The Iraq war was a disgrace, but sometimes we forget just how much

[Humodour]

Iraq, what a joke... they couldn't even be bothered executing an ethical war.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...e-Iraq-War.html

 

You know what, screw all you neo-cons ranting about how evil Wikileaks is. YOU are the evil ones for trying to defend violent abuse of enemies and civilians as par for the course - what, do you not consider Iraqis to be as human as you? And heck the worrying thing is that without Wikileaks the extent of the malicious streak of such war-mongers wouldn't have even really come to light in the first place.

 

Any doubts about Wikileaks's methods (which it's turning out are pretty reasonable) are immensely overshadowed by the sheer brutality of the material they are releasing.

 

This is not how civilised Western countries should be acting - and some people wonder why the West has little stomach for war any more. Perhaps in time the good done in Iraq will outweigh the horrors, but I am not confident of that any more (especially with Iran digging their tendrils in - probably another result of Coalition abuses turning the populace against us).

 

This is not how Iraq should have went. The Western world should do better or not at all. I'm praying this will bring some heightened scrutiny to the Afghanistan mission.

[Humodour]

You know what really gives me the warm and fuzzies over this though? And it's got nothing to do with Iraq.

 

It's Chinese dissidents deciding to build their own leaks website to document Chinese government abuses. Now that is going to be powerful.

 

Although I have to question the Chinese founder's choice of pseudonym... they call him 'Deep Throat'.

 

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/artic...04851f6b44a.ad1

[Morgoth]

The Western world should do better or not at all.

The western world? This was all the US' planning and doing, they wouldn't listen to advice from the UN or other western countries.

[Volourn]

"The western world? This was all the US' planning and doing, they wouldn't listen to advice from the UN or other western countries."

 

False. This was far from US only for good or ill. Plenty of other countries played in a role in iraq even if they were relatively small but that's pretty much true for any conflict.

 

No doubt, there was a lot of awful stuff that occured, but Iraq is better off without Hussein. Period. I do agree that the war - espicially post war - could have been handled much, much better.

[Monte Carlo]

Iraq, what a joke... they couldn't even be bothered executing an ethical war.

 

Maybe one day your generation will work out a way to fight a completely clean war, bereft of any human error or folly. In the meantime you can chill out in your Che Guevara T-shirts and sneer. Or perhaps you'll decide never to fight wars, whereupon you will be conquered.

 

Am looking forward, with alacrity, to the day wikileaks finds a whistleblower from, say, the Iranian Revolutionary Guard.

[Thorton_AP]

You know what really gives me the warm and fuzzies over this though? And it's got nothing to do with Iraq.

 

It's Chinese dissidents deciding to build their own leaks website to document Chinese government abuses. Now that is going to be powerful.

 

Although I have to question the Chinese founder's choice of pseudonym... they call him 'Deep Throat'.

 

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/artic...04851f6b44a.ad1

 

 

Do you seriously not know why his name is Deep Throat?

[Monte Carlo]

The confluence between Watergate and Linda Lovelace in early 70's political and pop cultures is lost on these youngsters.

[Thorton_AP]

I'm only 29 but I still know haha.

[Zoraptor]

This is not how Iraq should have went. The Western world should do better or not at all. I'm praying this will bring some heightened scrutiny to the Afghanistan mission.

An earlier batch of wikileaks documents dealt with Afghanistan already.

 

Probably the most significant thing from the last few days was the rather quiet admission that there hasn't been any deaths of informants or such associated with the previous batch of leaks despite the dire assertions at the time.

[Humodour]

You know what really gives me the warm and fuzzies over this though? And it's got nothing to do with Iraq.

 

It's Chinese dissidents deciding to build their own leaks website to document Chinese government abuses. Now that is going to be powerful.

 

Although I have to question the Chinese founder's choice of pseudonym... they call him 'Deep Throat'.

 

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/artic...04851f6b44a.ad1

 

Do you seriously not know why his name is Deep Throat?

 

I thought that was pretty obvious.

 

Care to enlighten those of us not in the loop like you?

[Humodour]

Iraq, what a joke... they couldn't even be bothered executing an ethical war.

 

Maybe one day your generation will work out a way to fight a completely clean war, bereft of any human error or folly.

 

I know war is messy. But how messy is an open question which you have so deftly swept aside. Read what went on - there were clear orders from pretty high up the American chain of command to ignore the tortures and abuses committed by them and their allies - the Afghan police and army.

 

This is was a war which did not require some airy-fairy advanced civilisation to execute ethically. If the Americans had of seriously investigated abuses and prevented their Afghan counterparts from performing such abuses we wouldn't be having this discussion. So why did they permit and often encourage such atrocities?

[Orogun01]

Iraq, what a joke... they couldn't even be bothered executing an ethical war.

 

Maybe one day your generation will work out a way to fight a completely clean war, bereft of any human error or folly.

 

I know war is messy. But how messy is an open question which you have so deftly swept aside. Read what went on - there were clear orders from pretty high up the American chain of command to ignore the tortures and abuses committed by them and their allies - the Afghan police and army.

 

This is was a war which did not require some airy-fairy advanced civilisation to execute ethically. If the Americans had of seriously investigated abuses and prevented their Afghan counterparts from performing such abuses we wouldn't be having this discussion. So why did they permit and often encourage such atrocities?

Because is war and because it works.

[~Di]

First of all, a warning. Please don't take a newspaper's sensationalized, out-of-context version which was clearly designed to bash the US as gospel. Interpretation and context is the key, and it's a key that apparently some European media outlets have gleefully tossed away.

 

An example from another forum I frequent. The OP, a UK citizen living in Europe, openly dispises America and literally was chortling with outrage that went something like this: "FRAGO242 is a US military order, which was given to instruct US troops not to investigate or prevent war crimes in Iraq. It comes out of the latest WIKI Leaks documents.

 

It dispells the myth that we did something good in Iraq. We did not liberate the Iraqi people from the brutality of Saddam, we simply changed the source of their suffering. US troops stood and watched as men were tortured with electricity and beatings."

 

Then came a reply from someone quite knowledgeable of FRAGO242...and the context in which it was issued:

 

"This is the impact of Frago 242. A frago is a "fragmentary order" which summarises a complex requirement. This one, issued in June 2004, about a year after the invasion of Iraq, orders coalition troops not to investigate any breach of the laws of armed conflict, such as the abuse of detainees, unless it directly involves members of the coalition. Where the alleged abuse is committed by Iraqi on Iraqi, "only an initial report will be made

Edited October 25, 2010 by ~Di

[Moose]

Would I be right in thinking everything on wikileaks is anonymous and therefore unreliable?

[Humodour]

Would I be right in thinking everything on wikileaks is anonymous and therefore unreliable?

 

Wikileaks is not like wikipedia. There's so so much more scrutiny because people EXPECT to find secrets and insights. The fact that the reactions from governments are silence and "this shouldn't have been released!" or "that's a state secret!" are kind of a testament to their veracity.

[Moose]

Would it not be in a government's interest to not comment on rumour, regardless of whether those rumours are true or false?

[Gfted1]

You know what really gives me the warm and fuzzies over this though? And it's got nothing to do with Iraq.

 

It's Chinese dissidents deciding to build their own leaks website to document Chinese government abuses. Now that is going to be powerful.

 

Although I have to question the Chinese founder's choice of pseudonym... they call him 'Deep Throat'.

 

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/artic...04851f6b44a.ad1

 

Do you seriously not know why his name is Deep Throat?

 

I thought that was pretty obvious.

 

Care to enlighten those of us not in the loop like you?

 

 

Deep Throat was the code name given to the Watergate informant.

[Hurlshort]

I'm not really supportive of the Iraq war, but it's important to keep in mind that Hussein was a major douche. He was really asking for it.

[Meshugger]

The Iraqi was layers of bull**** stacked upon another. It will make this generation more cynical than the one before for many reasons, being:

 

1. The Realpolitik.

- Multiple nations had Iraq and its geographical position as a zone of interest. Russia and the EU had ties to the its industry and natural resources, and China as well. Those who were cut out of the loop with the US on top, saw an oppurtunity to shift the balance and took it. It was bold, cold and ruthless at the same time.

 

2. The war on terror doctrine.

- Global war against an idea, a method if you may. Treated as such, it will never be won. In worst case scenario, the defenders of democracy will fall and become the oppressors themselves.

 

3. The idea of enforced positivity.

- Bush and Blair were the most guilty of this. If you are the aggressor and want to force liberty and democracy on nation, it will never bear fruit. No, you cannot compare it to Germany and Japan after WWII. They were the aggressors, the allies were not.

 

4. Iraq being a threat.

- Saddam couldn't even give a budge against Iran in a 10 year long war. Then most of the army was destroyed in operation Desert Storm. Then another 10 years of embargo. The country was done, Saddam was done. The only thing left was the image of him being a supreme leader of a desert.

 

5. The humanitarian effort.

- It was a convenience. A surprising side effect. If Saddam would've been as democratic as Hosni Mubarak, no one would've cared how much of a tyrant he was.

 

What a joke, wikileaks or not.

Edited October 25, 2010 by Meshugger

[lord of flies]

What do you mean that the Iraq War "was" a disgrace?

Or perhaps you'll decide never to fight wars, whereupon you will be conquered.

I am definitely worried about the oncoming invasion of the United States by Iraq. :roll:

Am looking forward, with alacrity, to the day wikileaks finds a whistleblower from, say, the Iranian Revolutionary Guard.

"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them. "

- Eric Blair (AKA George Orwell)

[Thorton_AP]

"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them. "

- Eric Blair (AKA George Orwell)

 

This does appear to be a good motto for yourself. Bravo!

[I want teh kotor 3]

"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them. "

- Eric Blair (AKA George Orwell)

 

This does appear to be a good motto for yourself. Bravo!

 

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Edited October 25, 2010 by I want teh kotor 3

[Blarghagh]

You know what really gives me the warm and fuzzies over this though? And it's got nothing to do with Iraq.

 

It's Chinese dissidents deciding to build their own leaks website to document Chinese government abuses. Now that is going to be powerful.

 

Although I have to question the Chinese founder's choice of pseudonym... they call him 'Deep Throat'.

 

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/artic...04851f6b44a.ad1

 

I was talking to a Chinese immigrant lately. He lives in Canada now, but he moved from China to Australia originally. Then he left Australia because, his words, "Australia's worse than China".

 

I find it quite scary to hear that from someone who has lived in both places for many years. Maybe the western world needs to stop trying to save the poor asians everywhere and fix their own deep **** first.

[Calax]

You know what really gives me the warm and fuzzies over this though? And it's got nothing to do with Iraq.

 

It's Chinese dissidents deciding to build their own leaks website to document Chinese government abuses. Now that is going to be powerful.

 

Although I have to question the Chinese founder's choice of pseudonym... they call him 'Deep Throat'.

 

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/artic...04851f6b44a.ad1

 

I was talking to a Chinese immigrant lately. He lives in Canada now, but he moved from China to Australia originally. Then he left Australia because, his words, "Australia's worse than China".

 

I find it quite scary to hear that from someone who has lived in both places for many years. Maybe the western world needs to stop trying to save the poor asians everywhere and fix their own deep **** first.

Admittedly I don't know him that well, but my roommate (from shanghai) seems to not mind China. The other one from Xuzhou province is more outgoing and technically knowledgeable (to the point he was using internet proxies etc while still there.)

[Oblarg]

"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them. "

- Eric Blair (AKA George Orwell)

 

This does appear to be a good motto for yourself. Bravo!

 

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

When has LoF ever flat-out denied an atrocity by communist Russia, or refused to believe the the atrocity was bad? No, really, I'm curious - I've seen him rationalize atrocities, sure, but never deny them.