Azdeus Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 (edited) I went to Redcliffe first in my game. I had no idea that I could count on a different plot area to save Connor while I had to deal with it. The unfortunate thing is that they don't make you choose there (as they should have), but unless you've already been to the Mage Tower, it's a pretty baffling roleplaying decision to not do something. Pretty much metagaming IMO. I wouldn't be surprised if people typically clear out an area before moving on to the next, if they can. I did the same in Alpha Protocol as well. One of the first things that you're told is that you need to search for Allies, including some of wich happens to be the mages in the Tower. I did'nt meta-game, I was hoping for them to actually have any sort of consequence for it that would give me that lovely feeling of regret. Wich I did'nt get ofcourse. Edited July 22, 2010 by Azdeus Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amentep Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 (edited) Wait... there's a consequence for going to the mages circle? I never noticed 'anything', and you have to go to the mages circle sooner or later anyway so it does'nt really take any extra time. And it's not like the kid murders half of his own family due to you taking the slow way. I went to Redcliffe first in my game. I had no idea that I could count on a different plot area to save Connor while I had to deal with it. The unfortunate thing is that they don't make you choose there (as they should have), but unless you've already been to the Mage Tower, it's a pretty baffling roleplaying decision to not do something. Pretty much metagaming IMO. I wouldn't be surprised if people typically clear out an area before moving on to the next, if they can. I did the same in Alpha Protocol as well. I went to Redcliffe first, but somehow came up with the idea of getting the Mage's help (don't remember exact convo). Since I didn't like the two choices given (kill the kid, kill the wife to save the kid), I went with the third option. When I got to the Mage's tower I had to clear it and I was really worried that I'd end up taking too long and the kid would have killed everyone by the time I got back. (IE if you clear the Mage tower first the mages will help you and save the kid, but if you do it second then the kid kills everyone because of the time taken to clear the tower). Made the whole thing kinda interesting, not knowing. Edited July 22, 2010 by Amentep I cannot - yet I must. How do you calculate that? At what point on the graph do "must" and "cannot" meet? Yet I must - but I cannot! ~ Ro-Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azdeus Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 If you ask if there is no other way, I think someone - possibly Morrigan or the Bloodmage - informs you that it's possible that the mages circle can help. And at the same time dissapointing as hell, when you realised there was nothing to worry about. Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorton_AP Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 One of the first things that you're told is that you need to search for Allies, including some of wich happens to be the mages in the Tower. I did'nt meta-game, I was hoping for them to actually have any sort of consequence for it that would give me that lovely feeling of regret. Wich I did'nt get ofcourse. If you went to the Mage Circle first, then you went to the Mage Circle first. If you don't know about them, and decided to still walk away from Connor in the hopes of finding something else, I'd say you bought into a standard RPG convention of "There's a good chance nothing will happen if I don't do anything right now." I.e. metagamed based on your previous experience with RPGs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amentep Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 I was happy that I saved the kid and the wife. Would have thought it was cool if the "order" mattered though (like how after the first completed section Lothering disappears, or the advancing horde on the minimap, it'd have been neat to see certain quests resolve differently depending on order - like in this case only being able to save the kid if you'd saved the Mages prior to going into Redwall). I cannot - yet I must. How do you calculate that? At what point on the graph do "must" and "cannot" meet? Yet I must - but I cannot! ~ Ro-Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorton_AP Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 Yeah I actually like when choice isn't actually available a lot of the times in RPGs. You go to a completely different person, and they'll consider it a positive that you weren't railroaded into something bad happening if you didn't go to the Mage's Circle first though. /shrug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azdeus Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 (edited) If you went to the Mage Circle first, then you went to the Mage Circle first. If you don't know about them, and decided to still walk away from Connor in the hopes of finding something else, I'd say you bought into a standard RPG convention of "There's a good chance nothing will happen if I don't do anything right now." I.e. metagamed based on your previous experience with RPGs. You do know about the Mages Circle from the beginning of the game, or atleast directly after Ostagar. And no, that's not really metagaming if you're given the options to actually do so through ingame means. And I was expecting them to punish me in some way - but my character would much rather not kill anyone, being a little goody-twoshoes. Would have thought it was cool if the "order" mattered though (like how after the first completed section Lothering disappears, or the advancing horde on the minimap, it'd have been neat to see certain quests resolve differently depending on order - like in this case only being able to save the kid if you'd saved the Mages prior to going into Redwall). Agreed, or rather that it had any determinable impact. Edited July 22, 2010 by Azdeus Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nepenthe Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 I think (agree?) that the only real tough decisions in the game are the two orzammar ones, with the king question probaly the least morally black and white in the game.* *and even then it's the choice between and ineffectual well-meaning traditionalist and a ruthless reforming dictator. You're a cheery wee bugger, Nep. Have I ever said that? Reapercussions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azdeus Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 Ruthless ****-tater any day of the week. Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorton_AP Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 You do know about the Mages Circle from the beginning of the game, or atleast directly after Ostagar. And no, that's not really metagaming if you're given the options to actually do so through ingame means. Given that it seems (since Amentep also brought it up) you are cued about potentially seeking help from the Mage Circle during your interactions with Connor, I retract my previous statement. From a personal roleplaying point of view, my character felt he didn't have the time, so ultimately I was satisfied with the outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azdeus Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 *Nods* While my character felt it was worth the risk to find a better solution. My main gripe with it, is that now I don't particularly feel any need to go any other way when doing the quest, since I don't have any real motivation to see what's on the 'other' side so to speak. Takes away the replay value. Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 I think (agree?) that the only real tough decisions in the game are the two orzammar ones, with the king question probaly the least morally black and white in the game.* *and even then it's the choice between and ineffectual well-meaning traditionalist and a ruthless reforming dictator. gets a little more clear-cut (morally) if you played a dwarf noble origin. as for redcliff, the game developers sends you some pretty strong signals that redcliff is your best starting point following lothering. al make a couple comments 'bout how you should start in redcliff that would seem to be the typical crpg blunt force trauma method for guiding a character to the optimal destination. the only reason Gromnir went to the mage tower first is 'cause previous to playing the game we had read at the bio site that wynne were a spirit healer, and we assumed she would be available at the mage tower. ... having played the game multiple times, we wonders why a developer would want a player to attempt redcliff first. am given to understand that the redcliff battles is watered-down on the console, but am still dubious 'bout the choice o' redcliff being first even for the console folks. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 (edited) "I've wondered for some time whether Flemeth takes over Morrigan by the end of the game regardless of your actions, to be honest." I hoep not. "having played the game multiple times, we wonders why a developer would want a player to attempt redcliff first." Because, along with the mage tower, it's by far one of the two easiest areas of the allie quests. L0L Zombies L0L L0L Doggies LOL As for the tower-redcliff quest connection, you only get the option to get the mages' help if you don't wipe them out out during that quest so if you are anti magi you are out lof luck in regards to that quest. C&C, punks, C&C. Edited July 22, 2010 by Volourn DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigranes Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 The only good C&C about the Redcliffe decision is one Volo describes - if you wiped out the mages before, then hell, you don't get their help at Redcliffe. Otherwise it's a boring nobrainer. If you didn't go to the mages tower first, you still get the solution to ask them - and despite everyone whining about time, you know, the demon possessed boy will wait days and weeks for you to do your tower romp. Missed opportunity - it would have been very interesting if the order in which you went to each place mattered that way, and also changed the situation of each place a bit. (e.g. go to Redcliffe last, then the boy's condition is so bad that you can't ask the circle for help anyway; go to the mages tower last, then Wynne is alive but most of the kiddies she was protecting are dead; etc.) And of course, unless you are fooled by the game's talk of urgency and think going to the mages is a risk, if you carefully consider each of the 3 options, the mages option really is by far the best option practically and morally. You don't do anything wrong, you save everyone, nothing is lost. So in fact it is not a grey decision - there is a clear best solution that the game PRETENDS has a nonexistent risk to it, a ruse that you might or might not fall for. Decisions are hard decisions and good dilemmas when (a) every option has its own advantage and disadvantage that are played out in a meaningful way, and (b) no option is clearly the best or worst option. DAO did (a) pretty well, sometimes, but for (b), yeah, Orzammar was the only one that really made you hesitate. Let's Play: Icewind Dale Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Icewind Dale II Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Divinity II (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG1 (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG2 (In Progress) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 Don't forget the Redcliffe also had another decision to make as well once you entered the fade that could screw up your plans as the Sexxy demmon offers you awards to let her go. Unless you are rle-playing a goody two shoes, that could be a nice decision with potential C&C. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 vol should takes a quick quiz: is a statement more or less credible if the author includes "LOL" four or more times in one line o' text? vol played the watered-down console version... and we suspect he played on a less difficult level than Gromnir. consoleized version sends smaller version o' mobs, and redcliff difficulty is linked to extreme long mob-laden battles, potentially with the aid o' only 1 mage who may (or may not) have access to a single healing spell... and possibly 0 lyrium potions. 'course vol is just repeating the same tired nonsense at this point, and we ain't particularly feeling likes following his lead. 'course, with respec, or as a mage pc, then the situation is considerably different... and am also assuming that the player ain't a nutter. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigranes Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 You're right Volo, there is a twist with the demon at the end - it is a nice touch to offer that final temptation, especially because whereas the initial decision is debated on moral lines, the demon gets right to the point and offers you immediate, tangible rewards in the gameworld. I think generally DAO C&C had a good structure and interesting things peppered across, but I don't think they had an overriding philosophy of 'have no one best decision' - and suffered for it. Also, please, not the Redcliffe debate again :spam: Let's Play: Icewind Dale Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Icewind Dale II Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Divinity II (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG1 (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG2 (In Progress) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funcroc Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 IGN combat preview Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monte Carlo Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 From that preview: The title screen already has a "Downloadable Content" option Yay! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorton_AP Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 We also got to see the new conversation system. Dialogue has been simplified so that you only have up to three choices. I'm willing to bet the conversations will have the standard 6 options (well, probably 5 and investigate) much like Mass Effect does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigranes Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 ME has 6? Everything I've seen leads me to believe you rarely get more than 3. Not a big issue since Bioware writing rarely uses more than that, anyway - and Dragon Age could certainly cut down on word filler. The console combat sounds more like KOTOR/ME - i.e. control one person at a time, generally rely on the AI, and forgo having strategic control of the entire party at all times. Don't mind as long as it's not that way on the PC... Let's Play: Icewind Dale Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Icewind Dale II Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Divinity II (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG1 (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG2 (In Progress) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorton_AP Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 They typically had 3 (I would say almost always had 3, since top right was typically friendly, right was neutral, and bottom right was aggressive), with the occasional 4th and sometimes 5th (usually dependent on whether or not you had sufficient renegade/paragon, but not always). This doesn't include the investigate options, which often had all 5 options available, though probably fairly typically between 3-5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nepenthe Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 vol should takes a quick quiz: is a statement more or less credible if the author includes "LOL" four or more times in one line o' text? vol played the watered-down console version... and we suspect he played on a less difficult level than Gromnir. consoleized version sends smaller version o' mobs, and redcliff difficulty is linked to extreme long mob-laden battles, potentially with the aid o' only 1 mage who may (or may not) have access to a single healing spell... and possibly 0 lyrium potions. 'course vol is just repeating the same tired nonsense at this point, and we ain't particularly feeling likes following his lead. 'course, with respec, or as a mage pc, then the situation is considerably different... and am also assuming that the player ain't a nutter. HA! Good Fun! Having played both versions, I think you're overstating the differences between the systems. Of course, I haven't been 1:1 comparing different battles, but the differences are only in battles with massive spawns (a few of the wolf battles, probably redcliffe). I admit to playing PC on easy, as I just wanted to have a nice, importeable character for DA2, and I'm inclined to say that, even with me being more experienced, console "normal" is definitely harder. PC easy seemed to limit redcliffe spawns in the same way as console normal did (feeding out similarily sized groups), but I can't comment for higher difficulties. If I ever actually want to replay the game, I might. You're a cheery wee bugger, Nep. Have I ever said that? Reapercussions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flouride Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 ****, me. That IGN Combat Preview is baaaaaaaad. Hate the living, love the dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nepenthe Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 ****, me. That IGN Combat Preview is baaaaaaaad. If you mean it's written poorly and by an apparent idiot so as to be completely worthless, I agree. You're a cheery wee bugger, Nep. Have I ever said that? Reapercussions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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