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BasaltineBadger

What do you wish not to see in PE

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Any concession to a sense of entitlement that detracts from the core vision of the game, whether it's romances intimate encounters with NPC's, representation of 21st century Earth socio-political issues, or the ability to see and do it all in one playthrough.

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1) crap ending

 

interplay/black isle/obsidian has been consistent world-beaters in one category. is not storytelling, game stability or engaging game mechanics. nope. the obsidian guys tends to do lousy endings. really. the only game from these guys in which we had a genuine satisfying conclusion were, oddly enough, iwd. now, perhaps we can blame publishers for the way kotor 2 were concluded, but most o' the rest o' their catalog is equally anti-climactic. so... avoid craptacular endings. number 1. biggie.

 

To each his own... I thought IWD's ending was completely unremarkable and uninteresting. PS:T on the other hand had some of the most satisfying endings I've ever seen in a video game.

 

...

 

Yeah, to each their own. I know IWD is remembered as a dungeon crawl, but the difference between IWD and BG were really two-fold:

1 - player made party vs. recruited companions (the latter could, arguably, lead to a deeper or more compelling story - I'd vehemently disagree it means a BETTER story)

2 - more linear story and where you go from where vs. much more free-form exploration (arguably, the former leads to a better story)

 

Because of 2, BG was "longer" as you could wander around more.

 

But there's nothing inherently different between the two games that means one should have a better story.

 

 

I, personally, feel IWD is one of the better, if not the best, realized stories (with a beginning, middle, end, clear plot points and protagonist, etc) that Black Isle / Obsidian has done. And, for me, IWD indeed has the best story ending of any of their games (with the acknowledgment that I've never finished, nor gotten far, in PS:T so I can't fairly judge it)

 

I hadn't thought about endings before in regards to IWD but, yeah, I'm on the "better if not best ending to a story B.I./Obs has done" train.

 

EDIT - yes, above, mentioned PS:T - and yes, BG wasn't mentioned and the BG series was BioWare... it's just that BG and IWD are often compared, and I mostly see it as BG was the story heavy series and IWD was the dungeon crawl, and I feel that's a false dichotomy... IWD was a dungeon crawl, mostly, yes, but BG was more open world exploration. Story wasn't the difference. Anywho, yes, when I say "best of B.I./Obs", I know BG wasn't theirs, and I include in the actual list Fallout's, KotOR 2, Alpha Protocol, NWN2 (not finished MotB or SoZ yet, so those COULD be better), ToEE...

 

I though PS:T and MotB had wonderful endings (epecially the evil one for the MotB) I also thought some of the potential mashups for the final mission/ending of Alpha Protocol were pretty good to, though some of the better ones (like Thorton Inc.) might have been a bit obscure to discover. So I'm not too worried about a bad ending showing up.

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The evil MotB ending is absolutely the best 'bad-guy' ending you can think of.

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[intelligence] I'm fighting the Good Fight with my posts.

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I though PS:T and MotB had wonderful endings (epecially the evil one for the MotB) I also thought some of the potential mashups for the final mission/ending of Alpha Protocol were pretty good to, though some of the better ones (like Thorton Inc.) might have been a bit obscure to discover. So I'm not too worried about a bad ending showing up.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love Alpha Protocol... but I wouldn't call the endings "great" just because they are so reactive. The ending was good - not as good, IMO, as the multiple endings to Bloodlines, mind you....

 

I'm currently (trying (hard)) to play MotB. I'll update on how I think the end of that game rates.

 

I really don't believe I'll ever get through PS:T, however. I'm sorry - I love story, text and dialog... but that game is too tedious for me. *ducks tomatoes* Tedious like BG1 was, at least.

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Agree with minigames, never felt they added anything more than a skill check would be and I remember AP's hacking minigame, yeah. Also every party NPC having some sort of emotional or psychological issue (parental issues, guilt over dead family members, etc.).


Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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Assuming this game is to genuinely give input to the devs, maybe we should add a few more rules, to cut out things that aren't actually helpful.

Yeah, I'm about to start by giving feedback in what not to do in the thread first. Sue me. :p

 

E.g. "Nothing that X game does." Games have a variety of mechanics, many (such as dialogue trees, and combat) Eternity will (hopefully) have. If you didn't like a game, try to think about why, as specifically as possible, and list that. Some people have already done that well, such as specifying they didn't like how black and white choices were in mass effect. More like that.

 

Nothing that starts with "Bad." I.e. "Bad voice acting." I don't imagine anyone, anywhere, ever went "You know what we need? We need to make sure that this part of our game is just CRAP." Give the devs some credit, they want the game to be as good as possible, and I don't imagine anything will be intentionally bad. Saying "Don't make it bad" isn't helpful. Need to be specific to be helpful.

 

Anything that has already been confirmed/denied in the game. I think this also includes things that fall under hardcore modes and whatnot.

 

Not that you have to listen to any of this, but I think we all just want to help, ne?

 

 

 

(On the comment on big numbers, sad thing is, there are a lot of people like that. Want to know something crazier? In the facebook demographic, people are actually drawn more to titles with "ville" in the name. Zynga noticed this trend, reskinned an older non-ville game and changed the name, and the numbers went up. People are weird.)

I don't feel the need for big numbers. But I also wouldn't care if they were. Large or small arbitrary numbers don't really affect the game at all for me.

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I though PS:T and MotB had wonderful endings (epecially the evil one for the MotB) I also thought some of the potential mashups for the final mission/ending of Alpha Protocol were pretty good to, though some of the better ones (like Thorton Inc.) might have been a bit obscure to discover. So I'm not too worried about a bad ending showing up.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love Alpha Protocol... but I wouldn't call the endings "great" just because they are so reactive. The ending was good - not as good, IMO, as the multiple endings to Bloodlines, mind you....

 

I'm currently (trying (hard)) to play MotB. I'll update on how I think the end of that game rates.

 

I really don't believe I'll ever get through PS:T, however. I'm sorry - I love story, text and dialog... but that game is too tedious for me. *ducks tomatoes* Tedious like BG1 was, at least.

 

I said AP's ending was pretty good, not great :p meaning "not bad" as a responce to the post I quoted, but I'll admit that a lot of my enjoyment was with how my choices leading up to and including the final mission were all brought together for a finale that usually had some very obvious diffrences because of it.

 

I can also perfectly understand how you would have trouble getting through PS:T; For an IE game, the combat was nowhere near as tuned as it was in the Baldur's Gate series, nevermind IWD, and if you already find BG1 nearly too tedious to play...

Edited by Foefaller

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True story: This was brought up on a thread at BSN and got a developer response (Mike Laidlaw I believe) He flat out said: "We use big numbers because gamers like big numbers. Big numbers evoke emotional satisfaction."

I can back this up. For DA2, giant numbers was an explicit design goal.


God used to be my co-pilot, but then we crashed in the Andes and I had to eat him.

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Agree with minigames, never felt they added anything more than a skill check would be and I remember AP's hacking minigame, yeah. Also every party NPC having some sort of emotional or psychological issue (parental issues, guilt over dead family members, etc.).

Some minigames are fun. I really enjoyed the lockpicking minigame in Wizardry 8.


God used to be my co-pilot, but then we crashed in the Andes and I had to eat him.

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Quests, paths or factions that excludes onother one.

I hope we won't see a lack of quests, paths and factions that exclude other ones.

Else you end up with that ridiculous situation where you are the Master Thief, the Archwizard, the leader of the Ninja Assassins and the Ultimate Leader of the Fighter's Guild- all at once.

 

I despise the modern RPG player.

 

So don't make this type of quests, and focus the work on the real ones.

 

Just don't make 30% of the game unplayable at once.

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Just realized I forgot about FedEx quests. Or any quests that are not also stories. The bane of cRPGs and what fans of other genres use to mock them. Kill them with fire. Even the word 'quest' itself seems to encourage this sort of game-play-as-work mechanic. Quests should be stories, not tasks. If I do tedious work I expect to get paid and in real money, not in game gold. When my nephew was 7 or 8 he actually liked washing dishes. It was a novelty to him, but then he grew out of it. I can only hope that we have all grown out of that sort of thing.

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JoshSawyer: Listening to feedback from the fans has helped us realize that people can be pretty polarized on what they want, even among a group of people ostensibly united by a love of the same games. For us, that means prioritizing options is important. If people don’t like a certain aspect of how skill checks are presented or how combat works, we should give them the ability to turn that off, resources permitting.

.
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Look at Dragon age 2, or Bioware in general, and head the other direction.

Yes, I'd give the same advice. BioWare obviously tried too hard to be not too “video-gamy”, but it didn’t work very well for them.

Typical clichés that you would see in most games are:

1. Super-weapon/ God’s sword/ Magic “solve-all-problems” item - an easy “key” to a victory. I am sorry, but this just gets boring, IMHO.

2. Random characters… yeah… they just don’t work without a good history behind them.

3. Paranoiac evil master. Villains play great role in the plot and they should really encourage hero to fight. Another maniac who just wants to rule he world is not really interesting. The best villain that I’ve seen in RPG was Kerghan from Arcanum. Extremely interesting character and in my first play through I have actually joined him.

 

I hope this is not too long of a list. :)

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Some minigames are fun. I really enjoyed the lockpicking minigame in Wizardry 8.

 

I don't want them in my cRPG's, but action RPGs I don't mind certain kinds. The BioShock ones, for example (and, yes, that's stretching the RPG concept, but still), I found fun.

 

I didn't mind the hacking mini-game in Alpha Protocol. Wasn't fond of the lock-pick one (but, then, I'm not fond of ANY lock pick mini-game I've experienced.)

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Just realized I forgot about FedEx quests. Or any quests that are not also stories. The bane of cRPGs and what fans of other genres use to mock them. Kill them with fire. Even the word 'quest' itself seems to encourage this sort of game-play-as-work mechanic. Quests should be stories, not tasks. If I do tedious work I expect to get paid and in real money, not in game gold. When my nephew was 7 or 8 he actually liked washing dishes. It was a novelty to him, but then he grew out of it. I can only hope that we have all grown out of that sort of thing.

Oh god yes. Fable 3 took this to some of the most awful extremes with the whole "Fetch" and "Delivery" relationship quests. Always the exact same thing, and literally hundreds of people asking for it... it's enough to turn you to the dark side. (But then, I have a very love/hate relationship with Fable. They always have some real gems, things I absolutely adore, and then they have some truly, horrifyingly, what-were-they-thinking awful things.)

 

 

Look at Dragon age 2, or Bioware in general, and head the other direction.

Yes, I'd give the same advice. BioWare obviously tried too hard to be not too “video-gamy”, but it didn’t work very well for them.

Typical clichés that you would see in most games are:

1. Super-weapon/ God’s sword/ Magic “solve-all-problems” item - an easy “key” to a victory. I am sorry, but this just gets boring, IMHO.

2. Random characters… yeah… they just don’t work without a good history behind them.

3. Paranoiac evil master. Villains play great role in the plot and they should really encourage hero to fight. Another maniac who just wants to rule he world is not really interesting. The best villain that I’ve seen in RPG was Kerghan from Arcanum. Extremely interesting character and in my first play through I have actually joined him.

 

I hope this is not too long of a list. :)

I said it before, and I'll say it again, "anything X company does" is too broad to actually be helpful. The rest of the list, though, is, and definitely something I agree with. Well, 1 and 3, at least, I'm not sure what you mean by Ranom Characters...?

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Things already mentioned that I'd not like to see are:

  • Crappy ending: Tie up most loose ends and leave a few dangling for the next game, but tie them up in the next game. I want to care what happens at the end like when I finish a good book, not like I just “beat” the game.
  • Meaningless stats: I want to know what each stat is/does/affects as well as what is normal, subpar, devestatingly awesome, etc.
  • Pathfinding issues: NPC's should know how to walk between a few environmental items rather than walk all the way around the current map to move 4 tiles away just because there is a tree or two in the way.

Additional things I'd like to see avoided:

  • Static combat routines where I know strategy X against bad guy Y always wins. Give the NPCs, companion and hostiles, a decent AI routine.
  • Lack of respawns: like in the deep roads of DA:O. Once I cleared an area it stayed clear; I should have been swarmed by darkspawn going in and out of those areas.
  • Companion NPC's I'm apathetic towards. Write characters I love, write characters I hate; just don't make one I feel completely apathetic towards.
  • All the decent rewards go to the “good” playthrough path. Give us a good reason to play morally ambiguous and morally bankrupt characters. Furthermore make the dialogue options reflect those choices.
  • Changes to alignment: Just because my Rogue says how much he loves and wants to help the poor and downtrodden doesn't mean he isn't lying to save his own skin or gain influence with an NPC or Companion, so don't changing my alignment rating because of it.
  • Missing /False descriptions for Stats/Features/Skills or other. Don't be vague or mis-leading, just tell us what each component of our character does and means.
  • I don't want to have to beat the final boss, or any others. Why should we be prevented from joining the “big bad” in the world to make it even worse. Or subjgate lower level Bosses once I “beat” them. Even better why can't I become the “big bad” final boss and have some high level adventurer type characters come challenge me?

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The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't suck is the day they make a vacuum cleaner.

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I don't want:

 

1) Developer Mallet of Doom forcing decisons which are not consistent with what has gone before. Rational consequences = OK. "Because I, the all-seeing, all knowing dev feel like it and you're just going to have to live with it" =/= ok.

 

2) Players starting out with toothpick weapons and the durability of wet kleenex. Get real: nobody willingly goes into a fight with substandard anything. Similarly, nobody seeks out fights which they *should* lose or in which they are seriously out-gunned or out-matched. Let players get a strategic or tactical edge if they work for it. It cannot and should not always be "OMG, you survived impossible odds -- AGAIN!" Impossible odds call for a hasty retreat and regrouping to come up with a better plan where tactical or strategic superiority can be achieved.

 

3) Limiting players to 1 PC at a time - use BG approach for MP or IWD / TOEE to let players develop more than one PC - if they so choose. Why use multiple classes (again, classes = boo!) if they player can't fool around with different ones to see how they group and work together.

 

4) NPC interaction that is more onerous than a RL job. Seriously, if I wanted to keep a needy significant other, I would do that instead of gaming. I am really not going to spend my scarce gaming time being hassled by NPCs whose needs are more compelling than my own.

 

5) DO NOT CUT the non-combat skills!!! They make a huge difference in story-telling. Fire up an old game of Darklands if you want an example of how knowing formal languages can get you skills, prayers, or knowledge which is not available to grunting shield-bashers. Consider the difference that a knowledgeable alchemist can make in terms of burning off locks or enemies or selling their works for cash (which can then be used for, well, anything!). Let players choose between spending their time or money on an old sage's promised Foozle of Woe Unto The Foe or additional training in Devastation 401.

 

6) Don't forget the heroic element. Couriers are a dime a dozen. Pretty much anyone can get on a horse and ride a letter from one town to the next. People who are willing to run into danger, navigate court treacheries, risk dark alleys, negotiate treacherous swamps and ruins, rally commoners, lead a charge, slay dangerous beasts, then seek out even bigger challenges are both scarce and valuable. They may be courted by multiple parties, beset by "better" offers, and subjected to misdirection and treachery, both mundane and magical. All of these surely factor into their karma, but, really, what does delivery of a fedex package demonstrate? On time? Reliable for non-challenging tasks? Whoopee. If people wanted to farm, they'd play Farmville. If they wanted to build random things, they'd play Minecraft. You're building something for people who seek more than mundane. You know this and have already shown it, just stick by your guns.

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-respawns

-hogwash that doesn't make any sense and is there just to sound cool

Edited by kenup

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- Being forced to play a male character.

 

- Being forced to either play a goody two-shoes or being defaulted into a clown or a chaotic-evil psychopath with a single brain cell. (I'd like to play a smart, manipulative lawful-evil PC for once please!).

 

- Lack of meaningful player choices. An RPG should be about developing your own character and style as you go along, not a passive play-our-character-exactly-as-we-want-you-to interactive movie. This includes but is not limited to:

 

> being railroaded

> full voice acting

> dialogue wheel, especially if they contain goody-two-shoes/clown/mentally challenged psychopath options only

> frequent, long cinematics

> press a button and something 'awesome' happens

> ninja's that fall out of the sky or crazy acrobatic moves (yes, I'm looking at you again DA2)

 

- Lack of subtitles for those that aren't native English speakers but do prefer to play the game in English.

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I dont want to see

 

-me being "the chosen one" or anything special, been done to death

-saving the world, again been done to death, what's wrong with with a more personal quest?

-gaudy unrealstic armour and weapons

-overly restrictive rules on what equipment you can use

-linear plot with no choices

-laser beam magic...not actually a big fan of magic in games (love to see a fantasy world without it) but since it will be there i'd like it to be a bit more subtle and imaginitive that just being able to shoot lightning/fire/ice from my fingers

-being forced to use magic(see above)

-sparkly enchanted weapons

-immortal companions or companions who can only does when the plot says so, as in recent bioware games

-bottomless inventory and constant looting, I'd rather be able to carry a realistic amount of stuff and have a wagon/saddlebags/whatever to carry extra items, to be honest I'm not a big fan of looting everything and taking it back to sell anyway, seems pretty unrealistic to me to take a dead enemies armour and weapons, the armour would be damaged and probably wouldn't fit anyway and you'd probably keep a weapon you were used to and comfortable with unless the enemies was much much better...I dont remember them taking stuff back to town to sell all the time in lord of the rings...

-a linear progression of better gear, I'd rather see advantages and disadvantages to different stuff

-a long linear intro before you can roam freely

-dwarf women with beards

-bandits with "bandit" uniforms..... the dark brotherhood armor in elder scrolls is the most ridiculous thing i've ever seen....."oh look, an assassin, wonder what he wants...hello mr assassin"

Edited by motorizer

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Wolves. I would love to NOT see wolves.


 I have but one enemy: myself  - Drow saying


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Wolves. I would love to NOT see wolves.

yeah, this as well...not spending the first 2 levels fighting small furry animals

 

not that wolves are small, but thats how the begginning of baldurs gate felt...

Edited by motorizer

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- Lack of subtitles for those that aren't native English speakers but do prefer to play the game in English.

 

Exactly. I understand spoken English, but I still like subtitles. Also a conversation history, and this is a big one. It can be extremely useful to check on past conversations, and I definitely don't want to reload a past save to be able to do that.

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All I ask is for developer to not take this kind of threads too seriously. I'm facepalming here over and over again for some of these requests. If they listened to all of you, soon they would have some 1988 text-RPG in their hands.:D Nostalgia is ok, but this has to be updated to todays standards. Now it seems you are forbidding everything that possibly could make gameplay even a little bit smoother and less painful.

 

Clumsy user interface and unforgiving gameplay were not what made Baldur's Gate and Planescape: Torment great to me. In many ways they could have been lot better and some are requesting those same "not so good" features to return in this game. No thanks.

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PlanescapeTorment-1.jpg

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- Tank and spank bosses.

- Constant playing to the pc's ego.

- Randomly dropped unique weapons.

- Best weapon/armor in the game. Give me some choices okay?

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