Mass Effect 3

[Niten_Ryu]

No, because a game broken into 2 hour increments where you can find an ACTUAL AND REAL STOPPING POINT rather than stopping in the middle of the story and forgetting where you are needing to go

 

Ain't that kind of problem little outdated. Maybe it could have happen in Ultima 7, but these days you have auto journal entries with full details where you need to go and what to do, big signs above questgivers heads, non-interactive NPCs if they don't have quest or have something meaningful to say ect ect...

 

Early days of CRPG you did need pen and paper for notes and maps

[Nepenthe]

I like having regular easy start/stop points, I can never stop playing in "the middle", so the ME2 structure is very good for my sleep+work schedule.

[Volourn]

A game shouldn't be written like it's a tv show with commericals and weekly episodes. That's silly talk. They should justw rite the story so it flows naturally. If someone needs to take a break but 'can't help themselves and keep playing' that's a good thiong as far as the writing goes and the onus is on the player to stop when they need to for whatever reason.

[Slowtrain]

Means you don't play for five to 30 minutes just trying to figure out what the heck you were doing before you quite last night.

 

 

hmm. my memory isn't all that great, but even still this would only be a problem if I was away from a game for a month or so.

 

Even I can remember what I was doing just last night. For the most part.

[Calax]

A game shouldn't be written like it's a tv show with commericals and weekly episodes. That's silly talk. They should justw rite the story so it flows naturally. If someone needs to take a break but 'can't help themselves and keep playing' that's a good thiong as far as the writing goes and the onus is on the player to stop when they need to for whatever reason.

The onus is also on the developer to make the game accessible at any point that somebody should decide that they need a break. As in they're able to pick it back up, and pull something up that gives a quick recap of wtf is going on. Having lulls in the story is a good thing, it provides the player a moment to breathe.

 

The issue here is that that ME2's story/gameplay design left it so that the main story was very minimal in comparison to the various sidequests. You had 5 "story" missions (intro, previously stolen colony, Colony being stolen, derilect, and finale) but 8 side missions that were each as big as a story mission. This may just be me but I'd think that the story should take up more time and gameplay than the "gathering your friends" segment of the game.

[Volourn]

"The onus is also on the developer to make the game accessible at any point that somebody should decide that they need a break"

 

No. But, it's nice to see someone admit they prefer things dumbed down just to be appeased.

[Deraldin]

I like having regular easy start/stop points, I can never stop playing in "the middle", so the ME2 structure is very good for my sleep+work schedule.

Exact opposite for me. Having regular start stop points means I get suckered into the Civilization mindset with "just one more mission" or whatever. If the game doesn't have those points, it's easier to just quit wherever.

Edited April 30, 2011 by Deraldin

[Calax]

"The onus is also on the developer to make the game accessible at any point that somebody should decide that they need a break"

 

No. But, it's nice to see someone admit they prefer things dumbed down just to be appeased.

Dumbed down? No. Unless you think that I somehow managed to say that I wanted the game to have a story so formulaic that I could call the entire thing all the way along the line.

 

I want a tale that SHOULD I decide to drop it for the night, there is a natural place for me to do it. And similarly I want a story that should I (for whatever reason) put it down for a while, when I pick it back up I can easily find out where I was and what I should be doing.

[greylord]

"The onus is also on the developer to make the game accessible at any point that somebody should decide that they need a break"

 

No. But, it's nice to see someone admit they prefer things dumbed down just to be appeased.

Dumbed down? No. Unless you think that I somehow managed to say that I wanted the game to have a story so formulaic that I could call the entire thing all the way along the line.

 

I want a tale that SHOULD I decide to drop it for the night, there is a natural place for me to do it. And similarly I want a story that should I (for whatever reason) put it down for a while, when I pick it back up I can easily find out where I was and what I should be doing.

 

Exactly. While ME2 went to the extremes of this (but not quite as extreme as DA2), there are other games that have done it just as nicely without that exact method. Many games have natural stop and save points while the story continues. Theirs was fashioned more after a FPS type idea of you going on missions/quest and completing them. X-men Legends and the Marvel Ultimate alliance series had a good way of doing this, though it would have been nice to be able to save any time, they had natural breaks in the middle of levels even, with obvious indications of where you had been (that line of destruction kind of points out where you've already wandered down, you should go down one of the other hallways).

 

Some Japanese RPG's have been accused of ONLY being an interactive story...and yet some of those are also well done in natural stopping points (granted there are some which are absolutely terrible as well).

 

Just because something has good consistency with how it's integrated in gameplay, interface, and continuity does not mean it's story suffers.

[Orogun01]

Exactly. While ME2 went to the extremes of this (but not quite as extreme as DA2), there are other games that have done it just as nicely without that exact method. Many games have natural stop and save points while the story continues. Theirs was fashioned more after a FPS type idea of you going on missions/quest and completing them. X-men Legends and the Marvel Ultimate alliance series had a good way of doing this, though it would have been nice to be able to save any time, they had natural breaks in the middle of levels even, with obvious indications of where you had been (that line of destruction kind of points out where you've already wandered down, you should go down one of the other hallways).

 

Some Japanese RPG's have been accused of ONLY being an interactive story...and yet some of those are also well done in natural stopping points (granted there are some which are absolutely terrible as well).

 

Just because something has good consistency with how it's integrated in gameplay, interface, and continuity does not mean it's story suffers.

You know if time management is one of your problems then I suggest that you stay away from JRPGs. Those things are lonnnnnnnnnggggg.

 

But ME2 had no such good consistency with their continuity, the reason it was so easy to leave the story and come back to it was because it was compartmentalized. Which eventually made evident the separation in between the areas and the missions. Since exploration was removed, there really is no feeling of a united world anymore. We just go from mission to mission.

[Calax]

What I was getting at (and greylord too I believe) was that RPG's in generally should always have a pacing that allows for some periods where the player isn't on his toes trying to rescue the princess from imminent danger. ME did take the entire thing a bit to far, but it still shows that there is that need for logical points in the tale that we can feel like we can set everything down for a moment to go live life.

 

Otherwise you end up in the Total War/Civilization trap of "Just... one... more... turn...!" because you just know that there is something BIG around the corner, and you just can't get out of the game. From an artistic standpoint this is fantastic and somewhat from a commercial standpoint, but the ability for a game to be accessible in smaller chunks is a very good thing to provide to people (it's one of the reasons that WoW has become so damn popular).

[Ice9]

Do people have a problem stopping on area transitions, or something like that? I've never had difficulty turning in a bunch of side quests or loading up a new map and saying, "Well that is enough for tonight."

[Nepenthe]

I like having regular easy start/stop points, I can never stop playing in "the middle", so the ME2 structure is very good for my sleep+work schedule.

Exact opposite for me. Having regular start stop points means I get suckered into the Civilization mindset with "just one more mission" or whatever. If the game doesn't have those points, it's easier to just quit wherever.

Sure, I get that too, but when the missions are 45min-1h, it's less of a problem. I like to finish my quests/missions in a go, which in the case of the Circle in DAO cost me one night's sleep in entirety.

 

For the record, I'm still holding my judgment of ME2's story until I see how ME3 ties into it. The bridge part in most trilogies is very unsatisfying by itself, and will generally be made or utterly destroyed based on the final chapter (The Matrix trilogy is a good example of this, where things were still salvageable after the second episode, but utterly wrecked by the third one - the book examples are too numerous to mention). As it is, the main story in ME2 appears to be just a framework for allowing multiple ME3 seeds to be sown.

[Calax]

Do people have a problem stopping on area transitions, or something like that? I've never had difficulty turning in a bunch of side quests or loading up a new map and saying, "Well that is enough for tonight."

Some do when the story is dragging you along with a sense of urgency that you must complete your Quest.

[Orogun01]

ITT: Gamers blame their addiction on game developers. "They make games too well" they say

[Niten_Ryu]

Heh... I can stop the game in the middle of the fight if needed. Or whenever I last hit the quicksave button (generally once per minute or something like that). Then of course quicksave get corrupted, game has no multiple quicksave slots, autosave was 4 hours ago and my last regular save was 1 hour ago... and then I'll go...

I loathe repeating anything right after I already did it few minutes / hours ago in games.

[Hassat Hunter]

A game shouldn't be written like it's a tv show with commericals and weekly episodes. That's silly talk. They should justw rite the story so it flows naturally. If someone needs to take a break but 'can't help themselves and keep playing' that's a good thiong as far as the writing goes and the onus is on the player to stop when they need to for whatever reason.

I agree with somethingg Volourn said... what has the world come through .

 

But yes, I also don't see why the story is SO much an issue that it has to be chopped down in 4 easy-to-bite snacksize packs, and can be utterly forgotten the rest of the game. Because tell me honest, in ME2 you never get any sense of urgency for doing the Suicide Mission. Well, unless you knew the mechanics of people dying after the capture of course...

[greylord]

A game shouldn't be written like it's a tv show with commericals and weekly episodes. That's silly talk. They should justw rite the story so it flows naturally. If someone needs to take a break but 'can't help themselves and keep playing' that's a good thiong as far as the writing goes and the onus is on the player to stop when they need to for whatever reason.

I agree with somethingg Volourn said... what has the world come through .

 

But yes, I also don't see why the story is SO much an issue that it has to be chopped down in 4 easy-to-bite snacksize packs, and can be utterly forgotten the rest of the game. Because tell me honest, in ME2 you never get any sense of urgency for doing the Suicide Mission. Well, unless you knew the mechanics of people dying after the capture of course...

 

Which is par for course in ME1. There never is really any urgency to rush to stop Saren either to tell the truth.

 

And then the Enemy stays at Ostagar for HOW LONG during DA:O?

 

Irenicus is simply standing around while you go wandering around the world in BG2. Only the dream scenarios really give any urgency to anything...and in the end they don't really matter.

 

In KoToR I don't really feel like the Galaxy is falling even as I wander.

 

I think the entire excuse for this urgency in ME2 is a rather poor excuse by some, as Bio hasn't really exhibited that much urgency in any of their games.

 

Some of them even worse, and without even the slightest repercussions if you delay. At least in ME2...after your crew is captured, there CAN be consequences if you don't at least do something.

 

Overall, I think the companion missions are somewhat related to the main quest. In ME1, you can wander the game (of course the buildings look remarkably all alike, but it is a wide open space) for a longer time doing far more missions (ME1 was more sandbox in that way I suppose, liked ME2 better) on unrelated items to the Main mission to ME2.

 

Unless, once again you are referring to JRPGs. I HAVE had a FEW (and just a few) where there really is urgency to the game or at least they truly make you feel that if you don't hurry, everything dies or is destroyed.

[Hassat Hunter]

It depends.

 

I have a fear ME3 does nothing with the ME2 recruted people (after all, all can be killed. Would be a looooot of work to add them all in if potentially not met, and a new crew for those who have killed them off etc.), and if such in a storyline of way is "wasted"... as less than 10% of the game is used to push that forth.

Edited May 2, 2011 by Hassat Hunter

[Niten_Ryu]

Lack of urgency is almost hardcoded gameplay design choice because players in general absolutely hate timed missions. Original Fallout (and this was back when games still could use punishing mechanism to disencourage players) got a lot of negative feedback from how they designed waterchip quest. FPS Stalker used timers on some of the optional missions. But for offical missions they used only brief, encounter based timers if any at all (same way the Mass Effect used in some of the optional missions like in defusing missile).

 

I have to admit that I'm not fan of strict time limits, because usually it means that game ends if you fail it. But then again, I'd definately would prefer to see 'em, if you could fail (mission, objective, NPC killed) and still continue the game... but only to live with (negative) consequences of your failure. We'll see if any of the dead NPCs have even the slightest impact on ME3 (I think on my first run I lost at least yeoman Kelly and those 2 red shirts from engineering bay).

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

I can smell it from here, ME3 will have you leave Earth and then going off to find reinforcements, despite the fact that once the Reapers have access to one mass relay they have access to everything and can just kill everyone and everything by their ridiculous numbers.

 

Plot holes ahoy, Bioware'll just keep on ruining what was once a cool concept (Mecha-Cthulhu FTW). They're being nerfed constantly.

Edited May 2, 2011 by WILL THE ALMIGHTY

[Calax]

It depends.

 

I have a fear ME3 does nothing with the ME2 recruted people (after all, all can be killed. Would be a looooot of work to add them all in if potentially not met, and a new crew for those who have killed them off etc.), and if such in a storyline of way is "wasted"... as less than 10% of the game is used to push that forth.

They've confirmed in GI that Liara, Garrus, and either Ashley (who got a visual update) or Kaiden will return. In the demo they had they saw/heard Mordin, Wrex, Legion and Anderson.

[mr insomniac]

Because tell me honest, in ME2 you never get any sense of urgency for doing the Suicide Mission. Well, unless you knew the mechanics of people dying after the capture of course...

 

They actually did a half-decent job of pacing for awhile in ME2, even if the way they did it could have been better. By that I mean do so many missions then go to Horizon. Do a few more, go to the Collector ship. Do a few more after that, then get the IFF. At that point Shepherd says, "we need to keep building the team..." and any smidgen of a sense of urgency BIO previously created is thrown out the window. However, if for example, player gets side-tracked by a lot of side missions and doesn't get through all the loyalty or recruitment stuff before being forced to do the suicide run, then it really could be a suicide run, or at least be more difficult to keep everyone alive. Much better, imho.

[Nepenthe]

I can smell it from here, ME3 will have you leave Earth and then going off to find reinforcements, despite the fact that once the Reapers have access to one mass relay they have access to everything and can just kill everyone and everything by their ridiculous numbers.

 

Plot holes ahoy, Bioware'll just keep on ruining what was once a cool concept (Mecha-Cthulhu FTW). They're being nerfed constantly.

They've always taked decades to destroy the civilization, even in the situations where they managed to shut down the mass relay network for everybody else (and thus take systems apart piecemeal). Even then indoctridated infiltrators played a key role in their attack. Obviously it's going to take a lot longer, this time.

 

p.s. what ridiculous numbers?

[HoonDing]

I can smell it from here, ME3 will have you leave Earth and then going off to find reinforcements, despite the fact that once the Reapers have access to one mass relay they have access to everything and can just kill everyone and everything by their ridiculous numbers.

 

Plot holes ahoy, Bioware'll just keep on ruining what was once a cool concept (Mecha-Cthulhu FTW). They're being nerfed constantly.

ME3 in a nutshell: