Update #9: The power of MODES and Godlike Races: Our $2.3M Stretch Goal

[Darkpriest]

Well if you do not want much combat, turn on easy mode, and have a walkthrough with a PC that has high charisma/diplomacy/speech skills.

 

Do not go to dangerous dungeons, where combat is inevitable, but possibly not all of that will have to be explored and perhaps even optional.

 

If you pick a fighter and expect to have 'no combat' playhtrhough, then there is something wrong with the logic here...

Edited September 27, 2012 by Darkpriest

[Darth Trethon]

The real problem with the position of "I want to play the game, but with story only, no combat," is that it's the same as a guy buying a comic book and complaining that the comic book doesn't allow him to enjoy the story without the drawings.

 

Gameplay should never be something to complain about imo.....I have always said and will always say that if the story is compelling enough there's no difficulty I won't overcome and no amount of time I won't dedicate to overcoming it....trust me, in the past I HAVE. Now at the same time I really have no restrictions about turning the difficulty down or modding or doing whatever to get to the story but I won't complain about it or the gameplay. Heck I really enjoy feeling like a god in a game when I can get away with it.....just saying. But I won't go around posting for the game to be made easier or to have gameplay eliminated so I think that I deserve the same consideration on the story part.

[Dermi]

@Pidesco and @Dermi

 

I am sorry but no, not really. Those are just not going to cut it. For one they are a grand rarity, secondly the stories are just not as good and having visual representation whether in still screens of nicely drawn art or cutscenes makes everything that much better.

Nobody said it will be easy

 

The more important question at hand here is: why are people who don't care about story and plot driven by player choices here? Obsidian has a long track record for being ALL ABOUT story, player driven plot and multiple endings.....sorry but if you don't care about story why even look at Obsidian in the first place? It makes no sense to me. Not to mention that the Project Eternity description clearly states that Obsidian is dedicated to continuing their tradition of creating good stories and player driven plot and then Chris Avellone has committed to writing a novel so I can't even imagine how someone would think of seriously proposing that the story be shortchanged, diminished or ignored.

I hope that, given the context, you're not referring to me here. I'm all for good game with deep, compelling story. But it's the game that is key word here. I play games because of their gameplay and plot, so it sounds a bit weird to see people asking "I want to play your game but please, make it as non-gamey as possible, so I can only enjoy story'. It's just not that kind of medium, so redirecting such people to read books or watch movies seems a good move

Edited September 27, 2012 by Dermi

[Hornet85]

There are already more content added in previous milestone, and there will be more content in 2.2 million milestone. I am not sure why people keep demanding for more content only. You can't have all the milestone suit your personal desire. There are many people who wants different challenging game modes as well. We'll be getting both more content and more game mode, what's wrong with that?

[slopesandsam]

The real problem with the position of "I want to play the game, but with story only, no combat," is that it's the same as a guy buying a comic book and complaining that the comic book doesn't allow him to enjoy the story without the drawings.

 

So?

 

Comic books traditionally have very different settings and plots to your average book. Just look at the backstory of any major superhero. I don't like that particular kind of story, but that doesn't mean that a person who wants to read such a story without any artwork to distract their imagination doesn't have a legitimate complaint. They're a market that's not being served by any books. (Or rather, many books, because I'm betting there's at least a couple of books that ape the comic style by now).

 

The arguments about whether story should follow gameplay or whether gameplay should follow story or whether (ideally) they should serve each other are all peripheral. Whether the devs have the time or resources to implement particular features is also a different argument - one that nobody but the devs can weigh in on with any authority. The big issue with this whole topic is that one group of people are dictating how another group should enjoy their media. Someone who cheats their way through a game to experience the story has just as much right to play that game as someone who presses escape every time a story-related section occurs so that they can get back to the gameplay. And there should be nothing offensive, or threatening, about people asking for a feature that you will not partake in.

Edited September 27, 2012 by slopesandsam

[Pidesco]

Aaand I'm out.

[Rostere]

Bioware has pandered gameplay-hating "players" long enough. If you want to enjoy a story, read a book. How is that so difficult to understand? As for this game, select EASY, don't select any of these three options and enjoy.

What. You're a depressing person... You know, there are people who enjoy BOTH a good story and tactical gameplay.

[Nakia]

snip

 

The arguments about whether story should follow gameplay or whether gameplay should follow story or whether (ideally) they should serve each other are all peripheral. Whether the devs have the time or resources to implement particular features is also a different argument - one that nobody but the devs can weigh in on with any authority. The big issue with this whole topic is that one group of people are dictating how another group should enjoy their media. Someone who cheats their way through a game to experience the story has just as much right to play that game as someone who presses escape every time a story-related section occurs so that they can get back to the gameplay. And there should be nothing offensive, or threatening, about people asking for a feature that you will not partake in.

 

I think we may have a problem of semantics. No one is trying to dictate how you play the game. We are being given choices to how we play the game. One player may set the difficulty leave to easy, specialize in non-combat skills and play the game. Another player may opt for a different difficulty level and specialize in both combat and non-combat. Another may opt for the maximum difficulty choosing to eliminate any help. may even solo the game.

The story will be good because Obsidian is doing it.

 

If you are saying that you do not want to do any questing, any negioating, any action but wander through a fantasy setting then I am truly puzzled. The will be no story without game play. Game play is part of the story and the story is part of the game play. Now I am getting confused.

 

 

PS: Does anyone remember a mod called IIRC "Game Begone"?Baldur's Gate II

Edited September 27, 2012 by Nakia

[evdk]

Bioware has pandered gameplay-hating "players" long enough. If you want to enjoy a story, read a book. How is that so difficult to understand? As for this game, select EASY, don't select any of these three options and enjoy.

What. You're a depressing person... You know, there are people who enjoy BOTH a good story and tactical gameplay.

They probably don't clamour for removal of gameplay then.

[Darth Trethon]

I think @Nakia has the issue spot on. I play for the story but enjoy the gameplay in a different way....I don't play for the challenge or difficulty because I enjoy feeling all powerful in a game so I do enjoy the gameplay just differently. Nonetheless at the same time if the easiest difficulty available is really hard or a tough difficulty is the only way for me to get to a story element I enjoy I won't shy from dealing with it and I won't complain about it.

[Olauron Mor-Galad]

The more important question at hand here is: why are people who don't care about story and plot driven by player choices here? Obsidian has a long track record for being ALL ABOUT story, player driven plot and multiple endings.....sorry but if you don't care about story why even look at Obsidian in the first place? It makes no sense to me. Not to mention that the Project Eternity description clearly states that Obsidian is dedicated to continuing their tradition of creating good stories and player driven plot and then Chris Avellone has committed to writing a novel so I can't even imagine how someone would think of seriously proposing that the story be shortchanged, diminished or ignored.

Obsidian is known not only for good stories but for providing good roleplaying experience as well. Roleplaying experience assumes both combat and non-combat abilities of player character. There is easy difficulty mode for those who prefer actual story above efforts to advance it. There are non-combat abilities for those who want to avoid combat.

 

From my point of view nobody here says that story is unimportant. But if you want only story then... then adventure games suit you more.

[evdk]

 

From my point of view nobody here says that story is unimportant. But if you want only story then... then adventure games suit you more.

Adventure game and a browser page opened on gamefaqs, more likely.

[Darth Trethon]

The more important question at hand here is: why are people who don't care about story and plot driven by player choices here? Obsidian has a long track record for being ALL ABOUT story, player driven plot and multiple endings.....sorry but if you don't care about story why even look at Obsidian in the first place? It makes no sense to me. Not to mention that the Project Eternity description clearly states that Obsidian is dedicated to continuing their tradition of creating good stories and player driven plot and then Chris Avellone has committed to writing a novel so I can't even imagine how someone would think of seriously proposing that the story be shortchanged, diminished or ignored.

Obsidian is known not only for good stories but for providing good roleplaying experience as well. Roleplaying experience assumes both combat and non-combat abilities of player character. There is easy difficulty mode for those who prefer actual story above efforts to advance it. There are non-combat abilities for those who want to avoid combat.

 

From my point of view nobody here says that story is unimportant. But if you want only story then... then adventure games suit you more.

 

I'm not disagreeing about Obsidian which is precisely why I do not complain about gameplay or difficulty and never will either, I'm just saying that's not the main reason I play.....what I took issue with was a poster saying that if you want story to go read books and then others reinforcing that with links/pictures of books just because someone said they enjoyed the story more.

 

And I disagree about adventure games.....they have no plot changing choices or even nearly as exciting stories so they really are no replacement for the kind of RPGs Obsidian makes.

 

All I'm saying is that to me role-playing is primarily about the plot driving/changing moral choices I make and less about how my character looks/dresses/kills enemies. I can and will micromanage stats and play the RPG numbers game if necessary all I'm saying is that I usually prefer to play differently.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Darth Trethon

[Nakia]

Seriously, very seriously, I am really confused about what the argument is about and why it is going on. We all agree that Obsidian makes good stories, good games or we wouldn't be here. This thread is about various choices they are giving the player. We will have the chance to play the game the way each one of us wants to play. I think the comment about reading the book arose and was repeated was because some one made a post that sounded as if they wanted a story but no game play.

 

Now for game play and story I would like that Haunted House with some mystery story that has been mentioned in another thread. I think that would make a good inclusion for a stretch goal. Hmm Maybe it could be attached to that house we are getting.

[Inertia]

Nvm i pmed you darth to clarify instead of doing this here.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Inertia

[Darth Trethon]

OK now that the whole story vs. gameplay issue is out of the way(hopefully) I just want to say that I have no problem at all with the 2.3 mil stretch goal.....as a matter of fact I am quite intrigued by the godlike race(yes I'm aware that they are far from all powerful and their uniqueness can be a disadvantage too) because it is exactly the kind of content that provides a very valuable addition to lore and story.

[Darth Trethon]

To me it isn't about dictating how others enjoy the media but how people who don't enjoy the media for what it is @ it's base level dictating how the game is overall this is in the case of having no game play and only story btw not an easy mode. To me it’s like being a console player coming here and saying i want to play this PC role playing game and, oh u know but i would like there to be a "mode" where i played on my xbox and the requirements fit that format, the controls were game pad friendly, the fov was fit for my big ass 90 inch TV then assume me asking for those things assuming i got them in no way affected how the pc game was designed.

 

Ugh....please don't go there, someone will pick it up and run with it.

 

No, the reason I picked up this argument and stuck with it is because I always felt that the "hardcore" crowd is a bit pushy when it comes to other people enjoying a game differently. I can play and overcome any difficulty if the story is compelling enough but I see no point to it unless I have to and I find it quite distasteful when you have the fans of insane difficulties criticizing and acting superior. I'm just all too used to seeing more casual players get run over by aggressive arguments.

[Monte Carlo]

I have nothing against content-tourists. Choose EASY and make a diplomat, like someone else said. What I *do* have a beef with is people asking for features that are utterly at variance with what the precursor titles were about. Why? Because (a) they eat development resources (b) they are extraneous (see initial point) and C experience teaches us that the more you pander to gamers who have sucked at the teat of Bioware, the more they will bug you and lobby for yet more dripping wet auto-gaming.

[Stun]

I thought Tim Cain's Update #7 would have by now put to rest these arguments of: "Can I has a skip combat button plz?"

Edited September 27, 2012 by Stun

[aVENGER]

To put it simply, Eternity wouldn't be a true spiritual successor to the Infinity Engine games without tactical combat.

[Methuseleh]

What I am hearing in this thread sounds like "please don't take away our story or jam your story down our throat." Crpgers tend to want to be able to make their own story. We're not adverse to consequences. Make a bad call, bad things happen. We don't like it when we put in huge amounts of time and effort to develop our characters and our stories only to see that investment ripped away or completely ignored.

 

This was the problem with Mass Effect's ending more than anything else.

 

I will go out on a limb and say this as well: certain plot devices (child of bhaal springs to mind) are inherently limiting. Elevating the main character for some reason is convenient for plot purposes, but IWD didn't do that and was still a great game. Same for TOEE.

 

Game designers are bestowing an interactive gift upon their players. Both sides may have an experience they want to share, but ultimately, choice and preference makes for a better game than authoritarian dictation of a predetermined outcome.

[evdk]

To me it isn't about dictating how others enjoy the media but how people who don't enjoy the media for what it is @ it's base level dictating how the game is overall this is in the case of having no game play and only story btw not an easy mode. To me it’s like being a console player coming here and saying i want to play this PC role playing game and, oh u know but i would like there to be a "mode" where i played on my xbox and the requirements fit that format, the controls were game pad friendly, the fov was fit for my big ass 90 inch TV then assume me asking for those things assuming i got them in no way affected how the pc game was designed.

 

Ugh....please don't go there, someone will pick it up and run with it.

 

No, the reason I picked up this argument and stuck with it is because I always felt that the "hardcore" crowd is a bit pushy when it comes to other people enjoying a game differently. I can play and overcome any difficulty if the story is compelling enough but I see no point to it unless I have to and I find it quite distasteful when you have the fans of insane difficulties criticizing and acting superior. I'm just all too used to seeing more casual players get run over by aggressive arguments.

 

I don't see why I shouldn't be bothered by these demands - these ideas have been occupying my favourite genre for years and when there is finally a chance to have an old school game here they come again demanding the same stupid bloody useless dumbing down of features that can be had in any main stream production.

[Darth Trethon]

I have nothing against content-tourists. Choose EASY and make a diplomat, like someone else said. What I *do* have a beef with is people asking for features that are utterly at variance with what the precursor titles were about. Why? Because (a) they eat development resources (b) they are extraneous (see initial point) and C experience teaches us that the more you pander to gamers who have sucked at the teat of Bioware, the more they will bug you and lobby for yet more dripping wet auto-gaming.

 

I must have missed it....what such feature was requested that offended you so?

[slopesandsam]

Seriously, very seriously, I am really confused about what the argument is about and why it is going on. We all agree that Obsidian makes good stories, good games or we wouldn't be here. This thread is about various choices they are giving the player. We will have the chance to play the game the way each one of us wants to play. I think the comment about reading the book arose and was repeated was because some one made a post that sounded as if they wanted a story but no game play.

 

My argument was simply that people should be allowed to enjoy something the way they want to enjoy it. And asking for what they want is not a bad thing. I was not making any particular claims about how PE will eventually turn out, my comments were specifically directed at the other forum members who were being dismissive or rude about players who want to experience story above all in their games.

 

My own personal opinion is: Good gameplay and good story really support each other. Good gameplay can and should make the story more immersive, and good story makes the gameplay more compelling. I intend to play PE on what will hopefully be a well balanced "Normal" setting (at least the first time, I will probably be tempted to try out the harder difficulties). And I do believe that Obsidian have an excellent track record insofar as storytelling in games goes, so I trust them to produce something that I will find compelling. I also suspect that whatever "easy mode" turns out to be, it will likely satisfy a majority of the minority who want to play this game purely for the story.

 

However, I believe very strongly that people who just want to experience the story, or play the game any weird way they like, shouldn't be shouted down or ridiculed. I think story is the most important element in games. I think games are a vastly under-utilised storytelling medium, and that so many otherwise excellent games are made with only cursory nods towards narrative is something of a tragedy. I happen to also like good gameplay. If I can get a game that does both really well, and ties them together, that game will probably be one of my favourites. But I'm not about to disparage someone who doesn't value what I value in games.

[Nakia]

Maybe what we need is that skip game mod I mentioned before. Due to the fact we have so many people posting here things get posted while I am composing my post. I am not getting a pop-up that tells me a Post has been made and do I want to modify mine. If my post follows yours do NOT assume that my post is in answer to your post. My posts are aimed at the general discussion which I admit I am finding non-productive. Obsidian is know for its story telling. OE has promised us choices and diversity. Obsidian cannot please everyone 100% of the time. Again, we are all fans of the old school games and are supporting this project because of that experience. Can we please stop arguing about it and give some productive feedback to OE?

 

Trust them.

 

I wonder what the next two races will be like. Marked by the gods. I also hope the elves will look different from the humans rather than looking like rather than humans with pointed ears. What variety of elves will we have?

Edited September 27, 2012 by Nakia