Espionage RPG?

[Mountainface]

I'll just get on with it quickly, shall I?

 

First of all, this game is branded as an Espionage RPG. What are the first things we know about Espionage:

 

1. Working undercover to dig out important information from governments, corporations etc.

 

2. Do not get detected while trying to infiltrate the building in question.

 

3. If you have to take someone out, knock them out or use silenced weaponry and dispose of the body.

 

4. Avoid confrontation.

 

 

The main problems with Alpha Protocol, it is nothing of the above.

You are playing a character whoms main objective is to

stop a new World War by preventing missiles to launch

, now that's really espionage-like.

 

Not getting detected? There are "forced envounters" at least once on each course! It's not much of an espionage if you're getting caught doing it all the time. "Oops, someone conveniently discovered that you entered the main computer you just hacked.." with two strings of code.

 

Why shouldn't Mike be able to drag bodies away? If I were a stealth operative I wouldn't litter my way with corpses and let them lying there to show as if I begged for attention.

If a guard would notice a body he should at least warn the entire building that an intruder is inside and force a lockdown, which doesn't happen in Alpha Protocol.

 

There are a lot of flaws in Alpha Protocol that revolves around the actual combat, as for most times where I have thought to myself: "Even I could shoot better than him."

My Mike was trained in Pistols and Stealth, but in these forced encounters I had to fire my handgun at an enemy from ten yards away, point blank in his torso and I had to empty two clips two down him. (Took my time aiming.)

 

This game is trying too hard to be Jack Bauer, James Bond and Jason Bourne all at the same time which we can clearly see in the dialogue choices as well as the combat options.

There isn't much love for a James Bond character though in play style, whereas you can't complete a level completely based on stealth alone.

 

Some of those encounters for example was a certain place, where you had to steal certain information. I managed to sneak past all the guards without a fuss (Recruit, Hard), stole the information and headed back out to escape.

When I reached the exit I immediatly encountered a person with two goonies that wanted a fight and I couldn't run from it.

Why shouldn't a spy just turn and run the other direction for an alternate exit when outnumbered?

 

During that fight I had to retry thirty-four times, since the only cover I got was a metre wide cupboard which Mike's body barely fit behind.

The enemies had a large gambling table, two other large tables, two wardrobes and while hiding behind them they occasionally threw semtex grenades (a'la MW2 style) at me.

 

There were another encounter where I had to help defend a VIP from a building, he told me to go off and do a task, when I got back he had gone to the front courtyard by himself.

I left the building in a way that I was on a rooftop overlooking the courtyard, the VIP was trying to pick off eight well-armed soldiers with only a handgun.

His only cover was the short wall of a flowerbed, where he hid on the left side of. He did not hide -behind- the flowerbed, but on the side, so that he was in line of fire 80% of the time.

 

I gave up after 40 tries with variable approaches.

 

First of all: Why would he exit through the front door when these soldiers came barging in through there just a couple of minutes ago?

Second: Why shouldn't hide more appropriately?

Third: How am I supposed to defend him against those odds when the soldiers instantly spawn again from three directions?

 

Alpha Protocol will punish you for trying to play by it's selected genre which is Stealth, if you are playing a stealth-based character then you are going to have a real hard punch in the stomach during these forced encounters.

 

 

 

Summery:

 

Alpha Protocol is the result of a Project Lead and a Publisher that is too tense on their reins over the developers.

It's really fallen over the "espionage" part since you 'have' to fight at least one large battle royale before escaping and when there is no downside to being discovered.

The boss encounters are really overpowering if you want to play a stealth-based character.

 

If the Project Lead would concentrate on getting the departments to communicate instead of micromanaging everything this game could've gone so much further. It's such a shame to see so much potential being wasted on bad planning.

 

The publishers should let the developers do their work as well, there are too many publishers steering the games to the depths of the abyss by trying to control them too much.

 

-Mountainface

Edited June 18, 2010 by Mountainface

[Orchomene]

Spy game =/= stealth game. Spying is more about intelligence work than stealth work.

But of course, it's up to you if you don't like the game, even if you shouldn't be surprised to miss your target if you develop a stealth character rather than a firearm one.

Also, perhaps you should play on normal if the game is too hard for you on hard. It's not a shame to play on normal difficulty.

[Mountainface]

Spy game =/= stealth game. Spying is more about intelligence work than stealth work.

 

Which it doesn't really execute with such 'finesse' that it actually should require.

Why would this game reward more XP for letting people live than fusing the wallpaper with their spinal fluids?

 

But of course, it's up to you if you don't like the game, even if you shouldn't be surprised to miss your target if you develop a stealth character rather than a firearm one.

 

I had equally much talents in Pistols as in Stealth, the firearms are heavily underweight during the unavoidable confrontations.

I for one know that even if I am no pro at firing handguns I should be able to hit my target if I aim carefully for a second on a person that is barely 20 feet away from me.

 

Also, perhaps you should play on normal if the game is too hard for you on hard. It's not a shame to play on normal difficulty.

 

It's not a question of shame, it's a principle. If a game is so poorly balanced from unfinished work or bugs so that Hard difficulty is almost impossible to finish, then something needs fixing.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Mountainface

[Raithe]

Hm, well in several playthroughs now, i've had various weapon skills, and when I did the stealth & pistol playthrough I had none of those problems you've complained about.. aimed shots within the right distance would easily take enemies down. Sure, if it wasn't a headshot you'd normally need 2 or 3 on the torso but they'd go down.

 

The Moscow Embassy ending sequence took me about 4 attempts before I developed the knack for it, but it's not that horrible.

[Mountainface]

The Moscow Embassy ending sequence took me about 4 attempts before I developed the knack for it, but it's not that horrible.

 

Well good for you, did you play as Recruit and on Hard difficulty? Otherwise the VIP could be bugged for that certain difficulty.

Also, did you go out through the front door or the side entrance on the roof?

[Tigranes]

If you play on Recruit and Hard, why are you complaining it's too difficult?

 

Anyway, I've done it on those settings, AP is one of thoes games where once you work out a strategy any challenge becomes doable.

 

It's not a question of shame, it's a principle. If a game is so poorly balanced from unfinished work or bugs so that Hard difficulty is almost impossible to finish, then something needs fixing.

 

Yes, the dozens of us on the forums who have finished Hard quite easily must be gaming Gods. That must be the only explanation?

 

You finding a particular challenge excruciating has more to do with getting used to the game and finding the right strategy. It's always the people's extinct to blame the game first, though.

[Mountainface]

If you play on Recruit and Hard, why are you complaining it's too difficult?

 

Anyway, I've done it on those settings, AP is one of thoes games where once you work out a strategy any challenge becomes doable.

 

Is that the strategy you were talking about? See where the VIP is "hidden"?

 

Yes, the dozens of us on the forums who have finished Hard quite easily must be gaming Gods. That must be the only explanation?

Cool story bro

You finding a particular challenge excruciating has more to do with getting used to the game and finding the right strategy. It's always the people's extinct to blame the game first, though.

If the VIP would act like a person with common sense it wouldn't be a problem, the main problem here isn't stealth being pushed aside, but the friendly AI acting like headless chickens.

 

Also, what would be the strategy in question?

Run 'n' Gun like the rest of the power armored space marines?

Edited June 18, 2010 by Mountainface

[Orchomene]

I have to admit that on normal, I had some difficulty to finish the first playthrough because I have not very good eye-hand coordiantions. But it was doable.

I would not even attempt to do it on hard recruit, for sure. But it's not really a problem. I'd rather have it this way than finding it too easy on hard difficulty.

[Hassat Hunter]

Anyway, I've done it on those settings, AP is one of thoes games where once you work out a strategy any challenge becomes doable.

 

Is that the strategy you were talking about? See where the VIP is "hidden"?

Maybe you should take care of the G-22 on the left then? He's pretty safe from the rest.

 

It is a generally good spot, as most enemies do come from the opposing side. More during VCI than G-22, but still, most of them. Your spot would leave him exposed too to the ones coming from the entrance, which generally, are more opponents.

 

I am not seeing the major flaw... but hey, whatever.

[Mountainface]

I am not seeing the major flaw... but hey, whatever.

I already tried that, but he's so far out on the edge that the soldiers from the alley entrance will have immediate line of sight to him.

The soldiers on the opposite side of the alley will eventually have run around Surkov and gunned him down from behind.

Also if I would place myself on that side, I wouldn't be able to fire at the soldier on top of the roof infront of him to the left.

 

With the talents I have chosen I can't take down the guards in such a fast pace before he dies.

[Hassat Hunter]

What talents do you have?

 

Also... gadgets. Nothing better to kill fast then a well-placed grenade...

[Alpha]

AP is a spionage game better than MGS and SC. The only that i really felt was really good about spionage was spy fiction.

[Orogun01]

I am not seeing the major flaw... but hey, whatever.

I already tried that, but he's so far out on the edge that the soldiers from the alley entrance will have immediate line of sight to him.

The soldiers on the opposite side of the alley will eventually have run around Surkov and gunned him down from behind.

Also if I would place myself on that side, I wouldn't be able to fire at the soldier on top of the roof infront of him to the left.

 

With the talents I have chosen I can't take down the guards in such a fast pace before he dies.

Had the same trouble on my first playthrough. As soon as you come out the door and all the guys line up chain shot, the focus on all the guys on the left, assault rifle and grenades work wonders. Then it just becomes a game of killing as many as you can, once you meet the check the conversation will start, so focus on the weakest ones. BTW, this should be on the spoiler section.

[Thorton_AP]

If you're playing as a stealth based character, saving the guy in the alley is easy as you just go Shadow Op and take them all down.

 

What I am seeing here is "Playing the game on hard is too hard" for some people. I suspect the level of play balance on the other difficulty levels is either not present, or the game is just too difficult for some people while on that setting.

[Fallen Ghost]

This game has the worst AI I've seen in an RPG......in some areas the enemies are literally surrounding the room facing the walls and I can sit in the center of the room all day....they'd never know. Then in Surkov's case....he just likes to stay out in the open and absorb as many bullets as he can as enemies spawn all around him. Then the plot holes and the bugs and all the rest....yeah it's pretty bad until you get used to the work-arounds which may not be worth your time.

[Oner]

You haven't played many RPGs then.

[Fallen Ghost]

You haven't played many RPGs then.

 

I've played all major RPGs since KotOR(2003) and none have such a bad AI, a bad tutorial or nearly as many balance issues.

[Hassat Hunter]

Balance issues?

 

KOTOR, KOTOR2, Dragon Age: Origins, hell even ME2 had some overpowered skills and totally useless ones.

 

Bad AI?

 

Ever had ammo-overwrite frenzy in ME2? Or "Let's put up my shields I don't need again" making useful skills unusable?

Hell, KOTOR2's teammate commands didn't even work properly... besides aggressive and Jedi Support. 'Nuff said.

 

Bad Tutorial?

You mean to say the Endar Spire or Peragus are the best parts of the game in the KOTORs? Don't make me laugh.

 

None of them are bad games though, but they certainly had similar flaws to AP.

[Fallen Ghost]

The minor issues encountered in all the games you mentioned fade away like tiny little ants next to an elephant when compared to the bad AI and balance issues of Alpha Protocol.

[Hassat Hunter]

KOTOR1 and KOTOR2 have Force Lightning. It makes Chain Shot peanuts.

Talk about DAO: Mages?

 

As for AI, in ME2 I wouldn't pick an AI teammember if he got a shield skill at all. If actually skills make teammembers useless, something is seriously wrong there...

Edited June 18, 2010 by Hassat Hunter

[unskilled-]

Balance issues?

 

KOTOR, KOTOR2, Dragon Age: Origins, hell even ME2 had some overpowered skills and totally useless ones.

 

Bad AI?

 

Ever had ammo-overwrite frenzy in ME2? Or "Let's put up my shields I don't need again" making useful skills unusable?

Hell, KOTOR2's teammate commands didn't even work properly... besides aggressive and Jedi Support. 'Nuff said.

 

Bad Tutorial?

You mean to say the Endar Spire or Peragus are the best parts of the game in the KOTORs? Don't make me laugh.

 

None of them are bad games though, but they certainly had similar flaws to AP.

 

The music makes Endar Spire feel much more then a tutuorial level! (finish KOTOR few days ago, wanting KOTOR2 :|)

 

I don't know why people are banging the AI, cause its pretty solid if you don't go overboard using the shadow operative and then taking out everybody in a room while stealthed.. cause that just makes it look bad!

[Zoraptor]

I did the Surkov mission yesterday, hard, recruit. Bought the sniper rifle, got to protect Surkov part, used rifle, eight shots, ~thirty seconds, mission accomplished. I failed it once in my first play through, when I had the sniper rifle fully zoomed in from the start and forgot how to zoom out.

 

On tutorials, they are poor almost without exception. I'd actually rate APs as one of the better ones- it's relatively short and much of it is skipable if you want, you get feedback on how well you've done, get introduced to some of the things which will be important and if you do well enough you can get XP/ info/ money etc as a bonus.

[Sannom]

Also, what would be the strategy in question?

Run 'n' Gun like the rest of the power armored space marines?

 

After failing I don't know many times at this mission, I did the only thing reasonnable : reloaded my last safe-house, because it was obvious I was ill-equipped, and restarted the mission.

 

My strategy (Pistols, Stealth and Sabotage) was this I think :

- first, get out by the main door. I think I used a mix of Shadow Operative and Chain Shot (tranquilizing rounds, head-shots) to take down the nearest enemies.

- second, I trapped the gaps between the statue and each of the little garden blocks with shocktraps. My strategy was to keep the enemies from Surkov. I was assured that those that would get past me would be incapacitated by the traps.

- third, flashbangs. Nuff' said. Those things have huge radius, I threw two of them on the biggest groups at two separate occasions, ran to them and knocked them all out with takedowns.

 

Really, that mission was frustrating the first time. But with inside knowledge and better preparation, it was actually fun!

[Tigranes]

Exactly. Constructive criticism is fine - I think it's silly that Surkov doesn't take proper cover, as well. But the OP's criticism is at its heart a frustrated tantrum about why he can't beat the mission.

 

You don't have to be a run and gunner to beat that part easily. However, being a spy on the run means you're often forced into situations that you would ideally like to avoid. Seriously. You're a spy. You're not an office worker. You don't have the luxury of taking everything on when you want how you want.

 

Everyone complaining " i don't get to play a real spy" need to look at a James Bond movie and ask themselves - does James Bond get to do everything when he wants how he wants? Or does he get forced into highly dangerous and exposed situations?

[unskilled-]

I was able to beat surkov's mission on my first playthrough as a stealth/martial arts expert. Most of the time I was running at enemies then proceeding to beat them down, only when I was near death and waiting for my armor to recover did I whip out my AR and start shooting down enemies (no points put into it).

 

Second playthrough I smartened up and brought the sniper rifle and it was easy as pie. As for Surkov taking cover, well.. I think thats more or less him trying to take cover despite the amount of enemies firing at him. Oh sure in that particular screenshot it looks like he's not even trying, but when an enemy outflanks you in this game you don't have much choice in Surkov's situation but to stand ground and fight back.

 

I think the biggest complaint surrounding the whole "i don't get to play a real spy" was the absolute downer of a mission when you "assassinate" al-bara. He gets all dressed up in a tux to stalk around the grounds in which nobody see's him.. so why bother putting him in a tux? To tease us about the fact they had a "bond-like" mission in the works but were unable to complete it due to time constraints? Bah!