Bioware's New Game

[Calax]

The only aspect of the ME plot and setting that I really have trouble suspending disbelief and just going with is the extaordinarily short span of time between human first contact and the present state of human colonization and galactic political involvement. But that's a background detail that rarely comes up outside of codex entries.

I've always kind of liked the idea that instead of humans being a technologically backward and small civilization in the galactic scope, in ME their military (and, largely, tech) was on a par with the most powerful citadel races (and hence, the meteoric rise in galactic politics).

I can somewhat understand that... but the issue for me is that Humans "first contact" war was initiated before they really had a good grasp of Mass Effect fields... and yet just about every tech in the game uses those fields (Shields divert weaponry, guns use ME fields to get things going, cars float on ME fields etc etc). And to have completely adapted that tech into everything so readily....

[Gromnir]

The only aspect of the ME plot and setting that I really have trouble suspending disbelief and just going with is the extaordinarily short span of time between human first contact and the present state of human colonization and galactic political involvement. But that's a background detail that rarely comes up outside of codex entries.

 

The rest of it fits pretty well within established "this is how spaceships and aliens and such work in mainstream sci-fi movies" criteria. The plot and setting are largely unimaginative and derivative, but they're not conspicuously terrible such that they get in the way of the things that make the games fun. (Unless you're just one of the joyless schlubs who are too busy complaining that the explosion of the Death Star shouldn't make any noise to actually enjoy the movie.)

My biggest concern it's that for such a well crafted universe with an immense amount of information in the codex, barely none of it is integrated or it's shown in the main story. There is a wide gap between the Mass Effect universe and the Mass Effect games.

 

*scratches noggin*

 

so, how do you propose the developers go about integrating? surely not through tedious exposition, right? so, give examples o' stuff you wanna see in game, and then tell us how you integrate so that it all fits.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Majek]

Calax That bothers me too, so i try no to think about it too much. 50 years more and it would be more believable to me.

Edited February 10, 2011 by Majek

[Niten_Ryu]

Timeline don't really bother me because in the event of the singularity in technology, advances happen really fast compared to the time before the singularity event. Birth of agriculture, writing, steam engines and industrialization, atomic and computer age. Finding something like Mass Effect tech would be singularity event and thus it makes sense that human advanced really fast after that.

 

I like how humans are bullies in Mass Effect universe. Well, at least smarter bullies then the Krogan (so no sterilization). Actually human supremacy angle is one of the best parts of the whole saga and Bioware could have some juicy options how to deal with it. I'm bit worried that they take easy way out and galaxy will rally behind Shepards agenda, no matter that choices you took.

[Oblarg]

The plot is unsalvageable because it was crap to start with.

 

I disagree. It wasn't amazing, but it was good enough. There was nothing overtly wrong with it. There are lots of the standard genre tropes, sure, but things don't have to be gushing with originality to be good. The main premise - that there's a cycle of extinction in the galaxy driven by an ancient race of sentient machines - is perfectly fine and could even be somewhat great if they had taken it in a more interesting direction.

 

Unfortunately, they shat all over it with ME2 and made the Reapers look like a bunch of bumbling fools. And now, despite the entire "trapped in dark space" thing which was the entire driving force behind the plot of the first game, they're attacking earth? Completely moronic.

Edited February 10, 2011 by Oblarg

[Tale]

Human supremacy is the thing I dislike most. It's that typical fantasy "humans are special" all over again. Like when Elves mention that humans live short, so they must live fiercely to make up for it! Which was echoed by Liara, as I recall. It's one of the more annoying cliches to me.

 

Fiction is just too abundant with humans either being on the top or are working their way there. I'd be satisfied with equal. A nice thing about Star Wars. It's never brought up.

Edited February 10, 2011 by Tale

[Oblarg]

Human supremacy is the thing I dislike most. It's that typical fantasy "humans are special" all over again. Like when Elves mention that humans live short, so they must live fiercely to make up for it! Which was echoed by Liara, as I recall. It's one of the more annoying cliches to me.

 

Fiction is just too abundant with humans either being on the top or are working their way there. I'd be satisfied with equal. A nice thing about Star Wars. It's never brought up.

 

Yes, that bothered me too. I liked the emphasis of the first game, where humans were newcomers and not respected in the galaxy. They should have continued in that vein for the entire trilogy, it would make for a much more interesting setting.

 

Hell, there was even all that nonsense about "genetic superiority" of humans in the second game. What the hell?

[Calax]

Interesting thing is that the humans are more impatient for their place in the world than the Salarians but the Salarians are shortest lived.

[Orogun01]

The only aspect of the ME plot and setting that I really have trouble suspending disbelief and just going with is the extaordinarily short span of time between human first contact and the present state of human colonization and galactic political involvement. But that's a background detail that rarely comes up outside of codex entries.

 

The rest of it fits pretty well within established "this is how spaceships and aliens and such work in mainstream sci-fi movies" criteria. The plot and setting are largely unimaginative and derivative, but they're not conspicuously terrible such that they get in the way of the things that make the games fun. (Unless you're just one of the joyless schlubs who are too busy complaining that the explosion of the Death Star shouldn't make any noise to actually enjoy the movie.)

My biggest concern it's that for such a well crafted universe with an immense amount of information in the codex, barely none of it is integrated or it's shown in the main story. There is a wide gap between the Mass Effect universe and the Mass Effect games.

 

*scratches noggin*

 

so, how do you propose the developers go about integrating? surely not through tedious exposition, right? so, give examples o' stuff you wanna see in game, and then tell us how you integrate so that it all fits.

 

HA! Good Fun!

How about the same way it's integrated in the real world: with a direct link to the physiology of the species. Man doesn't have claws or fangs, so he makes up for it with a sharp rock. Man has no tough skin so he gets mauled when trying to use a sharp rock against a tiger; solution is to wear tough animal skins and attach sharp rock to the end of a stick.

Technology is driven mostly by limitations, I find it weird that no species in ME has any technology of their own and that the guns seem to be universal. I mean you pick up Geth technology (the assault rifle) and can use from the get go, no reverse engineering no accounting for differences in Human and Geth physiology.

I feel like they missed a really good opportunity to have an weapon's customization system and flesh out their universe.

[Oblarg]

There's more than that, too - some of the scenes are directly contradictory to the codex. The space combat is supposed to take place at extreme distances, with dreadnaughts slowly pounding away at each others barriers while moving relatively slowly. This is in direct conflict with every space battle we've ever seen in the series, where the ships are nearly on top of each other and accelerating at absurd rates. I think it would have been really cool if the space combat took place with the ships far out of visual range - that's something I've never seen in a sci-fi game.

[Thorton_AP]

Was there another space combat that wasn't involving just the Normandy? THere was the Citadel fight, but that was a pretty unique (and desperate) encounter.

[Orogun01]

Was there another space combat that wasn't involving just the Normandy? THere was the Citadel fight, but that was a pretty unique (and desperate) encounter.

Not without the Normandy, but the battle with the Collector's vessel counts.

[Oblarg]

Was there another space combat that wasn't involving just the Normandy? THere was the Citadel fight, but that was a pretty unique (and desperate) encounter.

 

Yes, the Citadel fight was cool and epic and all, but it made absolutely no sense with the figures given for the distances involved in space combat in the codex.

 

Also, it would be nice if the entire "limiting factor in space battle is heat buildup" were to pop up at least once.

[Thorton_AP]

Yes, the Citadel fight was cool and epic and all, but it made absolutely no sense with the figures given for the distances involved in space combat in the codex.

 

Of course it didn't. Or were you expecting the Reapers to abide by the same doctrines as the Citadel fleet and not rush in so it can take control like it actually did?

 

The Citadel makes perfect sense, even with the codex statement. It wasn't a conventional fight, and was, as stated, unique and desperate.

 

 

What other space battles in the game feature dreadnought class ships going at it? It's been a long time so I do not remember. Or is the only one you have to go on the Citadel fight, which is a situation where one should not expect that standard doctrines be adhered to.

 

 

Also, it would be nice if the entire "limiting factor in space battle is heat buildup" were to pop up at least once.

 

Space battles themselves are a relatively small part of the entire experience in the Mass Effect games. Unless you're hoping for the cutscene to actually include downtime during the cooling of the weapons. Might as well nitpick why people don't use the bathrooms.

[Gromnir]

The only aspect of the ME plot and setting that I really have trouble suspending disbelief and just going with is the extaordinarily short span of time between human first contact and the present state of human colonization and galactic political involvement. But that's a background detail that rarely comes up outside of codex entries.

 

The rest of it fits pretty well within established "this is how spaceships and aliens and such work in mainstream sci-fi movies" criteria. The plot and setting are largely unimaginative and derivative, but they're not conspicuously terrible such that they get in the way of the things that make the games fun. (Unless you're just one of the joyless schlubs who are too busy complaining that the explosion of the Death Star shouldn't make any noise to actually enjoy the movie.)

My biggest concern it's that for such a well crafted universe with an immense amount of information in the codex, barely none of it is integrated or it's shown in the main story. There is a wide gap between the Mass Effect universe and the Mass Effect games.

 

*scratches noggin*

 

so, how do you propose the developers go about integrating? surely not through tedious exposition, right? so, give examples o' stuff you wanna see in game, and then tell us how you integrate so that it all fits.

 

HA! Good Fun!

How about the same way it's integrated in the real world: with a direct link to the physiology of the species. .

 

huh? explain. is you asking for a much more detailed codex, or what? if you want it integrated in the story, then is you actually asking for the notoriously tedious exposition we already referenced? take star wars as a reference. how much o' the details o' alien physiology and politics were explained in the core story? heck, we never even really got no explanation o' the jedi order during the entirety o' the first three movies. there is a reason why such tedium is avoided, and why explanations o' midichlorians (sp?) is seeming horribly out-of-place when they pops up in the midst o' story telling. sure, you can utilize the drell to explain drell and hanhar (sp?) culture, but is awkward even when done to the limited degree we saw in me2. imagine if more such details were crammed into game... and you think such is a good thing?

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited February 11, 2011 by Gromnir

[Oblarg]

Yes, the Citadel fight was cool and epic and all, but it made absolutely no sense with the figures given for the distances involved in space combat in the codex.

 

Of course it didn't. Or were you expecting the Reapers to abide by the same doctrines as the Citadel fleet and not rush in so it can take control like it actually did?

 

The Citadel makes perfect sense, even with the codex statement. It wasn't a conventional fight, and was, as stated, unique and desperate.

 

 

What other space battles in the game feature dreadnought class ships going at it? It's been a long time so I do not remember. Or is the only one you have to go on the Citadel fight, which is a situation where one should not expect that standard doctrines be adhered to.

 

 

Also, it would be nice if the entire "limiting factor in space battle is heat buildup" were to pop up at least once.

 

Space battles themselves are a relatively small part of the entire experience in the Mass Effect games. Unless you're hoping for the cutscene to actually include downtime during the cooling of the weapons. Might as well nitpick why people don't use the bathrooms.

 

Oh come on, look at the distance the relay is from the Citadel itself - that's not at all realistic, especially according to the figures given in the codex. In addition, it's not following any "doctrines," the numbers follow logically from the projectile speeds and ship speeds (which is mentioned in the codex) - it makes no sense for dreadnaughts to ever be on top of each other.

[Wrath of Dagon]

The plot is unsalvageable because it was crap to start with.

 

okie dokie... but am recalling that you liked kotor, no? a hero and his companions must band together and overcome obstacles small and large as they fights to save the village/nation/world/galaxy/universe from the predations o' an Evil force. gots different window dressing, but basic scenario o' me and kotor is very similar. in fact, the greatest strength o' the kotor story is that it is unapologetic 'bout the manner in which it parallels the major plot points o' the original star wars trilogy... another save-the-galaxy-from-evil story.

 

Just because two plots can be reduced to the same summary, doesn't mean they're equivalent. The KOTOR plot was serviceable, you had an immensly powerful evil dictator modeled on real-life evil dictators who our plucky crew of heroic misfits had to take down. The real genius of KOTOR was what they did with that plot premise and with Star Wars universe. They created a mysterious goal to work towards (the Star Forge) and with that as motivation sent you to various planets to solve the problems there. The difference from ME is that each planet was unique, had its own character, and had a problem directly related to its character and theme. Which answers your other question of how to explore lore through gameplay without resorting to heavy exposition.

 

Unfortunately, they shat all over it with ME2 and made the Reapers look like a bunch of bumbling fools.

They were a bunch of bumbling fools to start with, Simon bar Sinister could come up with a better plot to take over the galaxy than them.

Edited February 11, 2011 by Wrath of Dagon

[Gromnir]

The plot is unsalvageable because it was crap to start with.

 

okie dokie... but am recalling that you liked kotor, no? a hero and his companions must band together and overcome obstacles small and large as they fights to save the village/nation/world/galaxy/universe from the predations o' an Evil force. gots different window dressing, but basic scenario o' me and kotor is very similar. in fact, the greatest strength o' the kotor story is that it is unapologetic 'bout the manner in which it parallels the major plot points o' the original star wars trilogy... another save-the-galaxy-from-evil story.

 

Just because two plots can be reduced to the same summary, doesn't mean they're equivalent. The KOTOR plot was serviceable, you had an immensly powerful evil dictator modeled on real-life evil dictators who our plucky crew of heroic misfits had to take down. The real genius of KOTOR was what they did with that plot premise and with Star Wars universe. They created a mysterious goal to work towards (the Star Forge) and with that as motivation sent you to various planets to solve the problems there. The difference from ME is that each planet was unique, had its own character, and had a problem directly related to its character and theme. Which answers your other question of how to explore lore through gameplay without resorting to heavy exposition.

 

Unfortunately, they shat all over it with ME2 and made the Reapers look like a bunch of bumbling fools.

They were a bunch of bumbling fools to start with, Simon bar Sinister could come up with a better plot to take over the galaxy than them.

 

anybody else notice that wrath's attempt at distinguishing made kotor and me seems More similar rather than more distinct? am also noting that you didn't help clarify the exposition question either. me used each planet to delve into local flora and fauna at least as much as did kotor... and me didn't have no stoopid star forge nonsense neither.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Oblarg]

Unfortunately, they shat all over it with ME2 and made the Reapers look like a bunch of bumbling fools.

They were a bunch of bumbling fools to start with, Simon bar Sinister could come up with a better plot to take over the galaxy than them.

 

They weren't "plotting to take over the galaxy," and their system had worked pretty damn well for a very long time. Unfortunately, they waited too long/got unlucky with the Protheans, and a few managed to survive and cause an interruption. I see nothing overtly wrong with that.

 

However, when it then turns out that they have no backup plan at all (other than making a human reaper to do...I have no ****ing clue, tbh, they never bothered to explain what good it would have been to fling another reaper at the citadel), the plot takes a serious turn for the worse. There were a number of directions they could have taken the series, some of them possibly quite good, but they ****ed it up, introducing the Collectors when they already had a perfectly good villain, and then not even bothering to make the Collectors particularly imposing (they have a grand total of *one* ship that can be destroyed by a frigate designed for stealth).

 

It really just seems to me that they introduced the Reapers in ME1 without really having thought out a reasonable way for them to ultimately be defeated.

[Wrath of Dagon]

anybody else notice that wrath's attempt at distinguishing made kotor and me seems More similar rather than more distinct? am also noting that you didn't help clarify the exposition question either. me used each planet to delve into local flora and fauna at least as much as did kotor... and me didn't have no stoopid star forge nonsense neither.

 

HA! Good Fun!

So? ME is an infinitely inferior attempt to copy KOTOR in a lot of ways, that doesn't speak well for ME. I'm not talking about flaura and fauna, I'm talking about the society of each planet and their distinguishing characteristics, that was the interesting part. As far as star forge being stupid, that's a matter of opinion, I was quite interested in finding out what that thing was. It was certainly a lot less stupid than a giant evil space toaster.

 

They weren't "plotting to take over the galaxy," and their system had worked pretty damn well for a very long time. Unfortunately, they waited too long/got unlucky with the Protheans, and a few managed to survive and cause an interruption. I see nothing overtly wrong with that.

It worked pretty well according to the game, but their system was completely idiotic. Considering how hard it was to defeat just one Reaper, all they had to do was come in and blast away all the navies and then do whatever they wanted. Also, how come the Protheans that survived on the Citadel didn't leave some kind of pictogram to warn everyone else? Don't even get me started on Saren. There are literally dozens of obvious plot holes in that game.

Edited February 11, 2011 by Wrath of Dagon

[Oblarg]

anybody else notice that wrath's attempt at distinguishing made kotor and me seems More similar rather than more distinct? am also noting that you didn't help clarify the exposition question either. me used each planet to delve into local flora and fauna at least as much as did kotor... and me didn't have no stoopid star forge nonsense neither.

 

HA! Good Fun!

So? ME is an infinitely inferior attempt to copy KOTOR in a lot of ways, that doesn't speak well for ME. I'm not talking about flaura and fauna, I'm talking about the society of each planet and their distinguishing characteristics, that was the interesting part. As far as star forge being stupid, that's a matter of opinion, I was quite interested in finding out what that thing was. It was certainly a lot less stupid than a giant evil space toaster.

 

I found the Star Forge to be about on the same level of cliche as the reapers. I still enjoyed both plots.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I'm not talking about whether it's a cliche or not. Also I edited the post you quoted to answer your previous post.

[Oblarg]

anybody else notice that wrath's attempt at distinguishing made kotor and me seems More similar rather than more distinct? am also noting that you didn't help clarify the exposition question either. me used each planet to delve into local flora and fauna at least as much as did kotor... and me didn't have no stoopid star forge nonsense neither.

 

HA! Good Fun!

So? ME is an infinitely inferior attempt to copy KOTOR in a lot of ways, that doesn't speak well for ME. I'm not talking about flaura and fauna, I'm talking about the society of each planet and their distinguishing characteristics, that was the interesting part. As far as star forge being stupid, that's a matter of opinion, I was quite interested in finding out what that thing was. It was certainly a lot less stupid than a giant evil space toaster.

 

They weren't "plotting to take over the galaxy," and their system had worked pretty damn well for a very long time. Unfortunately, they waited too long/got unlucky with the Protheans, and a few managed to survive and cause an interruption. I see nothing overtly wrong with that.

It worked pretty well according to the game, but their system was completely idiotic. Considering how hard it was to defeat just one Reaper, all they had to do was come in and blast away all the navies and then do whatever they wanted. Also, how come the Protheans that survived on the Citadel didn't leave some kind of pictogram to warn everyone else? Don't even get me started on Saren. There are literally dozens of obvious plot holes in that game.

 

There are dozens of plot holes in *lots* of games, it doesn't necessarily make the plots terrible. Most of them were fairly minor. And they did leave a warning, of sorts, in the beacons. The Prothean's didn't survive on the citadel, they survived on Ilos, and the way I understood it is that they just barely lasted long enough to finish the conduit.

 

How Saren first encountered Sovereign is unimportant in the scope of the first game and intentionally left unexplained. It didn't bother me - I was hoping they'd expand upon it in a future game. They didn't.

[Gromnir]

anybody else notice that wrath's attempt at distinguishing made kotor and me seems More similar rather than more distinct? am also noting that you didn't help clarify the exposition question either. me used each planet to delve into local flora and fauna at least as much as did kotor... and me didn't have no stoopid star forge nonsense neither.

 

HA! Good Fun!

So? ME is an infinitely inferior attempt to copy KOTOR in a lot of ways, that doesn't speak well for ME. I'm not talking about flaura and fauna, I'm talking about the society of each planet and their distinguishing characteristics, that was the interesting part. As far as star forge being stupid, that's a matter of opinion, I was quite interested in finding out what that thing was. It was certainly a lot less stupid than a giant evil space toaster.

 

again, you fail to distinguish. the society o' each planet? HA! again, we get at least as much from me as from kotor. am not certain what you has imagined into kotor.

 

is the reapers the "giant evil space toaster," 'cause that could be used to describe the star forge better than the reapers... honest. heck, the star forge even got that shiny chrome art deco thing, and it could actually spit out toast product on demand. reapers, on the other hand, looked like enormous cuttlefish as 'posed to tasters.

 

kotor were clich

[Wrath of Dagon]

I'm not ignoring failings, I don't see the failings. Star Forge being a space toaster isn't a problem, it wasn't supposed to be a sentient evil being. Really I don't see anything silly about it, in a modern war destroying the enemy's means of production is a priority. In ME the entire premise of Reapers unable to get back home like ET was ridiculous from the start. That's not a minor plot hole Oblarg, that's the foundation of the plot.