What in the name of skilfully poised ****?

[Rostere]

For all of you arguing about the reasons behing the war in Afghanistan (and by extension the war in Iraq (or should it be the other way around?)). Let's start with first things first and discuss those responsible for the war in the first place. Read a little about PNAC - a think tank whose beliefs dominated the Bush presidency. Ok, so let's line things up for clarity (using their own words):

[*]Their goal was "to promote American global leadership"

[*]This is to be achieved through "a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity" (The overemphasis on military solutions is made clearer if you read through the entire Wikipedia article)

[*]However, this military rearmament ensuring "full spectrum dominance", this "process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event

[Zoraptor]

They won't hand him over to the Afghans- that'd mean him getting the long drop, short rope treatment and there isn't a military anywhere that would let that be dished out by foreigners, if it can be avoided. Plus it would almost certainly damage morale, in a situation where the Afghans are well regarded it might not but there's clearly a large section of the US military personnel who do not regard Afghans well, understandably given the nature of the fighting there and the background. Given Haditha, the ability of the US military to deal with such events in a timely and reasonable manner is... questionable, to say the least, but when even a friendly country like Italy cannot get US personnel put on trial for something relatively minor like killing a bunch of people (accidentally) while hotdogging gondola cables in their A-10s there is no prospect of Afghanistan getting that sort of satisfaction and no real point even entertaining thoughts of what would happen if they did.

[Rostere]

They won't hand him over to the Afghans- that'd mean him getting the long drop, short rope treatment and there isn't a military anywhere that would let that be dished out by foreigners, if it can be avoided. Plus it would almost certainly damage morale, in a situation where the Afghans are well regarded it might not but there's clearly a large section of the US military personnel who do not regard Afghans well, understandably given the nature of the fighting there and the background. Given Haditha, the ability of the US military to deal with such events in a timely and reasonable manner is... questionable, to say the least, but when even a friendly country like Italy cannot get US personnel put on trial for something relatively minor like killing a bunch of people (accidentally) while hotdogging gondola cables in their A-10s there is no prospect of Afghanistan getting that sort of satisfaction and no real point even entertaining thoughts of what would happen if they did.

 

Yeah. Well, I only wrote that it would probably be a good thing for the American army if he was made responsible for his actions - that can be achieved in many ways. If we're talking probability, I don't think they would ever hand him over to the Afghans, but if they did, I don't think it would have a bad effect on the army at all. It's not as if it would impact their performance on the field. Compared to other atrocities commited by the US Army in recent times, this was quite obviously the act of a lone crazed madman and not some misstep on the tactical level. He happens to be a soldier, but the murders were entirely disjunct from any military operation. What would have happened if a US soldier stationed in Greece hade done the some thing? I bet even Gingrich, Santorum, Romney and their merry band of fools would be keen to make diplomatic amends as soon as possible.

 

I don't believe in the death penalty myself, and if I were in charge I would be just as reluctant to hand him over to Afghanistan as to Texas. But then, if I was in charge, I'd probably put more attention seeing to that these things never happen in the first place and put less time into the pointless task of "punishing" any cuckoo like this guy.

[Walsingham]

I have always had huge reservations about this notion that US personnel can't be tried locally. If they don't let him be tried locally, and punished in a style commensurate with Afghan custom (death penalty) then you can forget about whole swathes of population. And it's not like they're being ignorant savages. How often does the American public cry out for the death penalty? Or the British public, for that matter?

 

And this has got nothing whatsoever with George ****ing Bush, Big Oil, or the Tooth Fairy. It's not even about the Taliban. It's about Staff Sergeant McInhumanfuntwit murdering a bunch of innocent women and children. I find suggestions to the contrary either foolish or revolting.

[Orogun01]

I have always had huge reservations about this notion that US personnel can't be tried locally. If they don't let him be tried locally, and punished in a style commensurate with Afghan custom (death penalty) then you can forget about whole swathes of population. And it's not like they're being ignorant savages. How often does the American public cry out for the death penalty? Or the British public, for that matter?

 

And this has got nothing whatsoever with George ****ing Bush, Big Oil, or the Tooth Fairy. It's not even about the Taliban. It's about Staff Sergeant McInhumanfuntwit murdering a bunch of innocent women and children. I find suggestions to the contrary either foolish or revolting.

The have a good reason to cause outcry but a local trial (if it can be called such) won't do much good. It won't stop the natives from using it as an example to fan the fires of revolution, it wouldn't be a fair trial since the judged is an outsider and held in biased view and it would just send the message to the troops that we are giving our men to be tried by the enemy.

I do agree that he should be judged with the same severity as he would if he had killed american citizens.

[Hurlshort]

But the Afghan people aren't the enemy. That whole line of thinking causes huge problems in the first place. We are supposed to be there to help the Afghani people.

[Guard Dog]

But the Afghan people aren't the enemy. That whole line of thinking causes huge problems in the first place. We are supposed to be there to help the Afghani people.

 

I'm starting to wonder if that has turned out to be a fools errand after all. If left to their own devices I don't think Afghanistan would be a country so much as a loose collection of tribes. From what I've been reading they really don't have anything resembling a national identity.

[Walsingham]

The biggest problem I think we've had the whole way through is that we keep using bureaucrats to engage with and help people who have an instinctive - and I would say healthy - hatred of bureaucracy. Bureaucrats following SOPs dragged Sergeant Massmurder out. Charles Napier would have handed him straight over to the locals.

[Guard Dog]

Please read this: http://apnews.myway..../D9THF60O0.html

 

Exceprt:

WASHINGTON (AP) - An Afghan soldier shot to death a 22-year-old Marine at an outpost in southwestern Afghanistan last month in a previously undisclosed case of apparent Afghan treachery that marked at least the seventh killing of an American military member by his supposed ally in the past six weeks, Marine officials said.

Lance Cpl. Edward J. Dycus of Greenville, Miss., was shot in the back of the head on Feb. 1 while standing guard at an Afghan-U.S. base in the Marja district of Helmand province. The exact circumstances have not been disclosed, but the Dycus family has been notified that he was killed by an Afghan soldier. Marine officials discussed the matter on condition of anonymity because it is still under investigation.

When the Pentagon announced Dycus' death the day after the shooting, it said he died "while conducting combat operations" in Helmand. It made no mention of treachery, which has become a growing problem for U.S. and allied forces as they work closely with Afghan forces to wind down the war.

The Associated Press inquired about the Dycus case after Maj. Gen. John Toolan, the top Marine commander in Afghanistan at the time, said in an AP interview March 7 that the Afghan government has been embarrassed by recent cases of Afghan soldiers turning their guns on their supposed partners.

"I had one just a month ago where a lance corporal was killed, shot in the back of the head, and the Afghan minister of defense was here the next day" to discuss custody of the shooter, Toolan said, speaking from his Regional Command-Southwest headquarters at Camp Leatherneck.

After a negotiation aimed at ensuring the Afghan suspect is prosecuted, the Americans turned him over to Afghan government custody, another official said.

 

When can we expect our apology? Our president was quick enough the grovel to them. It kind of puts things into a little perspective. Unless some of you think shooting US Marines in the back is ok. I have no doubt whatsoever some of you do. We are wasting our time there. Nation building is a fools errand that will only leave them nice new facilities when the Taliban takes back over and kills everyone once we do leave. We should have pulled once they were deposed. Everyone who died since then died for nothing once the inevitable happens.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Guard Dog

[Gfted1]

I dont think nation building is a total fools errand, just highly unlikely to work. But if we get 1 Japan for every 2-3 Afghanistans then I think its worth it.

[Gorgon]

The Japanese had a legacy of democracy, going strong actually before the militants won everyone over. It was easy to return to after the ultra nationalists were so thoroughly defeated.

Also a competent beurocracy which had begun to embraced merit over croneyism and nepotism, in fact gotten farther along those lines than many allied countries.

 

Afghanistan is still based around tribal leaders and local allegiances. Much of their recent national identity comes from the Taliban and defeating the Russians. Maybe the only thing that can hold a country like that together is a larger than life nationalist, a tyrant. Or maybe that's defeatist, I don't know.

[Morgoth]

Please read this: http://apnews.myway..../D9THF60O0.html

 

Exceprt:

WASHINGTON (AP) - An Afghan soldier shot to death a 22-year-old Marine at an outpost in southwestern Afghanistan last month in a previously undisclosed case of apparent Afghan treachery that marked at least the seventh killing of an American military member by his supposed ally in the past six weeks, Marine officials said.

Lance Cpl. Edward J. Dycus of Greenville, Miss., was shot in the back of the head on Feb. 1 while standing guard at an Afghan-U.S. base in the Marja district of Helmand province. The exact circumstances have not been disclosed, but the Dycus family has been notified that he was killed by an Afghan soldier. Marine officials discussed the matter on condition of anonymity because it is still under investigation.

When the Pentagon announced Dycus' death the day after the shooting, it said he died "while conducting combat operations" in Helmand. It made no mention of treachery, which has become a growing problem for U.S. and allied forces as they work closely with Afghan forces to wind down the war.

The Associated Press inquired about the Dycus case after Maj. Gen. John Toolan, the top Marine commander in Afghanistan at the time, said in an AP interview March 7 that the Afghan government has been embarrassed by recent cases of Afghan soldiers turning their guns on their supposed partners.

"I had one just a month ago where a lance corporal was killed, shot in the back of the head, and the Afghan minister of defense was here the next day" to discuss custody of the shooter, Toolan said, speaking from his Regional Command-Southwest headquarters at Camp Leatherneck.

After a negotiation aimed at ensuring the Afghan suspect is prosecuted, the Americans turned him over to Afghan government custody, another official said.

 

When can we expect our apology? Our president was quick enough the grovel to them. It kind of puts things into a little perspective. Unless some of you think shooting US Marines in the back is ok. I have no doubt whatsoever some of you do. We are wasting our time there. Nation building is a fools errand that will only leave them nice new facilities when the Taliban takes back over and kills everyone once we do leave. We should have pulled once they were deposed. Everyone who died since then died for nothing once the inevitable happens.

 

You wanna have an apology from the Afghans who are being invaded by an foreign force?

 

Wow.

[Walsingham]

Please read this: http://apnews.myway..../D9THF60O0.html

 

Exceprt:

WASHINGTON (AP) - An Afghan soldier shot to death a 22-year-old Marine at an outpost in southwestern Afghanistan last month in a previously undisclosed case of apparent Afghan treachery that marked at least the seventh killing of an American military member by his supposed ally in the past six weeks, Marine officials said.

Lance Cpl. Edward J. Dycus of Greenville, Miss., was shot in the back of the head on Feb. 1 while standing guard at an Afghan-U.S. base in the Marja district of Helmand province. The exact circumstances have not been disclosed, but the Dycus family has been notified that he was killed by an Afghan soldier. Marine officials discussed the matter on condition of anonymity because it is still under investigation.

When the Pentagon announced Dycus' death the day after the shooting, it said he died "while conducting combat operations" in Helmand. It made no mention of treachery, which has become a growing problem for U.S. and allied forces as they work closely with Afghan forces to wind down the war.

The Associated Press inquired about the Dycus case after Maj. Gen. John Toolan, the top Marine commander in Afghanistan at the time, said in an AP interview March 7 that the Afghan government has been embarrassed by recent cases of Afghan soldiers turning their guns on their supposed partners.

"I had one just a month ago where a lance corporal was killed, shot in the back of the head, and the Afghan minister of defense was here the next day" to discuss custody of the shooter, Toolan said, speaking from his Regional Command-Southwest headquarters at Camp Leatherneck.

After a negotiation aimed at ensuring the Afghan suspect is prosecuted, the Americans turned him over to Afghan government custody, another official said.

 

When can we expect our apology? Our president was quick enough the grovel to them. It kind of puts things into a little perspective. Unless some of you think shooting US Marines in the back is ok. I have no doubt whatsoever some of you do. We are wasting our time there. Nation building is a fools errand that will only leave them nice new facilities when the Taliban takes back over and kills everyone once we do leave. We should have pulled once they were deposed. Everyone who died since then died for nothing once the inevitable happens.

 

I don't think it's exactly treachery in the classic sense, GD. The Talibs have been making a huge effort for years to get their people into uniform precisely so they can pull stunts like that described. They have a much better grasp of how to **** us up than we do of how to nail them. Trust between us and the Afghan troops is vital; and shooting us in the back undermines that.

 

The thing you may want to wonder at is how few incidents appear to be happening, given how hard the opposition are trying.

 

However, as in every other part of this bloody war our own civilian press play directly into the hands of the Talibs by pushing exactly the line they were aiming at. Maybe there's nothing to be done about that. But it hardly fills me with confidence in the long-term feasibility of democracy if we actively conspire against ourselves!

[Malcador]

You wanna have an apology from the Afghans who are being invaded by an foreign force?

 

Wow.

 

Why not, Karzai's government and the US aren't hostile to one another. The US should definitely cut Karzai's throat before leaving, when they do.

[Drowsy Emperor]

You wanna have an apology from the Afghans who are being invaded by an foreign force?

 

Wow.

 

Why not, Karzai's government and the US aren't hostile to one another. The US should definitely cut Karzai's throat before leaving, when they do.

 

How can they be hostile to their own puppet government?

[Walsingham]

I'm not sure calling Karzai a puppet isn't underestimating him and his web of supporters. Afghan internal politics is so complicated that people on the ground don't fully get it. I think a little humility on our part would be more dignified.

[Orogun01]

I'm not sure calling Karzai a puppet isn't underestimating him and his web of supporters. Afghan internal politics is so complicated that people on the ground don't fully get it. I think a little humility on our part would be more dignified.

You realize that you are asking pears from the orange tree.

[Calax]

Karzai might have been a puppet in the beginning, but he's managed to drag up a huge pile of support and slip his leash (so to speak)

 

He's actively stated that he would back Pakistan if America went against them, is quite actively corrupt in maintaining power, his brother is the most notorious opium farmer in the area, and he's basically only paying lip service to requests from the US government that put him in power.

 

What I said about the dude going nuts and killing 17 civvies was that the soldier was stated to be there to help rebuild the nation, and train it's own police force (we all clear on this?). Well, the issue pops up when a few weeks ago, somebody accidentally started burning Qu'rans because it's how they deal with unwanted trash there, when news of this reached the media, there were riots and killings of American nationals in a variety of Islamic countries, including Afganistan.

 

So basically the US army expected the guy, who was already suffereing PTSD I bet, to smile and defend the very same people who were, a week before, screaming "Death to America" and flinging trash.

 

It'd be like ordering volo to fend off trolls from a person who despises bioware, or Gromnir to fend off Grammer Nazi's from a 15 year old girls twitter account.

[Morgoth]

You wanna have an apology from the Afghans who are being invaded by an foreign force?

 

Wow.

 

Why not, Karzai's government and the US aren't hostile to one another. The US should definitely cut Karzai's throat before leaving, when they do.

 

Government? Hahaha....

 

This "government" does not control the Taliban, son. Afghanistan is a tribal society, nobody controls anything there.

[Malcador]

Aw, cute, he's trying to be hard again. Anyway, in theory Karzai's responsible for the actions of an Afghan soldier, and it's believable that the soldier wasn't a Taliban infiltrator.

[Walsingham]

Look, I approve in principle of trying to defend the guy. But just stop and think about what he did. Thousands (regrettably) of troops have PTSD. They get my respect and support.

 

But when you start murdering women and kids, at night, when they're screaming with terror... You abandon understanding, you reject humanity. You're not on my side any more. You have crossed the **** over.

[Calax]

Every man has a breaking point... and when you've done three previous tours, you're probably teetering on the edge.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/19/us/afghanistan-shooting-soldier/index.html?hpt=hp_c3

[Walsingham]

1. But not every man murders little kids when he crosses that line.

 

2. It still doesn't obviate my reaction as above. The entire world of a frontline soldier is shot through with pressures to make you run, disobey, and kill without reason. But soldiers don't. It's not just this arsehole went wrong. But he went wrong in a way that he probably knew was wrong. Hell, maybe it made him more extreme knowing that. But explanation and excuse are not the same thing.