Do you want firearms in Project Eternity?

[UndeadRufus]

Do we wont firearms? NO, we don't! We expect cRPG in classy high fantasy setting, not some SF/steampunk/new weird/jRPG junk. Project Eternity should be a successor to series like Baldur's Gate and NWN, not Arcanum 2.

 

"We?"

 

You certainly aren't speaking for me. I love firearms in a fantasy setting, providing they exist in a balanced, logical manner.

 

Presence of any kind of firearms or other advanced tech will force me withdraw my pledge. These things have no place in high fantasy.

 

There are extremes to which you might rightly apply such thinking. For instance, if one were to label something "high fantasy" but then unveil a combat system centered around laser cannons and orbital bombardments from capital ships, then you might be justified in raising an eyebrow. But we aren't talking about lasers and spaceships. We're talking about guns, probably primitive guns. Can you offer a single rational reason as to why they should not be included? In my view, a setting that features a time of technological crossover is far more interesting than traditional, by-the-numbers high fantasy.

 

On that note, from what basis are you assuming this game need adhere strictly to high fantasy tropes? Unrelenting devotion to the gospel of "These things have no place in high fantasy," is a mind-set that almost inevitably leads to stagnation.

 

Asserting a preference is one thing, but threatening to withdraw your pledge if the dev includes firearms is a bit of overkill, no? Give them a chance.

 

$0.02.

[Bungyo]

No, and its a deal breaker for me.

 

Well, I guess your deal, it is broken.

 

So... see ya.

 

EDIT - This comes off as jerky of me, but all the ultimatums and all or nothing thinking in many of the threads seems a little overboard.

 

How is it an ultimatum? I simply stated that its a deal breaker for me. I didn't say 'get rid of guns or else', nor was the intent to imply any such threat. I don't want guns in my fantasy setting, and if this turns out to be as I fear then this won't be a game for me. I don't harbor any illusions that they'll change anything for me and they're surely prepared for people to abandon their project as they learn certain details, and perhaps they'll attract more people to it as they learn more. But guns aren't for me in fantasy.

[Canova]

From the little I have seen this game isn't going to support the kinds of technology necessary for sophisticated weaponry. If magic can do the same thing easier and more cheaply then the tech will never evolve.

yeah, bunch of people often forget this. why would someone invent firearms in a fantasy world where you have magic, you have wizards that can use firebals or lightning bolts or something (if magic in that setting alows fors such spells ofc), maybe you can even enchant regular arows so they can do all sorts of crazy stuff. early, primitive firearms would be very expensive, slow and impractical and would not like offer any advantages over magic.

[Stun]

Well, "its a deal breaker" implies that it's a developer decision that will cause you not to buy the game. (what other "deal" could you be talking about?) That's an ultimatum if I ever heard one.

 

Me, I voted no on this poll. But it's certainly not something that factors into my decision to get the game. In the end, I'll just play the game and not use any guns. Problem solved.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Stun

[Undecaf]

why would someone invent firearms in a fantasy world where you have magic

 

...

 

early, primitive firearms would be very expensive, slow and impractical and would not like offer any advantages over magic.

 

But can everyone do magic that are in need of such power?

[BSoda]

I voted no...though I don't feel too strongly either way. If they implement firearms that will make the whole setting more steampunkish' which is fine in my book.

[Tale]

From the little I have seen this game isn't going to support the kinds of technology necessary for sophisticated weaponry. If magic can do the same thing easier and more cheaply then the tech will never evolve.

yeah, bunch of people often forget this. why would someone invent firearms in a fantasy world where you have magic, you have wizards that can use firebals or lightning bolts or something (if magic in that setting alows fors such spells ofc), maybe you can even enchant regular arows so they can do all sorts of crazy stuff. early, primitive firearms would be very expensive, slow and impractical and would not like offer any advantages over magic.

Because not everyone can use magic. Making guns the great equalizer.

 

I'm desperately hoping we get to see conflict between Wizards and the commonfolk this way. Wizards are going to be terrified of guns because guns mean commoners can kill them. And commoners won't need them as much generally speaking.

 

There's an entire social class that depends on being the only guys who can kill other guys with a wave of their hand. And they're going to have to deal with the fact that technology is catching up to them.

[Ink Blot]

Voted 'no' because I generally don't like firearms in fantasy settings unless it's a steampunk kind of thing. But after reading Tale's post, I can kind of agree with the reasoning there and can certainly think of some very interesting possibilities for it re factions, technology suppression by a ruling magocracy, illegal arms manufacture/trading, etc. Could really open up some nice plot lines.

[Tlantl]

 

 

But can everyone do magic that are in need of such power?

 

You'd figure that in a setting where you and I can take a class or profession where we can use magic, then just about anyone in the world could too.

 

Developing technology is a long arduous and costly endeavor and would not be taken on by the guy on the street any more than learning magic. If magic exists and guns don't it is highly unlikely that guns will evolve.

 

With that said I reiterate my position that I would have no problem with the things if the reason they existed and their place in the game made sense.

 

If dwarves use magic, they have no reason to make guns. If gnomes exist and use spells, then they too have no need to invent them. If a culture exists that has banned, outlawed, or otherwise done away with magic, then they would have reason to experiment with other means of mass destruction such as black powder and explosives, especially if they are in conflict with a society or culture that uses magic against them.

 

It all depends on the circumstances involved with the development of the technology and it's impact on the world. I certainly wouldn't expect to see modern era weapons side by side with stone aged equipment, although some individuals might prefer a crossbow to a gun in some situations.

[Cariannis]

Voted yes because I always liked the idea of simple firearms brining the common man and spell casters to an even footing.

 

On the D&D firearms thing this is what Tom Costa had to say...

 

"The information on early firearms in D&D varied from edition to edition of the game and among campaign settings and the level of detail that you ask for is generally just not there. Combine that with the fact a lot of players don't use firearms in their D&D games even if they exist in a setting, and there just hasn't been a lot of time put into rationalizing a comprehensive and consistent system."

 

And I've never used a gun in D&D...yea just because we have guns doesn't mean they'll be commonplace. The Romans had cement, which was completely forgotten for like fifteen hundred years before someone discovered it again. Who says the same couldn't be true for gunpowder in this world?

[Undecaf]

But can everyone do magic that are in need of such power?

 

You'd figure that in a setting where you and I can take a class or profession where we can use magic, then just about anyone in the world could too.

 

Developing technology is a long arduous and costly endeavor and would not be taken on by the guy on the street any more than learning magic. If magic exists and guns don't it is highly unlikely that guns will evolve.

 

You could probably make common tools and all other weapons a logical error by that argument - "if you have magic, why bother" - too.

 

Anyways, the KS pitchvideo states that magic is not rare, but it is not like everyone in the universe uses it either. And Sawyer posted somewhere (can't remember if it was here or elsewhere, at the moment) that guns exist for a certain purpose -- and knowing Obsidians knack for detail, I'm quite sure they'll be explained in a way that is logical to the setting (whether people agree with it or not).

Edited September 18, 2012 by Undecaf

[Canova]

people often complain about lack of overall scientific progres in most fantasy settings but presence of magic is often perfect explanation for that... not just for lack of firearms, for example why would there be need for advanced medicine and surgery in worlds where like your ordinary village priests can use healing spells and cure seriuos injuries, where you can drink a bottle of alchemical potion and be cured of most diseases etc

 

Because not everyone can use magic. Making guns the great equalizer.

 

I'm desperately hoping we get to see conflict between Wizards and the commonfolk this way. Wizards are going to be terrified of guns because guns mean commoners can kill them. And commoners won't need them as much generally speaking.

 

There's an entire social class that depends on being the only guys who can kill other guys with a wave of their hand. And they're going to have to deal with the fact that technology is catching up to them.

yeah but then we would have magic vs. technology type of story and thats like deffinitely not your typical fantasy. i was hoping for more of a classical medieval fantasy RPG with few interesting twists, kind of setting where magic is quite common and widely used.

[Progressive_Stupidity]

It worked for Arcanum.

[Carcosa]

yes, please.

 

quite simply, i have faith in these guys and their ability to craft an interesting, wildly fresh and invigorating setting and world. if that includes guns, i assume they know what they're doing and really look forward to seeing what they come up with.

 

in fact, all things considered, i'm glad to see them steering a little ways from the dogmatic, traditional view of what constitutes "high fantasy". i just hope to see them go full tilt and get crazy. i want to see elves that are truly alien, otherworldly, ethereal and strange, not just pointy-eared pretties. i want to see dwarves that aren't necessarily bearded and greedy and grubby and hungry for gold and jewels. in the immortal words of Leon Black, "Topsy turvy that ****! Turn that **** around!"

 

anyway, my two coppers, for what they're worth.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Carcosa

[Ashram]

This thread is OBE The devs stated that there will be firearms in an interview!

[SoshiGEE]

This should depend entirely on the setting like some other people have said. If they can work things like guns and tanks into a high fantasy setting, by all means be my guest, but if we're in a medieval-style high fantasy game and then suddenly someone pulls out a gun, it will look very forced and stupid.

Personally, I'd be fine with bows and arrows.

[Nonek]

Two thoughts on this, if they're common and are making a real change in warfare then armour, industry and society must change to acknowledge that.

 

If they're the rare tools of technologists and alchemists, then to the common man they're just another form of magic, and their users are to be avoided or burnt as witches.

 

I trust Obsidian to innovate in their introduction of them, I mean just look at Mr Cains Arcanum.

[ET3D]

Guns would make perfect sense in a fantasy setting and I have no idea why they're not a standard feature there. Why create an elaborate damage spell when you can use much smaller magic to apply a small kinetic force, some air pressure, a small explosion or a small fire (coupled with gunpowder) to move a pellet inside a tube? Especially in a world where people have differing levels of magic, I'm sure those with lesser levels would think of ways to compensate for that, and guns which are triggered magically look like a perfectly natural development to me.

[kirottu]

From the little I have seen this game isn't going to support the kinds of technology necessary for sophisticated weaponry. If magic can do the same thing easier and more cheaply then the tech will never evolve.

yeah, bunch of people often forget this. why would someone invent firearms in a fantasy world where you have magic, you have wizards that can use firebals or lightning bolts or something (if magic in that setting alows fors such spells ofc), maybe you can even enchant regular arows so they can do all sorts of crazy stuff. early, primitive firearms would be very expensive, slow and impractical and would not like offer any advantages over magic.

 

"Why would someone invent firearms in a fantasy world where you have magic?"

 

Because not everyone can use magic. Actually if you think about it, a world where someone can throw fireballs and others can't, would be a very fruitful place for scientific progress. Non-mages would want to level the playfield and seek other paths to power.

[Semper]

all the complainers sound as if there'll be thugs running around wielding submachine guns. first you whine about standard fantasy races although not knowing any details about their lore and connection to the setting. now you're all in for generic weapons without any creativity -.-

 

couldn't you just relax? there's nothing more retarded than claiming that firearms belong to a cyber- or steampunk setting. "guns" were invented in the 14th. and 15th. century and they are also present within d&d, pathfinder and other medieval inspired fantasy settings. as josh stated they're kinda special and will fulfill the role of powerful tools. probably they won't be freely available to everybody.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Semper

[Wintersong]

all the complainers sound as if there'll be thugs running around wielding submachine guns.

I can see it now: "Grand Theft Horse". Genius, Obsidian! Genius!

 

Wait a moment... do they have horses in PE??? Being a new IP I'd expect new kinds of animals instead of the overused ones!!!!

 

first you whine about standard fantasy races although not knowing any details about their lore and connection to the setting. now you're all in for generic weapons without any creativity -.-

 

couldn't you just relax? there's nothing more retarded than claiming that firearms belong to a cyber- or steampunk setting. "guns" were invented in the 14th. and 15th. century and they are also present within d&d, pathfinder and other medieval inspired fantasy settings. as josh stated they're kinda special and will fulfill the role of powerful tools. probably they won't be freely available to everybody.

[Any_ILL]

Yup. A world with powder weapon (not evolved enough to make other kind of weapons obsoletes of course) would bring fresh air to this fantasy world. So of course I'm for it ^^

[Nivenus]

Tim Cain's already confirmed firearms at this point, so it's sort of a moot point.

 

That said, I do have a preference for what kind of firearms we'll see. I'm hoping that the game aims for something akin to the Late Middle Ages or early Gunpowder Age, where firearms had begun to become prominent, but swords, armor, and polearms hadn't yet been rendered obsolete. That kind of mixed arms tactics could be pretty interesting in combat and has the added benefit of being a level of technology not typically explored by fantasy.

[Jon of the Wired]

I don't understand the connection that some posters are drawing between firearms and steampunk. There's almost three hundred years (~1500 -> ~1800) between the invention of the wheel lock and the invention of a practical steam engine. It's a period that encompasses the latter half of the European Renaissance and the Enlightenment. It's long and rich period of history and it's a period that hasn't been exploited much in previous fantasy RPGs.

[Tauron]

nope, never i want medieval setting

 

Btw firearms were introduced in medieval ages.

 

If implemented right, why not. It would fall into category of piercing weapons. We have magic and explosions and no mage thought to harness that power in one form or another to make projectile weapons. ( wands to not count ) C'mon.