Dragon Age 2

[Orogun01]

No, I will rail against it because it's punitive and forces me to log to EA weekly, like talking to a parole officer.

Edited February 1, 2011 by Orogun01

[Gromnir]

No, I will rail against it because it's punitive and forces me to log to EA weekly, like talking to a parole officer.

 

 

...

 

possibly the worst analogy we has seen in a couple o' years. congrats.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gorgon]

It's the login thing that's the problem, not the concurrent installs. I'd like to be able to play DA2 in three years, who the hell even knows if there is going to be a Bioware in three years.

[Nepenthe]

It's the login thing that's the problem, not the concurrent installs. I'd like to be able to play DA2 in three years, who the hell even knows if there is going to be a Bioware in three years.

All Bio games have 'sunset' plans

[Guest Slinky]

It's the login thing that's the problem, not the concurrent installs. I'd like to be able to play DA2 in three years, who the hell even knows if there is going to be a Bioware in three years.

I'm not a great supported for DRM, but this argument always sound a bit off to me.

 

I know firms like EA are greedy, like pretty much every big company is, but I find it a bit far fetched that there wouldn't be a patch to remove the DRM if something would happen.

 

Or I'm just being too optimistic, dunno.

[Slowtrain]

I would say piracy is 1:1 at kindest estimates.

 

For example ME2 was pirated 2 million times, I doubt ME2 reached anywhere near those sales on PC.

 

 

If those numbers are accurate then its pretty obvious why publishers are a bit cheesed off.

 

I'm not partiucuarly a fan of DRM, but it's hard to condemn publishers for trying something, anything, to lower those piracy number.

[Hurlshort]

I don't care about concurrent installs. I have a crappy internet connection. It is a legitimate concern.

 

Last month, my internet died for two weeks. I was able to play my Steam games in offline mode. I was able to play most single player games using a CD. The one game I wasn't able to play was Starcraft 2, I needed to log in to even access the single player part. It was lame. But I get that Starcraft is designed around the whole battle.net MP scene. DA2, on the other hand, doesn't have any real good excuse for needing these weekly checks. You should be able to validate your copy, and then never go online again if you so desire. It is unnecessary.

 

I'm pretty tolerant of DRM. I'm very anti-piracy and all that. But I don't see the point in this.

[Gromnir]

hurl lost internet connection for two weeks last month, yes? an extreme example for somebody living in northern ca. happened how many times last year? at worst you woulda' been unable to play da for about a week? wow. am betting that such a possibility is enough to dissuade multitudes of potential purchasers from buying da2.

 

and as for why ea believes such is necessary, am thinking the piracy numbers make the answer to that question kinda obvious. yes, the drm may ultimately prove ineffectual, as most drm schemes do. but try to tell stockholders that it ain't worth the effort to fight piracy even in the face o' potentially millions of dollars in lost revenue. people is being willful obtuse if they cannot see the "why."

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited February 1, 2011 by Gromnir

[Tigranes]

I think it's hilarious how when a group of people in the industry have arbitrarily decided that the consumer should get more and more inconveniences for his money and get treated worse and worse, there are consumers who really pull out every argument in the book to try and defend the course of events and accuse others of being whiners or whatever. Even worse, is complaining a crime now? Why don't we discuss the issue instead? It doesn't make you cooler, more intelligent, or more correct if you call other people whiners., it just devalues your argument.

 

Obviously DA2 DRM isn't the "worst ever", that's a completely meaningless debate, except to show how this stuff is becoming more common. The only actually relevant issues are (a) does DA2 DRM inconvenience the consumer in a substantial way, and (b) is DA2 DRM part of, and encourages, DRM getting more and more intrusive and prohibitive? You could argue that (a) is not substantial, and I can see how people might say that - though even in New Zealand you get frequent internet outages - but (b) is pretty much impossible to argue against. Unless you want to be an ostrich and say "meh DRM doesn't affect me so far, so I'll assume its future iterations will continue not to bother me, so all of you are whiners shut up". And that's very logical...

 

'course it's not the end of the world, but it's a good reason not to buy DA2. Made an exception with FNV, but this isn't worth supporting bad DRM.

 

yes, the drm may ultimately prove ineffectual, as most drm schemes do. but try to tell stockholders that it ain't worth the effort to fight piracy even in the face o' potentially millions of dollars in lost revenue. people is being willful obtuse if they cannot see the "why."

 

Of course that's the reason. Doesn't mean DRM is effective in practice, or that consumers shouldn't oppose it.

[Gromnir]

I think it's hilarious how when a group of people in the industry have arbitrarily decided that the consumer should get more and more inconveniences for his money and get treated worse and worse, there are consumers who really pull out every argument in the book to try and defend the course of events and accuse others of being whiners or whatever. Even worse, is complaining a crime now? Why don't we discuss the issue instead? It doesn't make you cooler, more intelligent, or more correct if you call other people whiners., it just devalues your argument.

 

Obviously DA2 DRM isn't the "worst ever", that's a completely meaningless debate, except to show how this stuff is becoming more common. The only actually relevant issues are (a) does DA2 DRM inconvenience the consumer in a substantial way, and (b) is DA2 DRM part of, and encourages, DRM getting more and more intrusive and prohibitive? You could argue that (a) is not substantial, and I can see how people might say that - though even in New Zealand you get frequent internet outages - but (b) is pretty much impossible to argue against. Unless you want to be an ostrich and say "meh DRM doesn't affect me so far, so I'll assume its future iterations will continue not to bother me, so all of you are whiners shut up". And that's very logical...

 

'course it's not the end of the world, but it's a good reason not to buy DA2. Made an exception with FNV, but this isn't worth supporting bad DRM.

 

 

ok, so tig is going with the slippery slope argument to fight this drm-- is not that this drm is bad, but if you give ground here, then what drm scheme will be next, right? is terrible logic, but it is a reasonable argument. sometimes logic is not helpful, and if you honest believe that this move is an incremental,but purposeful, step towards hell, then we encourage you to fight.

 

...

 

but be honest... how many o' those frequent internet outages in new zealand last more than a week. the only way this affects you at all is if those outages are prolonged. so, if you is enduring such regular outages in an industrialized nation, we suggest that you is a subscriber o' fly-by-night internet service. you is willing to endure such incompetence in your provider while at the same time complaining 'bout the inconvenience being caused by ea? ok, but we must suggest that you is a bit wacky and selective 'bout your consumer rage.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited February 1, 2011 by Gromnir

[C2B]

How many good, serious films have you seen which have trailers with stupid, puerile jokes in them?

How many good films have been completely serious?

 

Serious is overrated.

 

Especially if you go the ridiculus way. In gaming Heavy Rain is a recent example.

 

At least be self aware about it.

[Slowtrain]

I think it's hilarious how when a group of people in the industry have arbitrarily decided that the consumer should get more and more inconveniences for his money and get treated worse and worse, there are consumers who really pull out every argument in the book to try and defend the course of events and accuse others of being whiners or whatever. Even worse, is complaining a crime now? Why don't we discuss the issue instead? It doesn't make you cooler, more intelligent, or more correct if you call other people whiners., it just devalues your argument.

 

Obviously DA2 DRM isn't the "worst ever", that's a completely meaningless debate, except to show how this stuff is becoming more common. The only actually relevant issues are (a) does DA2 DRM inconvenience the consumer in a substantial way, and (b) is DA2 DRM part of, and encourages, DRM getting more and more intrusive and prohibitive? You could argue that (a) is not substantial, and I can see how people might say that - though even in New Zealand you get frequent internet outages - but (b) is pretty much impossible to argue against. Unless you want to be an ostrich and say "meh DRM doesn't affect me so far, so I'll assume its future iterations will continue not to bother me, so all of you are whiners shut up". And that's very logical...

 

'course it's not the end of the world, but it's a good reason not to buy DA2. Made an exception with FNV, but this isn't worth supporting bad DRM.

 

yes, the drm may ultimately prove ineffectual, as most drm schemes do. but try to tell stockholders that it ain't worth the effort to fight piracy even in the face o' potentially millions of dollars in lost revenue. people is being willful obtuse if they cannot see the "why."

 

Of course that's the reason. Doesn't mean DRM is effective in practice, or that consumers shouldn't oppose it.

 

 

However, if far more people are pirating the pc version of the game than are buying it, which appears to be the case, than a publisher really doesn't have all that much to lose if they alienate some fans with inconvenience. While some legit customers might choose to forgo the purchase, that number really probably isn't very large and considering the vast size of the pirated copy base, the publisher stands to make back lost revenue plus a lot more just by lowering the number pf pirated copies by a relatively small percent.

 

Really, it almost makes best sense to not even bother with a pc version at all, if pirated copies outnumber legit copies by 2 or 3 to 1.

[sorophx]

a publisher really doesn't have all that much to lose if they alienate some fans with inconvenience.

yeah, but pirates are going to crack the game anyway, so what's the point in alienating some of your otherwise guaranteed customers? the publisher loses either way. they should be thinking of other ways to sell their games, not applying something that already has been proven ineffective

[Tigranes]

I think the DLC & DRM situation over the last ~3 years have very clearly shown that, though not necessarily across individual items (who is arguing that DA2 DRM will directly cause all other DRMs to become worse? I know overblowing the opposing argument is a time-honoured debating tactic, but...), the industry as a whole *is* progressively heading towards more prohibitive and internet-based DRM, microtransaction economy, etc.

 

With slowtrain's argument it's very difficult to tell, but my feeling is that the death of the pc market is way exaggerated and the lack of clear numbers only adds to it - the PC market remains a healthy, if smaller, source of revenue and fanbase. It's not a case of "screw them anyway", it's much more likely that the industry sees online DRM as the best way to give them more control over their customers and thus would-be pirates.

[Slowtrain]

a publisher really doesn't have all that much to lose if they alienate some fans with inconvenience.

yeah, but pirates are going to crack the game anyway, so what's the point in alienating some of your otherwise guaranteed customers? the publisher loses either way. they should be thinking of other ways to sell their games, not applying something that already has been proven ineffective

 

 

Yep, whether or not DRM actually works to prevent piracy is certainly a valid question, but in light of what are, imo, pretty outrageous piracy numbers, I can't condemn a publisher for trying things. I mean, seriously, what does a publisher really have to lose if FAR more people are pirating the game than buying it.

 

Certainly every customer has the right to not buy the game if they feel the drm is too restrictive, and those lost sales are a risk the publisher has to take, but given the numbers it seems a reasonable risk.

[sorophx]

I still don't think that DRM is going to make even the small percentage of hardcore pirates buy the game. they'd rather spend months on their message boards begging for a crack, playing other games in the meantime, than buy the game. and the percentage of people who casually pirate games and decide to make an exception for DA2 because of DRM, will be very close to people who'd buy the game otherwise but won't with DRM, imho

Edited February 1, 2011 by sorophx

[Gromnir]

I think the DLC & DRM situation over the last ~3 years have very clearly shown that, though not necessarily across individual items (who is arguing that DA2 DRM will directly cause all other DRMs to become worse? I know overblowing the opposing argument is a time-honoured debating tactic, but...), the industry as a whole *is* progressively heading towards more prohibitive and internet-based DRM, microtransaction economy, etc.

 

With slowtrain's argument it's very difficult to tell, but my feeling is that the death of the pc market is way exaggerated and the lack of clear numbers only adds to it - the PC market remains a healthy, if smaller, source of revenue and fanbase. It's not a case of "screw them anyway", it's much more likely that the industry sees online DRM as the best way to give them more control over their customers and thus would-be pirates.

 

as we noted from the beginning o' this debate, if you is simply fighting the dominant paradigm regardless o' how invasive this drm scheme is, then we got no complaint... as long as you is honest 'bout it. but really, trying to convince us that the da2 scheme is particularly odious, or even an advancement o' the current trend o' industry drm, then we will continue to cry foul. as an example, hurl, who complained o' his undependable internet connection, averages 1.92 posts per day on this board alone. anybody wanna check the post rates for some o' the other folks who does the chicken little routine? gotta be logged in to use this board, no? is a pretty tough sell that da2 drm is crippling with numbers that show such regular traffic by the most vocal opponents.

 

*shrug*

 

is ALL drm bad? perhaps. regardless o' the inherent evil o' drm, convincing us that da2 drm is particularly demanding will prove difficult. one log-in every week? get real.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps and am not seeing this drm as driving some multitude o' genuine purchasers away... is not a genuine concern. yeah, some folks will complain, but still purchase... and others will genuine not buy, but am doubting a noteworthy number o' serious potential purchaser will be discouraged by da2 drm. in fact, if Gromnir were an ea exec and we found out that some overzealous vp had commissioned a study on the number o' potential purchasers o' da2 who owned computers capable of running da2, but did not have an internet connection that they could access at least once every week-or-so, we would fire the clown. waste o' resources. might as well try and discover how many such potential purchasers is without indoor plumbing. not have to do study to know that numbers will be ridiculous small. the number o' folks who b!@%$ & moan is not gonna be anywhere equal to numbers o' actual lost customers.

Edited February 1, 2011 by Gromnir

[Slowtrain]

I still don't think that DRM is going to make even the small percentage of hardcore pirates buy the game.

 

 

You're probably totally correct. But when the ratio between sold vs pirated copies is so far in the red, there's really little choice but to try SOMETHING.

 

It's really all about the numbers.

 

If 10 copies are sold for every copy pirated, then you live with that since its probably an acceptable loss in a business situation.

 

If 1 copy is sold for every three copies pirated, then you either do something about it or stop making the product. ANd this becomes ever more true if the problem platform isn't even generating the largest revenue stream.

 

Seriously, at this point, why feed the internet free pc copies when you can not even make a PC version to begin with. Make everyone buy the console title and be done with it.

[Gorgon]

Also, I wouldn't be able to install DA2 on my laptop and take it somewheres without internet. These things all count against getting the game, it's just too much of a hassle.

[Labadal]

We'll see how The Witcher 2 does saleswise without its DRM. I'm thinking it won't end well, unfortunately.

[Orogun01]

We'll see how The Witcher 2 does saleswise without its DRM. I'm thinking it won't end well, unfortunately.

The first one did well enough to have a sequel and it had horrible DRM that crashed the game every hour.

[sorophx]

it had horrible DRM that crashed the game every hour.

oh? the russian edition didn't. only the CD-key required

[Tigranes]

as we noted from the beginning o' this debate, if you is simply fighting the dominant paradigm regardless o' how invasive this drm scheme is, then we got no complaint... as long as you is honest 'bout it. but really, trying to convince us that the da2 scheme is particularly odious, or even an advancement o' the current trend o' industry drm, then we will continue to cry foul.

 

Actually, I have no real complaint with what you're saying here Grom. To clarify, I don't think DA2 DRM stands out in any way - it's pretty average these days. And that's the object of my concern, that only a couple of years after online-DRM was the next big bad thing it's already gained a lot of ground. Certainly, DA2 doesn't push the envelope here - it's impact is that as a big, supposedly PC-oriented release it will contribute to, and show, how commonly accepted online DRM has become.

 

More specifically about the prospect of playing DA2, I wonder whether the weekly logins are hard-set (i.e. every 7 days at a given time), or it just logs in every time if you are online, and then counts 7x24 hours after its last login when it can't. If the former, then you'd sit there thinking "I need to go somewhere without internet, now when's the last time this game logged itself in?"

 

I suppose requiring EA login makes it even easier to entice people to DLCs though.

[Orogun01]

it had horrible DRM that crashed the game every hour.

oh? the russian edition didn't. only the CD-key required

Ahhh, Russia and their disregard for DRM. Wonder why EA doesn't complaint to them? After all, a lot of Russian versions are used for the cracking process.

[Nepenthe]

Also, I wouldn't be able to install DA2 on my laptop and take it somewheres without internet. These things all count against getting the game, it's just too much of a hassle.

What were the other things? Even this sounds like a pretty extreme scenario.

 

I mean, I certainly have to recharge my battery after every few hours of gaming, and I don't think I've been in a place that has electricity but no option for accessing the internet in, well, this millennium.

 

Not that I have a laptop that comes even close to DA2s minspec. Congratulations to you for having one, though.

Edited February 2, 2011 by Nepenthe