Malcador Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Well, we're not there yet. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgoth Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Well, we're not there yet. I think I saw that movie too. Rain makes everything better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nepenthe Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Are AAA games too long? Heavy Rain was long? Really? I mean, I had food poisoning when a played LA Noire, so I was up for two days straight and spent a lot of time throwing up, so I don't really have a time stamp for that, but... Heavy Rain? Well, whoever these guys are, their studio tagline should be "by idiots, for idiots". You're a cheery wee bugger, Nep. Have I ever said that? Reapercussions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Caliban Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Are AAA games too long? Heavy Rain was long? Really? I mean, I had food poisoning when a played LA Noire, so I was up for two days straight and spent a lot of time throwing up, so I don't really have a time stamp for that, but... Heavy Rain? Well, whoever these guys are, their studio tagline should be "by idiots, for idiots". "Alexis Kennedy, chief narrative officer at Fail Better games..." "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosbjerg Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Yeah I couldn't help but laugh at that too.. Fortune favors the bald. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tale Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 They stole my idea for a company name. Though, it was actually Fail Upwards, for the abbreviation pun. "Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowtrain Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 What is it with this exodus of top staff from AAA studios into these non-games nowadays? Based on the horror stories we hear from devs about their miserable experiences at major studios, it seems to make perfect sense. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgoth Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) What is it with this exodus of top staff from AAA studios into these non-games nowadays? Based on the horror stories we hear from devs about their miserable experiences at major studios, it seems to make perfect sense. This indie game and browser game nonsense isn't going to make them much money on the long run. Even soccer mums and non-gamers at some point in their lives will realize that they wanna play something with more depth, so they'll just return/discover to the big screen gaming. If developers are unhappy with their working conditions at AAA studios, they better get their act together and do something about it. Edited July 19, 2011 by Morgoth Rain makes everything better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowtrain Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 What is it with this exodus of top staff from AAA studios into these non-games nowadays? Based on the horror stories we hear from devs about their miserable experiences at major studios, it seems to make perfect sense. This indie game and browser game nonsense isn't going to make them much money on the long run. That's probably true, but it may be a situation where less money in an independent environment is better for the moment that more money in a big AAA project. Some of these developers we hear about worked in what appear to be pretty miserable* conditions for years while trying to complete a project. Those are years of your life you'll never get back. Maybe for some the money isn't worth it. *when I say miserable I'm not comparing it to working in a coal mine for 50 years or starving in a refugee camp. There are a lot of people in the world who suffer a lot more genuine misery than game developers. I'm just talking miserable in a relative sense. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C2B Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) Are AAA games too long? As a question in general.... Depends on the game really. Specifically regarding "bigger" rpgs I often feel that you could cut a lot of stuff from them. Like that one boring dungeon crawl or those 20 pointless fetch quests (that don't even have a interesting backstory). RPGs in general are horrible at pacing. But thats me, of course. Edited July 19, 2011 by C2B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgoth Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 RPGs in general are horrible at pacing. But thats me, of course. That's why they'll never reach sale numbers as say, their FPS counterparts. That's why Bioware is also so succesful with the Mass Effect series because you got the depth and narrative from an RPG, but the pacing and adrenaline of a FPS. It's a perfect mix of emotions. Rain makes everything better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigranes Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 *shrug* Ironic thing about DS3 is that it actually went ahead and did what we are always thinking about - cutting out the fluff and filler to the max. In any other RPG, every single 'filler area' (i.e. fight through enemies to get from X to Y) would have been twice as long. Now, DS3 isn't a great proof of concept because it's so watered down in RPG elements and it's too short even accounting for this, but it does confirm my suspicion that if we really cut out all the 'fat' there would be just as many complaints as praises, about how their game is not 'epic' enough. At least, enough to make it a gamble for the developer. Let's Play: Icewind Dale Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Icewind Dale II Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Divinity II (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG1 (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG2 (In Progress) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowtrain Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 rpgs tend to leave pacing more up to the player. You can always rush through if you want. Or take your time and explore every nook and cranny. It's why they are generally more more interesting that shooters. shooters by and large tend to be stunningly dull. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmp10 Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 *shrug* Ironic thing about DS3 is that it actually went ahead and did what we are always thinking about - cutting out the fluff and filler to the max. Yes that could have made a DS3 a more focused experience at a expense of freedom and exploration. It's just a shame Obsidian took a step back by wrecking the pacing with it's dialogue and storytelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgoth Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 DSIII was imho a failure not because of the pacing but because it had no depth and it was just plain dull. Rain makes everything better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sannom Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 As a question in general.... Depends on the game really. Specifically regarding "bigger" rpgs I often feel that you could cut a lot of stuff from them. Like that one boring dungeon crawl or those 20 pointless fetch quests (that don't even have a interesting backstory). RPGs in general are horrible at pacing. But thats me, of course. BG2 is probably the only one that I feel didn't have problems in its pacing. Great and long side-quests that goes off the main story path, specific dungeons and areas for those, etc. *shrug* Ironic thing about DS3 is that it actually went ahead and did what we are always thinking about - cutting out the fluff and filler to the max. In any other RPG, every single 'filler area' (i.e. fight through enemies to get from X to Y) would have been twice as long. Yeah, DS3 really has only one of those 'filler areas', the swamp, and that's over pretty quickly. I wouldn't have minded more Gunderic Manor and Tomb of Heroes though, big dungeons that are actually 'optional'. Heck, I think some RPG should go back to BG2's model, linear story but a huge chapter filled with optional quests... that you kinda have to do anyways if you want to have a good shot at survival. Not just 'four main hubs that you have to complete in any order you want'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigranes Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I'm obviously using DS3 as an example for the discussion. But sometimes, people just need to yell THE GAME SUCKS / THE GAME RULEZ. It was a constant source of surprise for me to find those en-route areas, a passtime of ARPGs, over so quickly. I thought about how long I bloody spent and how many mobs I put down in, say, the jungle areas of Diablo 2 (some of which had no quests whatsoever, and simply randomly generated minibosses and a thousand urns with crap loot), and found that I much preferred it this way. After a while, though, I could see how other people could view it as a disappointment - you certainly do not ever get the feeling of "bloody hell, finally I'm here and I've reached the golden chest with the loot". Partly because DS3 doesn't have a lot of unique loot and it has no perishables economy, but what I'm getting at is that DS3 shows cutting out 'filler' in RPGs is actually a risky design decision, unless you have enough time to just make your entire game chock full of goodness. BG2's model was great - it's funny how such a little thing (i.e. "Need X from each of 4 places" to "Go to up to 4 places, earn enough money") changes the whole dynamic. Let's Play: Icewind Dale Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Icewind Dale II Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Divinity II (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG1 (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG2 (In Progress) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmp10 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I'm obviously using DS3 as an example for the discussion. But sometimes, people just need to yell THE GAME SUCKS / THE GAME RULEZ. The point isn't to yell what the game is but to point out that there are various opinions on the way DS3 handles pacing. That makes it a rather poor example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowtrain Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Pacing is really only an issue in a linear game that keeps the player on rails the whole time. Half-life for example. not important at all in rpgs and strat games. When I play a game I prefer to set my own pace anyway. Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrath of Dagon Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 , but what I'm getting at is that DS3 shows cutting out 'filler' in RPGs is actually a risky design decision, unless you have enough time to just make your entire game chock full of goodness. The problem with the modern gamer is they're so willing to settle for less. "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigranes Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 That would be true if older games had no filler and great pacing. I love older games, but they don't. In many cases they have just as much filler. Let's Play: Icewind Dale Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Icewind Dale II Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Divinity II (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG1 (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG2 (In Progress) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 The problem with 'non modern gamers' is they have rose coloured glasses when thinking of older games. Stuff like the GB games - as fun as they were at the time - would likely be laugfhed at by those very same people if released nowadays. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Stuff like the GB games - as fun as they were at the time - would likely be laugfhed at by those very same people if released nowadays. The nervous, almost hysterical laughter of people not knowing how to set Irq and DMA channels in the audio setup Maybe older games just left a stronger impression because you had to use your imagination to make up for the shortcomings in presentation? Never underestimate the power of imagination. “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nepenthe Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 "Alexis Kennedy, chief narrative officer at Fail Better games..." :D Missed that, indeed. *shrug* Ironic thing about DS3 is that it actually went ahead and did what we are always thinking about - cutting out the fluff and filler to the max. In any other RPG, every single 'filler area' (i.e. fight through enemies to get from X to Y) would have been twice as long. Now, DS3 isn't a great proof of concept because it's so watered down in RPG elements and it's too short even accounting for this, but it does confirm my suspicion that if we really cut out all the 'fat' there would be just as many complaints as praises, about how their game is not 'epic' enough. At least, enough to make it a gamble for the developer. Apparently "not epic enough" is the new "poor writing", the last-ditch complaint when you can't think of anything else. BG2's model was great - it's funny how such a little thing (i.e. "Need X from each of 4 places" to "Go to up to 4 places, earn enough money") changes the whole dynamic. Yet when they recycled it in DA2, I didn't hear anybody like it. I doubt nostalgia is connected (at least directly) to how much imagination you need to fill in the blanks, I think those initial gaming experiences will be magical to each of us. For me, those games are Pool of Radiance, Curse of the Azure Bonds, Secret of the Silver Blades and Gargoyle's Quest. For some of us here, it's going to be BG2, maybe Torment. For some kids down the line, it's going to be something else. But for most, everything new will either be a rehash of the old, or just not as good. You're a cheery wee bugger, Nep. Have I ever said that? Reapercussions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 For me, those games are Pool of Radiance, Curse of the Azure Bonds, Secret of the Silver Blades and Gargoyle's Quest. Ah yes, those modern, mass produced games that all the new kids fancied. They had nothing on the old classics like Temple of Apshai or Lords of Midnight “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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