E for Everyone, except me

[Hurlshort]

Out of curiosity, what is the mean annual wage for a programmer in the gaming industry?

 

I believe most programmers, gaming or not, make between $80k and $120k.

[213374U]

Then why comment on the "immense weight" that modding contributes. If it works for you then fantastic. But that's neither here nor there when discussing the industry as a whole.

Because it does. Hello, Counter-Strike?

 

It's a fact that devs are making their games easier to mod, going so far as releasing SDKs for public use. Isn't that "the industry" at work?

 

The author complains that from his niche perspective, gaming no longer offers quality entertainment, because of economic reasons. Modding and indie productions are, I think, the only alternative to the extremely limited production targeted at niche market segments. He overlooked the modding aspect, and that's all I'm saying.

 

 

I assumed you had something of substance rather than "Hey, I like them." Unless you're concluding that because you like them, they therefore have a significant influence on the industry which the person writing the article overlooked.

No, no. What I'm saying is that there is certainly a way to get your fix other than playing the same old BG2 over and over. Granted, the piece referred to E3 so that's neither here nor there, but then why discuss indie projects? How big is their presence at E3 anyway?

 

 

I have never heard of it. I suspect most total conversions suffer a similar fate from the majority of people. Odo, the weight on the market is probably less immense than you originally indicated in your earlier post.

I'm not sure how much time you spend tracking (or even searching for) mods that might interest you. That you haven't heard about it doesn't mean much -- most mod projects don't have a dedicated PR department and rely on word of mouth. I'm sure that, if you play any online game regularly wherein a certain mod has become popular you'll have, at the very least, heard about it. The weight on the market is decidedly limited, but remember we're discussing niche interests, here. Edited July 12, 2010 by 213374U

[LadyCrimson]

So it's not that I've left videogames behind - videogames have left me behind. They've evolved, and I haven't...

 

I'm glad that I don't feel this way... or rather I look at the games from different angle. For me it always comes down to the simple fact - Is this game worth the price? It was that way in the early 80's and it's still that way. In the past, especially in early 90's there were more games worth the full price then I had time to money or buy. Nowadays only few games a year are worth the full price. Many games are worth something and some games are not even the worth to download or play 'em even if those games would be free.

I interpreted that particular authors comment to be about his taste in games, not just price, and how the style of games made now may be part of the reason he has a harder time finding games that suit his taste.

Like him, I have very distinct tastes in my gaming preferences, and the industry (perhaps because of his reasons listed) has slowly been evolving away from them, maybe because it's not profitable enough vs production cost risk...thus making me less interested video gaming as entertainment. Personal pricing-tolerance and a seeming drop in variety of games are two different things, imo.

[Thorton_AP]

Then why comment on the "immense weight" that modding contributes. If it works for you then fantastic. But that's neither here nor there when discussing the industry as a whole.

Because it does. Hello, Counter-Strike?

 

I don't believe anyone here said that the contributions simply don't exist. If you're mandate is to point out unique success stories, then I think your point loses merit.

 

It's a fact that devs are making their games easier to mod, going so far as releasing SDKs for public use. Isn't that "the industry" at work?

 

Some games are easy to mod. Others are not nearly as mod friendly. They're still successful. Typical "your mileage may vary" when dealing with amateur content. Especially in the wake of success stories like Counterstrike.

 

The author complains that from his niche perspective, gaming no longer offers quality entertainment, because of economic reasons. Modding and indie productions are, I think, the only alternative to the extremely limited production targeted at niche market segments. He overlooked the modding aspect, and that's all I'm saying.

 

The bad thing about modding is that if you don't own the game, they likelihood of you ever learning about a mod that appeals to your interests is even less likely. Unless the mod is Counterstrike, at which point you're no longer dealing from a niche perspective anymore.

 

 

I assumed you had something of substance rather than "Hey, I like them." Unless you're concluding that because you like them, they therefore have a significant influence on the industry which the person writing the article overlooked.

No, no. What I'm saying is that there is certainly a way to get your fix other than playing the same old BG2 over and over. Granted, the piece referred to E3 so that's neither here nor there, but then why discuss indie projects? How big is their presence at E3 anyway?

 

It's likely because he misses the days when he could walk into a retail store, and find 3-4 "niche" games right there on the shelf. Or the idea that a game franchise he once loved has become bastardized and irrelevant now.

 

 

I have never heard of it. I suspect most total conversions suffer a similar fate from the majority of people. Odo, the weight on the market is probably less immense than you originally indicated in your earlier post.

I'm not sure how much time you spend tracking (or even searching for) mods that might interest you. That you haven't heard about it doesn't mean much -- most mod projects don't have a dedicated PR department and rely on word of mouth.

Exactly.

 

I'm sure that, if you play any online game regularly wherein a certain mod has become popular you'll have, at the very least, heard about it. The weight on the market is decidedly limited, but remember we're discussing niche interests, here.

 

If the game doesn't initially appeal to you, then no mod that appeals to those niche interests are going to become easily aware of you. Never mind that, as you yourself allude to, the game is not actually online.

 

Should LadyCrimson go out and buy a game for $50-$60 with a hope that a mod comes out that actually satisfies her gaming interests? I don't think so.

Edited July 12, 2010 by Thorton_AP

[Malcador]

Out of curiosity, what is the mean annual wage for a programmer in the gaming industry?

 

I believe most programmers, gaming or not, make between $80k and $120k.

 

 

Huh, not here.

[Zoraptor]

I recently read that Jowood has invested 6 million euros in Arcania: A Gothic Tale. They need it to sell in the millions.

 

http://forum.jowood.com/showthread.php?t=169657

Arcania is also being funded by the same investment group that part funded NWN2. Whether that is included in the 6 million or not isn't clear from what I read, so it could actually be more than that.

 

I suspect JoWood needs to sell millions of copies because their financial position is dodgy rather than just to recoup investment because they should be in profit well short of millions of copies if that's the total cost.

[Meshugger]

Out of curiosity, what is the mean annual wage for a programmer in the gaming industry?

 

I believe most programmers, gaming or not, make between $80k and $120k.

 

I work as a solution expert for a multinational firm. I have an engineering degree and a science degree. I make a little less than a game tester (<32K), so i take that california is a lot more expensive than scandoland. I will now file for an application for an entry-level programmer in the gaming-industry

Edited July 13, 2010 by Meshugger

[Hurlshort]

Out of curiosity, what is the mean annual wage for a programmer in the gaming industry?

 

I believe most programmers, gaming or not, make between $80k and $120k.

 

 

Huh, not here.

 

Maybe I've been in Silicon Valley too long

[Gorth]

http://www.animationarena.com/video-game-salary.html

 

They seem right based on what I know, and have seen.

These numbers have to include Chinese software companies as well as outsourced Indian software support developers in the average?

[Hurlshort]

http://www.animationarena.com/video-game-salary.html

 

They seem right based on what I know, and have seen.

These numbers have to include Chinese software companies as well as outsourced Indian software support developers in the average?

 

I would say they are based solely on US numbers, actually.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Considering the potential profits, it's not really surprising that people are sinking millions upon millions into development.

 

Modern Warfare 2 sold more than $550 million worth of copies in the first 5 days, eclipsing all movies and GTA IV which held the previous record.

That's the game industry for you, a few franchises make huge money, everyone else is struggling at best.

 

Out of curiosity, what is the mean annual wage for a programmer in the gaming industry?

 

There's no answer for that. It all depends on location and job position. For example it's really pricey to live in California area, less in Texas, still less in UK, even less in Finland (Max Payne, Alan Wake developers Remedy or Flatout developer Bugbear) and still less in Poland (The Witcher developers CDproject). Entry level programmer can barely pay his rent and buy food while Lead Progammer get big bucks.

 

For example the salaries in Nightshapes linked list are way too high. If entry level progammer would ask 50k here in Finland, he'd end up with the permanent smile on his face in the nearest river.

Actually Texas is a pretty cheap place to live, I believe that applies internationally among first world countries as well.

Edited July 13, 2010 by Wrath of Dagon

[213374U]

I don't believe anyone here said that the contributions simply don't exist. If you're mandate is to point out unique success stories, then I think your point loses merit.

Yeah, every single case I bring up, you can wave your hand and dismiss as a "unique success story". But you know what, you are right. I don't need Counter-Strike, as that's an example of a mod becoming bigger than its parent game... and becoming a mainstream title in the process. That is not the kind of example I should have been looking for.

 

Want definite proof of how big the modding scene is? Go to any given major modding site, take a look at the download numbers. Not every game has a modding community that big or that active, but then again, games are a dime a dozen today.

 

 

Some games are easy to mod. Others are not nearly as mod friendly. They're still successful. Typical "your mileage may vary" when dealing with amateur content. Especially in the wake of success stories like Counterstrike.

No, I don't believe I said easily moddable games are necessarily more successful, or that the contrary applies either. Either you misunderstand or are misrepresenting me.

 

However, it is a fact that developers are aware of the potential in mods, and often even encourage it. I guess both NWN games are "unique success stories" too, as is Oblivion?

 

 

The bad thing about modding is that if you don't own the game, they likelihood of you ever learning about a mod that appeals to your interests is even less likely.

Yes, well. For the average price of mods ($0 USD), I don't think this is something you can complain about with a straight face. This is linked to the point you made further down about spending $60 on a game you aren't interested in. Well, duh. Who buys a game in which they have no interest whatsoever? If wargaming in the Hellenistic period doesn't interest you, you aren't going to hear about RTR... but then RTW won't particularly attract you either.

 

If today no game does anything for you, not even as far as themes are concerned, then maybe it's time to find another hobby. I mean this in the sense that game production has multiplied in the last two decades, and all genres are covered. If you can't find anything that strikes your fancy at all, maybe it's you who has the problem, and not the world. There are also sites dedicated to modding news you can follow.

 

The argument isn't that mods are meant to make or break a sale (and I'd appreciate you keeping the strawmanning to a minimum here), but that they can insuflate new life into a game you'd otherwise play maybe just once or twice, placing it right up there with any of those oldies that you loved so much. Not to mention that modding processes are much easier to influence than standard development projects, increasing the likelihood that a mod will be suited to your tastes.

 

But yeah, "stultification", indeed. Heh.

 

 

It's likely because he misses the days when he could walk into a retail store, and find 3-4 "niche" games right there on the shelf. Or the idea that a game franchise he once loved has become bastardized and irrelevant now.

Well, I miss the days when I spent all day being carried around on a stroller, suckling a teat when I wasn't napping. Good times. But I think I'd draw quite a bit of flak if I wrote a piece complaining about my rotten luck.

 

Times change. If you don't change along, things are going to get tougher for you. Nothing wrong with sticking to one's guns, but this sounds a bit like the guy wants to have his cake and eat it, in the sense that he doesn't want to do any work looking for content that may appeal to his preferences. This is especially jarring considering that he explains that he doesn't have any other hobbies, and that lack of time isn't an issue for him.

Edited July 13, 2010 by 213374U

[Luckmann]

I now want a "E for Endangered" T-shirt.

[WorstUsernameEver]

I recently read that Jowood has invested 6 million euros in Arcania: A Gothic Tale. They need it to sell in the millions.

 

http://forum.jowood.com/showthread.php?t=169657

Arcania is also being funded by the same investment group that part funded NWN2. Whether that is included in the 6 million or not isn't clear from what I read, so it could actually be more than that.

 

I suspect JoWood needs to sell millions of copies because their financial position is dodgy rather than just to recoup investment because they should be in profit well short of millions of copies if that's the total cost.

 

That's just development costs though, it doesn't take marketing into account.

Still, yeah, I don't honestly see how that would need millions of copies.

[Thorton_AP]

Well, I miss the days when I spent all day being carried around on a stroller, suckling a teat when I wasn't napping. Good times. But I think I'd draw quite a bit of flak if I wrote a piece complaining about my rotten luck.

 

Cool, this discussion is over then.

Edited July 13, 2010 by Thorton_AP

[Ausir]

Mods less and less of an influence on the market, given that the PC is less and less important in the market compared to the consoles, sadly.

[Mamoulian War]

Mods less and less of an influence on the market, given that the PC is less and less important in the market compared to the consoles, sadly.

 

Little Big Planet, Mod Nation Racer and Unreal Tournament 3 would like to say something different about modding on consoles...

[Ausir]

That's just a couple of titles compared to how many games tend to be moddable on the PC, and they're mostly limited to extra levels, nothing to the extent of major PC mods. And the mods for the few console games that have them are always moderated by the publishers.

Edited July 15, 2010 by Ausir

[Nepenthe]

Out of curiosity, what is the mean annual wage for a programmer in the gaming industry?

 

There's no answer for that. It all depends on location and job position. For example it's really pricey to live in California area, less in Texas, still less in UK, even less in Finland (Max Payne, Alan Wake developers Remedy or Flatout developer Bugbear) and still less in Poland (The Witcher developers CDproject). Entry level programmer can barely pay his rent and buy food while Lead Progammer get big bucks.

 

For example the salaries in Nightshapes linked list are way too high. If entry level progammer would ask 50k here in Finland, he'd end up with the permanent smile on his face in the nearest river.

 

I'm going to challenge the cheapness of living in Finland. Wages are probably smaller than in the UK, but it's more related to the traditionally poor wages of the educated workforce than it being comparably cheaper.

[Niten_Ryu]

I'm going to challenge the cheapness of living in Finland. Wages are probably smaller than in the UK, but it's more related to the traditionally poor wages of the educated workforce than it being comparably cheaper.

 

No, I didn't talk about cheapness of living in Finland. Actually prices in greater Helsinki area are out of control and out of reach for the common workforce. I mean we have high taxes, expensive food, low wages. Thus it's cheaper to develop something in Finland then in UK. We have codeslaves, they don't

[Nihilus5078]

What would they mean by a premium video game? Something like World or Warcraft or Halo?

[Nepenthe]

I'm going to challenge the cheapness of living in Finland. Wages are probably smaller than in the UK, but it's more related to the traditionally poor wages of the educated workforce than it being comparably cheaper.

 

No, I didn't talk about cheapness of living in Finland. Actually prices in greater Helsinki area are out of control and out of reach for the common workforce. I mean we have high taxes, expensive food, low wages. Thus it's cheaper to develop something in Finland then in UK. We have codeslaves, they don't

 

And don't get me started on the cost of housing, I could get a nice view to the Thames on the Docklands for what they ask of some old duplex with a bunch of renovations on the way.

[Azdeus]

Wow, I had no idea, and am a bit sceptical, that games today cost $25,000,000 to make! That sounds absurd.

 

I just spotted this article

Activision Bets Big on PC Game; Company Has Spent More Than $100 Million Developing 'Starcraft' Sequel

 

Actizzard is a big spender. Don't worry though, they will regain all that money - and some more - once you bought the three main campaigns and whatever other DLC's they plan for you to buy.

Their CEO probably has some awesome plans to squeeze every nickle and dime out of your pocket I'm sure. Can't even type his name in without the censorship bot kicking in.

[Niten_Ryu]

Like Modern Warfare 2, Starcraft 2 (first campaign and multiplayer) will cost $60. But unlike Modern Warfare 2, Starcraft 2 is PC exclusive game thus there's no license fee to the console manufacturers. So usual $17 + $12 from no license fees + $10 for higher then normal price. That's $39 for every unit sold. With 100 million budget that'd mean that'd mean bit over 2,5 million units. Even if the game is complite garbage, ActiBlizzard will get that back even before the word of mouth hit the streets. Since we know by very long beta that game ain't total trash, will have three separate games (multiplayer part already finished and singleplayer campaigns don't need as long beta time) and Activisions agressive price policies, they are going to get nice profit outta Starcraft 2.

[Morgoth]

100 million USD? Haha, they get that income from a single month of Wow subscription fees.

 

That's peanuts for Blizzard.