Update #5 - Souls, Technology, and Adventuring Companies

[Cantousent]

A bard without soul?... no Aretha Franklin or Marvin Gaye there.

Bad... just baaad! lol You can't have the Rhythm and Blues without no Soul. I like the soul based magic, but I will still miss that ol' black magic I used to do so well. Edited September 21, 2012 by Cantousent

[Sensuki]

The souls thing reminds me a little bit of Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader ...

[Cantousent]

Yep, same here, Sen. I actually think Lionheart was a great idea that the design team kind of butchered. I was a mod at Interplay during development and folks went gonzo over it before and after release.

[Metabot]

No, it comes from the Greek gods being ****. Starting a war and razing a city because a person in it called you the second fairest is not a particularly moral action.

 

The exact same thing can be said of any theistic religion. ie the christian god allowing the devil to torture job and kill everyone he loved on the whim of a bet is not very moral either

 

You missed the point of Job entirely.

[Perderabo]

 

 

You missed the point of Job entirely.

without any support it is just as easy for me to claim you missed the point in that greek mythology as for you to claim i missed the point in the christian mythology.

 

But this thread is not the place to have a religious conversation and i know most forums frown upon it in general so please feel free to pm me the point i missed if you really want to

[HungryHungryOuroboros]

Atheism seems silly when there are observably meddlesome Gods, though I suppose they could be the weird cult-like fanatics acting against observable reason in this world.

 

I personally would prefer to see characters who hate the Gods rather than ones who don't believe in them despite their obvious visible presence. Traya-like characters.

[Cantousent]

Actually, I'm always interested in Greek mythology and I am a Christian. On the other hand, there's a lot to debate in both examples, but neither one answers the question about atheism in a world with overt Gods. It's truly impossible to say what would happen if humanity were faced with beings who transcended normal physical laws, even if it were simply other humans.

[Monte Carlo]

Am not interested in the religious stuff but am interested in guns.

 

My soul will be .75 calibre.

[HungryHungryOuroboros]

I suppose all you need is one dickish God feeding a line to his own cult about the Gods being mortal beings who just happen to have a really cool spaceship or a more advanced knowledge of magic or something. Hell, they may very well be?

[Cantousent]

Ya know, Monte, you Brit Bastard, I'm going to nuke your mage hunting ass with a lightning bolt if I ever see you. I will do so religiously.

 

EDIT: What will you do if *every* class uses soul magic? hehe

Edited September 21, 2012 by Cantousent

[trulez]

The souls thing reminds me a little bit of Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader ...

My thoughts exactly.

 

And not just the Souls, but mixing early firearms with swords and shields.

Edited September 21, 2012 by trulez

[Gazoinks]

I'd see the equivalent of Atheism in this world not so much denying the existence of gods as denying worship. Basically, "These gods are mean, capricious beings. I refuse to acknowledge them or pay them any respect".

[Monte Carlo]

You never hear the round that kills you...

[Torgamous]

You never hear the round that kills you...

And a statue never hears anything.

I suppose all you need is one dickish God feeding a line to his own cult about the Gods being mortal beings who just happen to have a really cool spaceship or a more advanced knowledge of magic or something. Hell, they may very well be?

Whenever you receive a divine revelation, it's always wise to check ReligiFact before incorporating it into your doctrine.

Actually, I'm always interested in Greek mythology and I am a Christian. On the other hand, there's a lot to debate in both examples, but neither one answers the question about atheism in a world with overt Gods. It's truly impossible to say what would happen if humanity were faced with beings who transcended normal physical laws, even if it were simply other humans.

We'd probably get used to it. In many ways modern civilization outclasses the ancient gods, and most of us aren't being driven mad.

In the case of those beings being human, someone would probably get funding to find out how they did that.

[Perderabo]

I dont find it to strange of an idea. Take some sects of buddhism for example. They can be basically atheistic and still believe that "gods" exist. They just dont believe they are true "gods" but instead are just devas , supernatural beings , having the power to affect worldly events in much the same way as humans and animals have the power to do so. Just as humans can affect the world more than animals, devas can affect the world more than humans. They also believe there is no fundamental difference between humans and deva's, They are also stuck in sansara and die just like us. they are no closer to nirvana than humans and no wiser in the ultimate sense. also a human can be reincarnated as a deva and a deva can be reincarnated as a human. Infact for a deva to reach nirvana they have to be reincarnated as a human to do so

Edited September 21, 2012 by Perderabo

[Oner]

Eventually, yes, guns made traditional metal armors obsolete. However, there's about three centuries of history wherein the two coexisted (plate armor didn't really disappear from warfare until the early to mid 18th century). In fact, the kind of plate armor we normally think of (Gothic plate) was actually invented after early firearms (as stated multiple times in the firearms thread) and was specifically designed to shore up chainmail's weaknesses against new weapons like firearms.

 

So the idea of mages using plate armor to counter firearms is actually a perfectly valid response and one that has a precedent in history.

Hm, I see. We weren't told the details in history class. >.>

[Cantousent]

Actually, I'm always interested in Greek mythology and I am a Christian. On the other hand, there's a lot to debate in both examples, but neither one answers the question about atheism in a world with overt Gods. It's truly impossible to say what would happen if humanity were faced with beings who transcended normal physical laws, even if it were simply other humans.

We'd probably get used to it. In many ways modern civilization outclasses the ancient gods, and most of us aren't being driven mad.

In the case of those beings being human, someone would probably get funding to find out how they did that.

I don't think it follows. Humanity managed to internalize superiority between people either by gaining an understanding of the workings of the universe or by being displaced or conquered by other people. During all that time, even in ancient times, there were atheists who made more or less the same arguments that atheists make today. I'm not putting down those arguments. Some of them are quite convincing, just ask Dostoevsky. I'm just saying that it would be different if there were mutable laws that could never be explained except by divine power.

 

EDIT: Sadly, a bit lubricated right now, so I'll have to think about it tonight to see if that all makes sense tomorrow.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Cantousent

[Giantevilhead]

The way souls are described sounds kind of like bloodlines in Vampire: The Masquerade.

[Nivenus]

The way souls are described sounds kind of like bloodlines in Vampire: The Masquerade.

 

I thought the concept sounded vaguely familiar (I recently played V:TMB for the first time). The idea of a "broken soul" and the emphasis on death as part of the natural also recalls PS:T, as many others have said.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Nivenus

[zlarm]

Good update. I'm a big fan of fighting other adventuring parties. Always a challenge and always worth the reward (great loot!).

[Brishingr]

This update was good to know, I was suspecting some things about the souls part, but I am differently digging this idea. I am also glad the studio is going to be able to do what it wants to do with out another pushing them.

[Nakia]

"It's not my fault that evil god made me do it." So our souls will govern what we are capable of doing, of being. This game gets more interesting all the time. Wonder if they will have a god as much fun as Sheogorath? Now there was a "god" worth following.

[Giantevilhead]

The way that souls work does open up some interesting dilemmas about the nature of choice and free will.

 

How is free will defined in this world? Is it defined as someone being able to do whatever is within their capabilities? Is choice tied to free will? A person who is blind does not have the choice to see but we still consider them to have the same amount of free will as someone who is not blind. However, with souls, it's a possible constraint on what someone is capable of beyond their physical limitations. Does someone with a weak soul simply not have the ability to make certain decisions even if their body is perfectly capable of realizing that decision. If so, does someone with a stronger soul have more "free will" than someone with a weaker soul?

[Nakia]

Depends on what free will is. We are governed by our genes, our culture, our experiences. We are influenced by the people around us and we influence them. Since there will be different types of souls in the game it would seem that what ever type of soul we have would govern what we can do and be. Maybe when we do character creation we will choose our would and that will decide if the character is combat oriented, magic oriented, stealth oriented.

 

Seems to me the developers have picked an interesting but challenging system.

[Shaewaros]

The devs seem to want to keep all options available and at this point there is really no need to restrict their creativity. All Arcanum fans surely liked this update since the game vision seems imply that the game will have some similar themes - the conflict between technology and magic for instance. The fact that Sawyer stressed that different cultures have different perception on the nature of a soul is particularly interesting for me since it shows that Obisdian takes the metaphysical side of the concept of dualistic ontology really seriously and they'll probably include a lot of philosophical themes into the game. I'm really looking forward to this game.