so far.

 

I hope you are right. I recall JE saying that resting was out.

 

Josh said that they want to have resting mechanic that will avoid rest spamming .

 

 

 

I've talked with Tim about this for a while and here's the thing: camping out in the wilderness and setting watches and getting ambushed by jackasses has a great classic A/D&D feel to it, but it got pretty silly in games like IWD2. I'd like to build in reasonable mechanics that make you rest in the wilderness, but I don't want it to result in the sort of degenerate "rest after every fight" stuff we've faced in the past.

 

 

Source

[Merin]

QQ about how boobplate wasnt realistic

 

Wait... you're a moderator and you posted this?

 

QQ? Really?

[Sargallath Abraxium]

...jus' say no ta boobplate...

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

Edited October 2, 2012 by Sargallath Abraxium