When Counter-cliche becomes cliche

[Jancarius]

So, look, I get that some people don't like the Tolkien elves - Where Elves are human+immortality+knowledge+magic+grace and the ONLY downside they have is being less physically hearty. But I have to admit, the counter trend, most easily illustrated in Dragon Age of the "post Civilization collapse" elves is also starting to bore me. Dwarves also have the most monolithic culture outside the drow, of being underground Scottsmen.

 

I realize that I should have a specific point to make, so here it is: Since we get to pick the PC race (presumably), let us also pick the culture. Probably one of the best features of Dragon Age: Origins was the multiple starting points, and I'd like to see something similar in Eternity. A set of potential stories that all funnel you towards the 'event' which sets you on your path.

[themanclaw]

I totally get where you're coming from but...

I realize that I should have a specific point to make, so here it is: Since we get to pick the PC race (presumably), let us also pick the culture.

I'm not sure its necessary. One simple starting point may be easier and more practical.

 

On the note of cliches, I am getting tired of seeing elves and Orcs in every fantasy game. I know Tolkien defined the genre by such, but I think there is a lot more creativity to explore. I'm guessing Obsidian already has an idea of the kind of races they intend to implement by now anyways.

[Jancarius]

I think elves and orcs are easy archetypes, and that's why we always see them. The elven culture is typically for those who want to see graceful, beautiful and cultured heroes (I myself am in this category). Orcs have, courtesy of World of Warcraft, split into Tolkien Orcs (rargh rampage and pillage) and WoW Orcs (Druid/shaman chaotic race).

 

Well, certainly it's not NECESSARY. I've played every game Oblivion has released and none of them have multiple starting points, so we know that they can write a great game without it. KOTOR2's conversation with Aidan where you set the events of KotoR1 for example, is a good way to set up background without needing to play through it.

 

The thing I'm wary about with 'new' races is the same thing that caused me to put a stop to race expansion in my D&D games. At some point, I feel like it becomes "Here's an object/animal. Now it's an anthropomorhpic biped. NEW RACE" It's worse in D&D because they've moved to tryign to make it very modular, so when a race should logically be impacting it's environment significantly, it's weird to be like "oh, yeah, and now there's tree/rock/bird/rat people, and they've always been here, and here's how you feel about them." Less a problem when you're constructing/releasing the entire world at once, obviously.

[themanclaw]

There's no reason they can't use well thought-out cultures and apply them to new sapient races. As much as the movie Avatar was simply a huge display of impressive CGI, I think they did a good job creating a race that looks human enough to be relatable, and yet exotic.

 

Oh, and personally, I dislike the elves because they're stuck up, and, in my opinion lack the finest unique (to fantasy universes) qualities of humans; passion and determination

[eimatshya]

While the Origin stories were easily my favorite part of DA:O, I don't really feel they're necessary. I would be satisfied with a set of text backgrounds that you could select at character creation like in Arcanum (this would also lead to much more freedom of background, assuming there were as many as we got in that game).

[metiman]

Ugh. Dragon Age again. Some of you seem like you've never played any non-Bioware games. You could have used ToEE as a better example of what you are asking for. I liked it in ToEE and I did play enough of Dragon Age (just barely) to experience the same sort of thing. I like it, but it doesn't seem absolutely necessary to me. I'd rather have more branching paths after you start the game. It also does somewhat limit the plot because you have to make different initial stories mesh with the main story thread. But then all branching somewhat limits the plot.

[nikolokolus]

I'd rather not see humans get the Elder Scrolls treatment, however if they do implement cultural differences it might be kind of cool, but damn that could really multiply their development costs (in terms of branching dialogue) for a game with such a modest budget.

[Volourn]

"You could have used ToEE as a better example of what you are asking for."

 

Nah. DA did it way better. TOEE's was barely adequate and not worth the effort. In DA, you got to actually live the life of the intro not just a 2 min (if lucky) barely there ascene. I just want it to be even deeper than DA's and more added to it.

[AwesomeOcelot]

Multiple starting points were fine in DA:Origins, they're double edged though because they somewhat limit character creation, you couldn't have the type of character creation that Arcanum has with them. Perhaps Origins+ system, the plus being a more vague, user defined starting point option. Also the hand holding in Origins in the beginning was not great.

[Gurkog]

DA:O style intros are too restrictive. I would rather have the ability to imagine any backstory instead of being told what my story is. DA:O intros were entertaining, but not good for RPGs. Although, they could provide a lot of vague background text like in Arcanum.

[TrashMan]

So, look, I get that some people don't like the Tolkien elves - Where Elves are human+immortality+knowledge+magic+grace and the ONLY downside they have is being less physically hearty.

 

Actually in Tolkien lore, elves were superior in every way. EVERY way.

Your'e thinking D&D. There the evels are physicly less strong.

 

 

Oh, and personally, I dislike the elves because they're stuck up, and, in my opinion lack the finest unique (to fantasy universes) qualities of humans; passion and determination

 

Hehe...funnily enouhg tolkien elves didn't lack that either. Feanor anyone?

Edited September 26, 2012 by TrashMan

[Monte Carlo]

Michael Moorc0ck's Melniboneans were the best take on elves I've seen, amoral, chem-addicted, Medici-like ubermensch living long lives characterized by cruelty, torture and ennui. I always see elves as baddies: superior, aloof, clever, scheming, deadly.

 

In folklore elves have always been slightly sinister, the nature-loving bow equipped hippy trope makes me puke.

 

As for Dwarves, I actually liked the Dragon Age take on them and their culture.

[Aedelric]

TrashMan is quite right, go read the Silmarillion, Elves are hardy, strong willed, passionate. Essentially humans plus.

 

So long as the Eternity elves are not short, long eared mopey tree loving pansy's I will be happy.

 

I really want is strong willed, superior, wrathful elves, too many fantasy settings they have no backbone. Not that I will be playing one, plain old human for me. :D

[teknoman2]

While the Origin stories were easily my favorite part of DA:O, I don't really feel they're necessary. I would be satisfied with a set of text backgrounds that you could select at character creation like in Arcanum (this would also lead to much more freedom of background, assuming there were as many as we got in that game).

one thing i disliked though about arcanum's background stories is their lack of involvement in the game other than the set up of your initial stats and skills. you start in a zepelin... where was it that you boarded it and where was it bound to (the answer is given at some point in the game and it's that you got on it on Caladon and the destination was Tarant, and that brings us to more important questions)? who did you leave behind at your departure, who did you know and who knew you? where was your home? what did you intend to do at the destination? why, if you had already been in caladon in order to board the zepelin, did you not even know where it is or if it even existed? all these things are missing from the game, as if you were born at the moment the zepelin crashed... you dont know anything about the place you are in, and no one in the whole world knows you. even if your family in most cases still lives somewhere in the western half of the continent.

[Shades]

Michael Moorc0ck's Melniboneans were the best take on elves I've seen, amoral, chem-addicted, Medici-like ubermensch living long lives characterized by cruelty, torture and ennui. I always see elves as baddies: superior, aloof, clever, scheming, deadly.

 

In folklore elves have always been slightly sinister, the nature-loving bow equipped hippy trope makes me puke.

 

As for Dwarves, I actually liked the Dragon Age take on them and their culture.

 

Yes, I'm not terribly fond of LotR as a whole so I would love to see some inspirations from other sources such as Michael Moorc0ck. Something more like the Melniboneans would be great (as long as they didn't just turn into drow).

 

To be honest what would interest me the most would be seeing societies that function differently along with the races. You might have a completely isolationist nation for example, or some nations may have kings or emperors while others might have something else entirely. I too likes the way the DA dwarves had a caste system in place, though I like that it seems the dwarves in PE won't all be stuck underground.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Shades

[Monte Carlo]

I always thought Gary Gygax basically made the Drow underground Melniboneans after reading an Elric book.

[Cantousent]

I think the OP's main point is to get away from the counter-cliche that has become cliched. I don't think that using elves and dwarves in the way Tolkien envisioned them is a bad thing since sometimes the attempt to break out of the cliche creates another cliche. If I'm going to have one cliche or the other, I'll take Tolkien's any day. On the other hand, I do think coming up with new and interesting ideas just because you want to try new things is good. If your motive is simply, "I hate the cliche," then I think the idea itself is shallow. If your motive is, "what cool things can we do?" then I think you've got a great point. Anyhow, I like this idea for elves and dwarves:

 

I think it would be cool if there were one where the dwarves were the ancient race and humans were the young race. The dwarves basically run everything as an empire, which they conduct with brutal efficiency and well. Elves are actually mutated humans who have undergone some sort of magically expedited evolutionary process. They are long lived, quite fertile, and growing in number. They are so beautiful and durable that humans feel inferior and it's caused an epidemic of hopelessness among the human population. The dwarves feel threatened by this quickly growing evlish population and forge a tenuous alliance with humanity to subdue or even destroy the elves. Hell, let the player choose to play either a member of the dwarven alliance or one of the elves.

[themanclaw]

TrashMan is quite right, go read the Silmarillion, Elves are hardy, strong willed, passionate. Essentially humans plus.

Wrong. They have long natural life spans, speed, finesse, and snobbishness. That is all. They lack determination, passion, loyalty and heart. They're basically the rich hipsters of the fantasy genre.

[Tuco Benedicto]

I love how people keep namedropping Tolkien as an example of "generic fantasy" and mixing it with what they call "bland D&D crap", when actually Tolkien's work was anything but bland and generic.

Sure, it inspired a ****load of highly derivative stuff that re-used to some extent some of its tropes, but that's pretty much all.

 

 

They lack determination, passion, loyalty and heart.

Wrong. Tolkien's elves, especially in the Noldor tribes (who also had the bigger role in the Silmarillion) were quite fierce and passionate people.

In fact, being terrible fierce and passionate is probably their most distinctive trait and the very first cause of most of their problems and tribulations across the ages.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Tuco Benedicto

[themanclaw]

I love how people keep namedropping Tolkien as an example of "generic fantasy"

Tolkien INVENTED the fantasy genre as we know it. It's not generic, its foundation.

Wrong. Tolkien's elves, especially in the Noldor tribes (who also had the bigger role in the Silmarillion) were quite fierce and passionate people.

In fact, being terrible fierce and passionate is probably their most distinctive trait and the very first cause of most of their problems and tribulations across the ages.

And so that's why they left Middle-Earth when it was doomed instead of fighting? You could say because they had a small population, but that is the panda bear argument. They could have reproduced. Do you know why they didn't? Because they lack passion and purpose; they don't see raising a new life to stand as an example of goodness as important in a universe where everything is at stake. See King Theoden's final speech to the Rohirrim. That is a quintessential example of the difference between men and elves. Men will lay down their lives because they know that love and freedom cannot be preserved by fleeing or ignoring the threats to it. That is where elves fail. They don't feel like love and freedom are what define them, so instead they shirk responsibility and neglect the other free races.

[Cantousent]

Sooo... I take it you don't like elves, claw? Anyhow, I like elves quite a bit and I'm glad they're in the game. :Cant's shrug and grin icon: I hope it doesn't eat at you too terribly much. A little, maybe, but not too much. Anyhow, the underlying point is still cliche. Either that or more aimless elf hate on the part of clawman. It's all good.

[Tuco Benedicto]

And so that's why they left Middle-Earth when it was doomed instead of fighting?

Do you even know what are you talking about?

They didn't left Middle Earth, they left their original home (Valinor) to start a fierce blood hunt for the one who betrayed them and stole their Silmaril. And they went far enough to slain other elves, their "brothers", just because those were on their way.

They accepted to be *exiled* from Valinor and they disobeyed the Valar just because they were so passionate about their revenge that they just couldn't let it go.

 

Their bloodlust went on for ages before, just after many centuries, decimated by endless battles, some of them started getting old and tired of all the struggle and accepted to go back in Valinor.

[Nakia]

In my opinion humans are the biggest cliches in fantasy. I like to play other races. In the BG and IWD series I never played a human. My IWD parties never included a human. Humans are much over rated.

 

As for a starting point as long as I am not a prisoner I don't care were I start. I enjoyed the starting origins in DALO but don't feel that is necessarily the best way to go. Obsidian is known for its writing so I am sure they will come up with something decent. They have already said there will be diversity even with the races.

[themanclaw]

And so that's why they left Middle-Earth when it was doomed instead of fighting?

Do you even know what are you talking about?

They didn't left Middle Earth, they left their original home (Valinor) to start a fierce blood hunt for the one who betrayed them and stole their Silmaril. And they went far enough to slain other elves, their "brothers", just because those were on their way.

They accepted to be *exiled* from Valinor and they disobeyed the Valar just because they were so passionate about their revenge that they just couldn't let it go.

 

Their bloodlust went on for ages before, just after many centuries, decimated by endless battles, some of them started getting old and tired of all the struggle and accepted to go back in Valinor.

I never finished the Simalarion, and don't remember much of what I did read...

However, your argument seems to contradict itself.

I don't think a perfect race would abandon Middle Earth to be, for all the reason they had to believe, dominated by Sauron, who would surely spread his dominion to all corners of the world... all just to settle the passion they place in revenge, where men placed their passion, and their lives, in preserving what made them free and compassionate.