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There's nothing wrong with reloading. Dying is an integral part of the way you play video games. :rolleyes:

Dying because you screwed up, not because you did something perfectly reasonable. That's frustrating as hell and takes you out of the moment.

 

 

yes, but you have to ask yourself: "I have lived in a vault all my life, and know nothing of the outside world, nor much in the way of combat and survival skills, is it reasonable for me to now just walk off in a random direction in an obviously hostile world? Or should I head to that town over there in the distance and see if I can learn anything about the safer areas to travel through?"

 

 

I think many gamers are lazy and don't want to stop to think if what they are doing is reasonable or not within the context of the gameworld.

 

edit: and i think these gamers should run into deathclaws as punishment.

Edited by entrerix


Killing is kind of like playin' a basketball game. I am there. and the other player is there. and it's just the two of us. and I put the other player's body in my van. and I am the winner. - Nice Pete.

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There's nothing wrong with reloading. Dying is an integral part of the way you play video games. :rolleyes:

Dying because you screwed up, not because you did something perfectly reasonable. That's frustrating as hell and takes you out of the moment.

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But I liked being slaughtered by an Ashbeast the first time saw one in Risen!

 

(I think Kingdoms of Amalur might have something interesting going on. They will have some enemies outside of a dungeon and those enemies are indicative of what you might face in there.)

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Yeah, it's perfectly reasonable to go anywhere you want in an RPG world and expect any enemy and any situation to offer you a reasonably similar level of challenge designed to ensure that death would only come if you screwed up, i.e. to the extent of playing Mario without the jump button...

 

This is just another case of throwing around abstracted generalities that have no relevance to this particular context. It makes sense to get rid of frustrating reloading on "guess right or die" puzzles, it makes no sense to make that argument when talking about decisions like level scaling.

 

In fact, the question should never be "should an enemy be so strong to kill a player character easily", it should be, "should a game allow the player access to areas that are meant to be too difficult", and if a game does so in a good manner, great! It's nonsensical that we started off from that desire for nonlinearity and player freedom, and have now gone face back into arse, and are arguing that player freedom, actually, represents making him able to go anywhere to the point that he should not really be in danger anywhere. Because it's frustrating.

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the newest ign interview with todd howard has a bit of new info in it.

 

game still has me excited, but i wonder, will all male bodies be the same? ie that barbarian in one of the new pics is really bulky, if I make a sneaky elf thief, is he going to have massive shoulders and triceps and walk around like he belongs on the cover of an amon amarth album?


Killing is kind of like playin' a basketball game. I am there. and the other player is there. and it's just the two of us. and I put the other player's body in my van. and I am the winner. - Nice Pete.

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Yeah, it's perfectly reasonable to go anywhere you want in an RPG world and expect any enemy and any situation to offer you a reasonably similar level of challenge designed to ensure that death would only come if you screwed up, i.e. to the extent of playing Mario without the jump button...

 

This is just another case of throwing around abstracted generalities that have no relevance to this particular context. It makes sense to get rid of frustrating reloading on "guess right or die" puzzles, it makes no sense to make that argument when talking about decisions like level scaling.

 

In fact, the question should never be "should an enemy be so strong to kill a player character easily", it should be, "should a game allow the player access to areas that are meant to be too difficult", and if a game does so in a good manner, great! It's nonsensical that we started off from that desire for nonlinearity and player freedom, and have now gone face back into arse, and are arguing that player freedom, actually, represents making him able to go anywhere to the point that he should not really be in danger anywhere. Because it's frustrating.

Beat that strawman some more.

 

I'm not saying, and I don't think Wrath is either, that a player should be able to go anywhere. But they do need to make a reasonable effort to warn you off of areas that are too high. If the first indication that the player should not have gone that way is that the enemy has aggroed and killed them, then it's not a reasonable effort.

Edited by Tale
"Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater."
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new vegas handled this well, many npcs were telling you at the beginning "dont go north its too dangerous, and if you go south then stick to the roads"


Killing is kind of like playin' a basketball game. I am there. and the other player is there. and it's just the two of us. and I put the other player's body in my van. and I am the winner. - Nice Pete.

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My point is that a quick and gruesome death is a valid way of telling the player that its too dangerous, and it's not a sign of 'bad design' or 'frustrating level design', as you guys are implying.

 

The best is when it's combined like in FNV (you really will get chunked by deathclaws, but hey you were warned), but death and reload is a perfectly valid mechanism, it's not a 'failure'. The only failure would be if alternate paths were not properly marked for the player who then tries to kill deathclaws 200 times. Now, when you read Todd Howard's full quote

 

We want peaks and valleys, where sometimes you're really challenged, and other times you feel really powerful. The trick is telling a player in a wide open game, without locking stuff off, that "this area is too hard for you, come back later."

 

...it is actually pretty ambiguous, that could mean anything, so we'll see.

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I'm not saying, and I don't think Wrath is either, that a player should be able to go anywhere. But they do need to make a reasonable effort to warn you off of areas that are too high. If the first indication that the player should not have gone that way is that the enemy has aggroed and killed them, then it's not a reasonable effort.

 

 

If gamers choose to ignore or not pay attention, how much time should developers spend putting forth a best effort?

 

I completely agree that a open world game should be designed to provide clues and warning about the difficulties of certain areas so that a player can make semi-informed desicions about whether to procede left at the fork to Happyvale or turn left into the Black Canyon of Bloody Death. But how far can a developer go?

 

In Morrowind, for example, devs gave players 3 different sets of directions, multiple maps, road signs, and a silt strider direct to Balmora, and gamers still complained that they couldn't find Caius Cosades. ANd the number of complainers was large enough that, voila: Oblivion has the infamous quest compass. So if gamers refuse to stop and read or think for even a few moments, how can a developer force that upon them?

 

One option is of course the locked off area: No go until the developer gives the OK.

Another option is level scaling, so that gamer never has to get their panties in a knot over an area thay's too hard. Of course, the whole concept of level scaling is fundamentally antithetical to the core concepts of a rpg.

Third option is, chunk the idiots who can't be bothered to stop and think. That's my choice.

 

Getting chunked in a rpg is simply God's way of telling you your level isn't high enough for this area.

Come back later. With a bigger gun.

Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
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If you see something that's 8 foot tall, with huge claws and teeth and muscles like a gorilla.. shouldn't that be enough of a sign that you should turn around and walk away? I mean Deathclaws doesn't exactly look like fluffy puppies. Do you really need written signs to tell you that they are dangerous?

 

And yes, I love the way Risen does it. Place an ashbeast in a bush near the road where you have to walk.. You will know when you've gone too far into dangerous territory.

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game still has me excited, but i wonder, will all male bodies be the same? ie that barbarian in one of the new pics is really bulky, if I make a sneaky elf thief, is he going to have massive shoulders and triceps and walk around like he belongs on the cover of an amon amarth album?

 

Who plays as elves anyway?

 

And yes, I love the way Risen does it. Place an ashbeast in a bush near the road where you have to walk.. You will know when you've gone too far into dangerous territory.

 

I still have nightmares about that orc near the town from G2.

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game still has me excited, but i wonder, will all male bodies be the same? ie that barbarian in one of the new pics is really bulky, if I make a sneaky elf thief, is he going to have massive shoulders and triceps and walk around like he belongs on the cover of an amon amarth album?

 

the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-20110330052304153.jpg

 

I think this is a dark elf getting stealthily stabbed in the gut, there's muscle definition but he certainly looks lanky enough :)

 

Here's the rest of the new screengrabs from the IGN article.

 

the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-20110330052320824.jpg

 

the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-20110330052314715.jpg

 

the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-20110330052311168.jpg

 

the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-20110330052307231.jpg

 

I'm liking the heavy use of fog, that plus mountains should make the gameworld seem huge like Vvardenfell.

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Look at that arm... this is still Gamebryo and it shows.

"Alright, I've been thinking. When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade - make life take the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons, what am I supposed to do with these? Demand to see life's manager. Make life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons. Do you know who I am? I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down! With the lemons. I'm going to to get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that burns your house down!"

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Its just a notch above Oblivion. Not the usual graphical leap one expects from Bethesda, the consoles are really slowing us all down.

 

If it means slowing down computer upgrades as well, I'm all for it.

 

The environments look pretty nice I must say. The second shot with the foggy mountains the background is wonderful.

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I have to say, i dont think thats a dark elf getting stabbed, i think its a zombie or something.

 

If it IS a dark elf, then I'm happy because he is definitely not the same body as the barbarian dude. though its funny that the sword wielding guy in the elf armor is standing in the barbarian posture, looks a bit out of place. not a big deal, im just happy the game looks better than oblivion, though I agree its not as big a step up as oblivion was over morrowind.

 

it still looks quite a bit better though. find some side by sides with oblivion shots and you'll see a fairly significant step up in graphics


Killing is kind of like playin' a basketball game. I am there. and the other player is there. and it's just the two of us. and I put the other player's body in my van. and I am the winner. - Nice Pete.

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Look at that arm... this is still Gamebryo and it shows.

 

To be honest that's the vibe I get, though I don't dislike Gamebryo, just Bethesda's crash happy, bugged out usage of it, I'll be seriously let down if Skyrim is as unreliable as Fallout 3, nothing spoils immersion more than being dumped back to your desktop every hour.

 

All in all, I can live with some graphical roughness if they spend more time making the game good and stable.

Edited by WDeranged
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I have to say, i dont think thats a dark elf getting stabbed, i think its a zombie or something.

 

If it IS a dark elf, then I'm happy because he is definitely not the same body as the barbarian dude. though its funny that the sword wielding guy in the elf armor is standing in the barbarian posture, looks a bit out of place. not a big deal, im just happy the game looks better than oblivion, though I agree its not as big a step up as oblivion was over morrowind.

 

it still looks quite a bit better though. find some side by sides with oblivion shots and you'll see a fairly significant step up in graphics

 

I really think it's an elf, I did ponder that it might be one of the Draugr undead but they have far more emaciated arms, you can see every sinew, whereas the guy in the picture has smooth looking skin.

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The screens look fine to me, especially the mountain fog and the lighting. I don't tend to mind if graphics aren't taking giant technological leaps anyway. As long as the art direction is good, even games with sub-par graphics from a technical point of view still look quite pretty to me.

 

Besides, Oblivion looked technically impressive for its time, and impressively bland as well. Perhaps this time, Bethesda's focus is on art direction?

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Yet the rocks are still extremely crude and simple shapes. Basically they bumped up textures, effects and character models while keeping the environment assets.

 

That leaves the animations, which we all know were horrid in Oblivion.

 

Of course it all pales in comparison to the imbecilic story, dialog and to a lesser extent quests. Perhaps they learned something after Fallout 3 although the trailer about the return of the dragons (yawn) doesn't suggest much.

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if the game is fallout 3 with swords I will still be entertained by it for a month or so.


Killing is kind of like playin' a basketball game. I am there. and the other player is there. and it's just the two of us. and I put the other player's body in my van. and I am the winner. - Nice Pete.

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if the game is fallout 3 with swords I will still be entertained by it for a month or so.

It's Oblivion with swords with swords?

 

 

lol. The cycle continues...

Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
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