Walsingham Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 This story reminded me of how an actual soldier, rather than someone who used to be a soldier, behaves. A few minutes later, their interpreter told them that two women in the compound were extremely distressed because their children were trapped behind a low wall about 25 yards away. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drowsy Emperor Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Very brave of him. И погибе Српски кнез Лазаре,И његова сва изгибе војска, Седамдесет и седам иљада;Све је свето и честито билоИ миломе Богу приступачно. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoonDing Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 "I'm not a warrior, I'm a soldier. There's a difference. Warriors attack and conquer, they prey on the weak. Soldiers defend and protect the innocent The ending of the words is ALMSIVI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgoth Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Great, now Wals is our official propagandist military correspondent? This all wouldn't be necessary if the coalition forces just pulled out of this dirthole already. More lucky kids getting to know their daddies. Rain makes everything better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Predictable, and not very well done. Need to throw in some tidbit where the Imperialst soldiers killed some people or something, rather than some weak hypothetical. Tsk. 1 Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obyknven Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 "I'm not a warrior, I'm a soldier. There's a difference. Warriors attack and conquer, they prey on the weak. Soldiers defend and protect the innocent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgoth Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Predictable, and not very well done. Need to throw in some tidbit where the Imperialst soldiers killed some people or something, rather than some weak hypothetical. Tsk. You're the one who is becoming predictable, my Canadian friend. Rain makes everything better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 It's amazing how quick a heartwarming story brings out the negative nellies. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blarghagh Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 "I'm not a warrior, I'm a soldier. There's a difference. Warriors attack and conquer, they prey on the weak. Soldiers defend and protect the innocent 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Ah don't mind Morgoth, he's always grumpy. You want to see negative just wait until Krezack shows up. But seriously, this guy is a hero. Big time. Maybe there is some hope for the humans after all. "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
213374U Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 So blind luck makes him a hero. If, instead, he'd gotten himself -and possibly one of those kids- killed, I guess the epithet would be far less flattering. I'm not sure there is an actual line that separates valor from stupidity, but it's fairly obvious that success is enough to sway most opinons one way or the other. And success does depend on luck. Funny how that works. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 If he had gotten killed running out to try and save kids, he would still be a hero. I think you missed the part where he was shielding the kids with his body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 If risking your own life to save someone elses does not make you a hero I'm not sure what would. It is the definition of a selfless act. Even the bible agrees: John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. How much more so than to risk his life for strangers or their children? Uh-oh I quoted the Bible on this forum. Methinks there will be flames! 2 "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 I'm with numberman on this. If he'd got himself shot he would potentially have put someone else into danger as they rescued him. Doesn't stop him being brave of course, but it's the 'running into a burning house' type of bravery. Great if it works, slightly less so if you end up getting yourself killed, put others at risk and remove the children from a generally safe position (behind a wall) via a dangerous run. Waiting for the insurgents to break off would almost certainly have been a far better- if less 'heroic' and 'inspiring'- way of doing things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drowsy Emperor Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 This sort of thing either happens or doesn't. There isn't exactly time to sip tea and deliberate on the cleverness of it. И погибе Српски кнез Лазаре,И његова сва изгибе војска, Седамдесет и седам иљада;Све је свето и честито билоИ миломе Богу приступачно. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oblarg Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Uh-oh I quoted the Bible on this forum. Methinks there will be flames! Flames? No, but I do wonder why you'd think that what the bible says would hold any significance for us... "The universe is a yawning chasm, filled with emptiness and the puerile meanderings of sentience..." - Ulyaoth "It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built." - Kreia "I thought this forum was for Speculation & Discussion, not Speculation & Calling People Trolls." - lord of flies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Uh-oh I quoted the Bible on this forum. Methinks there will be flames! Flames? No, but I do wonder why you'd think that what the bible says would hold any significance for us... It's a pretty significant book, so I don't know why a quote from it would not be relevant to the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted March 24, 2012 Author Share Posted March 24, 2012 Getting killed doesn't prevent you from getting a medal, ergo I'm kinda guessing it doesn't preclude you being heroic. As for morgoth's negativity it's so predictable it's almost soothing. Like watching a wave roll in. 1 "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgoth Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 What has that to do with negativity? You wanna have every soldier end up being a dead hero? What's wrong with you people? Rain makes everything better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
213374U Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 (edited) I think you missed the part where he was shielding the kids with his body.You mean that a soldier's body is harder cover than a concrete wall? Wow, those must be some seriously tough soldiers! Getting killed doesn't prevent you from getting a medal, ergo I'm kinda guessing it doesn't preclude you being heroic. If risking your own life to save someone elses does not make you a hero I'm not sure what would. It is the definition of a selfless act.Yep. Undoubtedly, the mother of the kid's grieving would have been quickly ended by his son's would-be savior posthumous condecoration. And it's only a tiny measure of luck that changed that scenario to the one reported by the Telegraph. But whatever, Zor already explained and apparently no one even read his post, so don't let me interrupt the chest-pounding. Edited March 24, 2012 by 213374U - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calax Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Two things personally 1) So, these kids were behind a wall in the first place right? Admittedly we dont' exactly know the architecture, but I highly doubt that the wall would be something porforated by ak47 bullets, and thus the soldiers actions, while good natured, were ultimately just flash, as you could kill the insurgents, and get the kids out normally, without exposing yourself to damage, or the kids to serious psychological trauma. 2) As to Viromurs quote, that's really semantics. Soldiers attack, kill, rape, plunder, and pillage just the same as warriors (sometimes worse). It'd be like saying that "I'm a Marine" somehow makes a person inherently better than "I'm a Soldier", or even "I'm in the United States Army" because Marines have magic fairy dust applied to them at the Boot Camps. Never mind the fact that they have to get their rear ends carted around by the USN. Victor of the 5 year fan fic competition! Kevin Butler will awesome your face off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfted1 Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 2) As to Viromurs quote, that's really semantics. Soldiers attack, kill, rape, plunder, and pillage just the same as warriors (sometimes worse). It'd be like saying that "I'm a Marine" somehow makes a person inherently better than "I'm a Soldier", or even "I'm in the United States Army" because Marines have magic fairy dust applied to them at the Boot Camps. Never mind the fact that they have to get their rear ends carted around by the USN. For the second time, its a quote from KOTOR. "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raithe Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Okay, taking a stand off point here : At present, does anyone have any actual details on the wall? Was it a crumbling, piece of mudbrick crap that gave hardly any shelter? Had it been hit by explosives before hand and have holes in it? We don't know the specifics beyond it being a "small wall" - although, since it's mentioned that it was in a mud brick compound, I don't exactly think the wall is as bulletproof as concrete... - Mention is made that it's machine-gun fire, not small-arms, not long-arms, but machine-gun.. so, likely a nice pounding, heavy calibre strike.. Was it actually in direct fire? As the combat was going on around it, that would mean bullets from both sides going overhead.. Also, battle is not static, so potentially fire might have been coming from other angles. How panicked were the kids? Were they actually keeping down, or were they looking like they were going to freak out and run into the middle of things in an effort to get away? Note, three children, aged 3, 7, and somewhere between the two..cowering there.. And the mothers pleading for help, and distressed over the fact that her kids were there.. It might not have been the safest thing to attempt, it might have resulted in the kids being killed, but it also did result in the kids being brought to safety and to their mothers. Does the attempt deserve contempt and outright cynicism? "Oh yes, he saved lives, but he did it in a stupid manner that could have gone wrong." "Cuius testiculos habeas, habeas cardia et cerebellum." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orogun01 Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Please don't argue with the contrarians, they seem to have conveniently enough forgotten that it was in the middle of combat. What did they want them to do? Build a makeshift tank and smash the insurgents. Those soldiers may have not have come up with the perfect plan, which in the middle of a firefight it's pretty damn hard to gather around and discuss. He took a chance, how big of a chance or whether or not the kids would have survived if left alone depends on specifics about the combat. I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"* *If you can't tell, it's you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 Well, a machine gun can be small arms, as that covers things up to a .50 cal gun (12.7mm). Not sure of how that round will do against concrete, heh, if you want an account of the effect of that on a human, Black Hawk Down has a Somali getting shot by three of them and he's torn to three pieces. And yes, like everything else in the news, it's worth being cynical about. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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