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There should be a mega-dungeon. I think it's a delightful idea -- perhaps one that spans under the entire region represented in the game. I didn't like the way the "Deep Roads" don't let one travel throughout Ferelden. Try hiring someone who can draw extensive maps and who is familiar with the concept that monsters are a biosphere.

 

The one problem is I'm not sure how much time they'll have to get monsters. Sure, this might be a retro-style game but there should be variety in a labyrinth as sizable as we'd like, variety in monsters, variety in architecture. And it shouldn't be the central focus of the game. They can afford to hire a bunch of people with the millions they'll be getting, but millions doesn't mean they get the Dalai Lama to help with graphics.

 

Also they'd need a really cool idea for how the dungeons got there. It can't be the Deep Roads although a devastated subterranean civilization is an idea at least as old as the real-world Garamantes of the Sahara. It can't be a mob of souls that think they're a dungeon; Final Fantasy XII fans would laugh at us. And if it's a mad wizard, we're all going to spit up our milk. Ancient sewers? Couldn't be. Train tunnels is one idea. Another idea might be that it's the land of the gods, which might be more unique than most dungeon concepts, albeit mythology holds chthonic deities aplenty and there's some evidence (nay, rumors) of ancient TIbetan temples dug into the mountains themselves (and I'm not describing Aghartha nor Shambhala). The Beijing Anomaly is suggestive at underground oceans teeming with strange life and perhaps islands.

 

I don't think I've ever seen an intrinsically overland computer game with an impressive dungeon system ever. I have hope there would be need for ropes, as the OP stated, lanterns, water, food, pet mice on twine leashes, dolls, iron spikes and heavy mallets, adhesive locks (to affix to a door for aesthetic reasons), tents, etc. Of course, all of this could be portrayed as it being assumed the players have the basic materials for survival. Yes, it wouldn't be as fun as a tabletop game when no one remembers to bring a ten foot pole with them. We must remember that many players won't *want* to laden themselves with nifty survival gear. Also, what's the use when there's walkthroughs and play guides? We must remember that if a puzzle or test is to remain interesting it must also be fun. So maybe we won't have numerous creative solutions for crossing a deep ravine or fording an underground river (or sailing down it).

 

My hope is for a massive, fascinating game that all will adore. Let's hope for the best for Obsidian and ourselves!


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The problem that I see is a shadow game, where there's such a large dungeon complex that goes to the same areas and one overland which does the same things. I woulnd't want to see the devs committ so many resournces to two different areas that serve the same purpose only to find that half the players go one way and half go the other. Don't get me wrong, it's awesome to hav the replayabilty, but the time and effort would be a shame to waste on something that, by definition, half of the first time players would never see. IF they can do it so that folks see a significant part of both, that coudl be good.


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A big, dark, challenging dungeon? YES please. With treasure, lots of juicy, shiny treasure! Or not... what kind of surprise it would bring when the adventuring party has cleaved it's way through hordes of monsters and traps just to find out that they were chasing an exaggerated legend.

 

Also if the dungeon has a tip top story within it to be found, I'll probably never leave the damn structure. I'll stay in it's depths, rolling in it's treasure, wether it's gold or knowledge.

 

So to sum it up, a big, well written dungeon is most welcome.


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I can't say this topic hasn't come up in meetings. Why don't you guys turn this into a user poll and see if there is serious interest in a mega-dungeon. The things I would be curious about are...

 

1. How mega is your idea of a mega dungeon? 5 levels?10 levels? 20? More?

2. How important do you think story is in said mega dungeon?

3. Would you still support a mega dungeon if it diverted resources from the main plot/game? My guess is no, but I had to ask.

4. Is this something you would like to see as a high end stretch goal or set of stretch goals?

 

I would adore a huge dungeon.

 

1. Ten levels would be great with some meaty content and frightening monsters on each level. An important creature at the bottom like a Dragon would be great.

 

2. Story is very important to me. Perhaps even link it to the lore of the soul magic, maybe there is a kind of 'soul well' the dragon is guarding half way down where the purgatory that Sawyer mentions breaks through to our realm. We then continue the mega dungeon in the 'soul purgatory' gaining lore and advice from those in limbo and dealing with strange creatures that dwell there.

 

3. I don't want it to draw too heavily from resources but since it will provide a lot of gameplay in itself then I don't think it will be so harmful to the game.

 

4 It would be a nice stretch goal to have and may encourage some people to pledge more. :)

Edited by Moonlight Butterfly

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Was it Ruins of Undermountain that spanned 3 modules? If there is some spanning underground system it could be uncovered over several games (we all hope this first adventure spawns sequels) as a sort of Undermountian meets Deep Roads. For now I think one massive, 15 hour dungeon would be great on its own.

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I do not like big dungeons. To be honest, that is why BG2 sadly put me off a bit (really sadly because it was such a great game otherwise)

 

BUT I can understand gamers (especially old school gamers) to want one, as it is part of the genre

 

So having one big mega dungeon, with traps, tunnels, corridors, doors, monsters, treasures, the kind of dungeon that goes ever deeper and ever harder, why not. Maybe it could be optionnal, i.e. there is a way to avoid it althoug either it adds some good flavor to the storyline, or it is actually related to a big juicy side quest (the kind of quest that are close to being as memorable as the main one).

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It can't be optional. If it's optional you can't put good loot in it thus negating the whole point.

 

So mandatory and about 150% of Watcher's Keep. Stretch goal would be good.

 

But again the loot must be good and the fights really hard. No resting unless level clear. Once you enter the next level you can't go back unless new level also clear.

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I'm all for mega-dungeons (plural), especially if they are cleverly designed: interesting to explore, filled with puzzles, challenging, rewarding.

If they must be just some sort of time sink where you grind tons of monsters walking through corridors (i.e. Deep Roads) they can go **** themselves.

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I'm in favour of having fewer, but really long and complex dungeons... as opposed to tons of small ones everywhere.

 

Basically, I don't want to be dipping in and out of dungeons all the time (to the point where it just feels like filler content), but when I do delve into a dungeon, it should feel like an epic journey.

Edited by Piccolo

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"1. How mega is your idea of a mega dungeon? 5 levels?10 levels? 20? More?"

 

Depends how big the levels are. But, big. Think WK and DT big.

 

 

"2. How important do you think story is in said mega dungeon?"

 

Very important. Story and atmosphere 9along with encounters and exploration) are what make dungeons awesome. See Wk and figuring out why it was build in the first place.

 

 

"3. Would you still support a mega dungeon if it diverted resources from the main plot/game? My guess is no, but I had to ask."

 

Sure as long as the story still makes sense.

 

 

"4. Is this something you would like to see as a high end stretch goal or set of stretch goals? "

 

Fit it where you can.

 

 

"It can't be optional. If it's optional you can't put good loot in it thus negating the whole point."

 

That's silly. Some of the best loot ever found in games are found in optional areas. It gives players more incentive to explore.

 

"So mandatory and about 150% of Watcher's Keep. Stretch goal would be good."

 

Not mandatory.

 

"But again the loot must be good and the fights really hard."

 

True dat.

 

 

"No resting unless level clear. Once you enter the next level you can't go back unless new level also clear. "

 

This is illogical.


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Dungeons in recent games have become rather pointless affairs for me, because they amount to no more than caves. And not the long, labyrinthine caves, either... am talking more wolf-den kind of things. That's one of the reasons I was one of the very few (apparently, judging by the BSN commentary, anyway) who appreciated the Deep Roads in Dragon Age Origins. Too Long! they cried. Too Hard! they screamed. Well, it's the Deep freakin' Roads, of all places! A place of nightmares for surface dwellers, of deep secrets and certain death. It ain't supposed to be a walk in the park... and it wasn't. Was one of the only places where the lore of the place actually matched up with the area design.

 

That was good.

 

Durlag's Tower had the same harmony between story (lore/backstory) and area design/atmosphere. So did the Severed Hand. So did Dragon's Eye. So did the Luremaster's Castle. All of those dungeons remain to this day as some of the best and most satisfying moments in gaming I've had over the years. They were big, they were challenging, they were atmospheric, and actually finding the way out was itself something of an accomplishment.

 

Games need more dungeons.

Edited by Magnum Opus

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It must be optional.

 

I am perfectly OK with ressources being used on this, as, once again, it is part of the genre.

 

But, this game must not be an IE-like version of Temple of Elemental Evil, or, worse, a new Diablo II. That is not what BG or Planescape Torment were about.

 

Let us make this dungeon something important. Some legendary place every adventurer dreams of exploring without daring to. The kind of exploit the PC can boast about after completing it. With a good side quest attached.

 

Just leave a way to avoid it (either by giving it its own questline, or by making it possible to only explore part of it before resuming the main quest). This way dungeon crawlers may enjoy in it, while others (as I am), can avoid something they consider tedious and not fun.

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3. Would you still support a mega dungeon if it diverted resources from the main plot/game? My guess is no, but I had to ask.

 

HELL NO! A game can't be everything to everyone. If you want to make a story driven game, make one, if you want to make a dungeon crawler, make another one. Never mind the fact that these concepts tend to appeal to different people, if you try to do both simultaneously, likely neither one will come out terribly well.

 

What kind of sense would it make to take a well-paced, narrative driven game and just crowbar a major timesink in the form a mega dungeon right in the middle of it? It's going to kill the pacing, feel out of place, and likely will be too long and boring for people who play for the story and not nearly long enough for people who like dungeon crawlers.

 

It's a pretty bad idea to begin with, but do all this at the expense of the main plot on top of that? No, no, NO! Might be the worst idea I've seen on this forum thus far.

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I can't say this topic hasn't come up in meetings. Why don't you guys turn this into a user poll and see if there is serious interest in a mega-dungeon. The things I would be curious about are...

 

1. How mega is your idea of a mega dungeon? 5 levels?10 levels? 20? More?

2. How important do you think story is in said mega dungeon?

3. Would you still support a mega dungeon if it diverted resources from the main plot/game? My guess is no, but I had to ask.

4. Is this something you would like to see as a high end stretch goal or set of stretch goals?

 

I am very much in favor of a large dungeon. I think it needs to be completely optional and pretty hard. The end fight of the dungeon should probably be harder than the end fight of the main story, or at least on the same level. Now to answer the questions:

 

1: Durlag's Tower was awesome and because it was awesome it felt a little short. So I'd say longer than Durlag's Tower for sure. Monte's suggestion of 50% longer seems fair enough.

 

2: Story is important, in that the dungeon needs a story, a reason to be explored. So it needs lore and a mystery of some sort. it doesn't need a ton of dialogue though if the lore and mystery can be explored through other means. Also it doesn't need to tie in to the main story at all. Although it could, but should be in such a manner that it's still not required to complete or understand the main story.

 

3: Yes. While I like story and atmosphere in my games, I also like challenges to overcome. So yes, it definitely is something I would like to see prioritized fairly highly.

 

4: I would like to see it implemented without it being a stretch goal, but if that's not feasible then sure. Personally I think it should come way before stuff like the players house and probably the 7th companion as well. I think it's that important for a successor to BG2 and IWD (torment not so much, but this game claims to follow all three). So if it needs to be a stretch goal, put it in as soon as possible.

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The size of a a dungeon shouldn't be measured in number of "levels". This isn't the 1980's.

 

Just make it big and long.

 

Undermountain in Hordes of the Underdark, Durlag's Tower in Baldur's Gate, and Dragon's Eye in Icewind Dale are all excellent examples.

 

Anything bigger than those (eg, the Stygian Abyss of Ultima Underworld) would probably be outside the scope of this game.

Edited by Infinitron

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So, on one hand people want a realistic, believable setting in terms of basic principles, but on the other are advocating for mega-dungeons within a Middle Age society, a nonsensical, illogical construction which would take tens of years just to complete, without any reason whatsoever for doing so.

 

As George Bush, I ask: remember the pyramids? Entire decades of work to complete? They had tiny undergrounds.

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I really really like this idea. 10 levels would be perfect, I think. (And you should battle Werdna and a bunch of Vampire Lords at the end. :p)

 

The size of a a dungeon shouldn't be measured in number of "levels". This isn't the 1980's.

 

1980s or bust!

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So, on one hand people want a realistic, believable setting in terms of basic principles, but on the other are advocating for mega-dungeons within a Middle Age society, a nonsensical, illogical construction which would take tens of years just to complete, without any reason whatsoever for doing so.

 

As George Bush, I ask: remember the pyramids? Entire decades of work to complete? They had tiny undergrounds.

 

A realistic setting in terms of basic principles? With soul magic? In a fantasy world? Elves, dwarfes, other races and monsters running about and Gods meddling, but a huge dungeon doesn't fit, because it's not...realistic? Realism? Really?

Edited by True_Spike

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I really really like this idea. 10 levels would be perfect, I think. (And you should battle Werdna and a bunch of Vampire Lords at the end. :p)

 

The size of a a dungeon shouldn't be measured in number of "levels". This isn't the 1980's.

 

1980s or bust!

 

Haha, I should have thought of you before posting that. ;)

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I can't say this topic hasn't come up in meetings. Why don't you guys turn this into a user poll and see if there is serious interest in a mega-dungeon. The things I would be curious about are...

 

1. How mega is your idea of a mega dungeon? 5 levels?10 levels? 20? More?

2. How important do you think story is in said mega dungeon?

3. Would you still support a mega dungeon if it diverted resources from the main plot/game? My guess is no, but I had to ask.

4. Is this something you would like to see as a high end stretch goal or set of stretch goals?

 

I'm thinking Lufia2.

 

The mega dungeon is 99 levels down.

 

In order to not upset the game balance, you're stripped of your levels and items and enter the dungeon at level 1.

 

Story isn't very important, IMO it's best such a dungeon offered different things than the rest of the game. Mainly combat and maybe some good puzzles. A diversion.

 

Each level is randomly created with random loot. Each level has an exit you can use to go back to your usual adventuring.

 

The end boss is insanely difficult and if you win you get a very good item which you can use in the outside world, and you gain additional insight about the game's plot.

 

All experience and items you got in the dungeon are stripped form you and you get back your old ones. You can only keep the end-boss item.

 

Wouldn't mind a stretch goal.

Edited by ghostdog
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