Fallout: New Vegas

[Mikhailian]

On the player's back on pic 2, I see weapon that looks suspiciously like a Winchester Model 1887...

[Enoch]

Ha! Apparently, the Buffalo Bill's casino in Primm has been re-named "Bison Steve."

[Gorgon]

I hope there is at least one armour set that isn't ugly. Most of what I have seen is, it was pretty dire in FO as well. Bethesda's fault really, their art assets.

 

Maybe I'm too picky I dunno, but I was trekking around in raider badlands gear towards the end of the game because almost everything else was aesthetically unpleasant. Take the trench coats for instance, if you can't make one that flaps around the legs because the engine can't to it don't bother at all. They look like they were carved out of wood.

Edited May 24, 2010 by Gorgon

[Thorton_AP]

Given how easy it was to raise skills in FO3, there is really no reason that they should not have had considerably more impact on the gameplay.

 

Actually, given how easy it is to raise stats is probably why they didn't have considerably more impact on the gameplay.

No, I think Slowtrain had it right. The reason that the effect of skill levels tends to get stripped out of ARPGs is that players generally dislike playing shootery combat that features their onscreen avatar missing what the player aims at. Short of taking the ME2 route and removing combat skills entirely, there are a couple of ways to mitigate this effect. Two of the more dubious ways of doing so are to make the difference in skill level minuscule, and to throw enough skillpoints at the player that he never gets to experience much of the low-skill state of affairs. Bethesda took the worst of both worlds and implemented both of these lousy approaches-- having already swamped the character in skillpoints, the drawback of making them matter a lot in the feel of the shooting goes away to a great degree. (Other, better ways to address this are to make the skill affect things other than accuracy or damage-- rate of fire, reload time, chance of a jam, rate of decay-- or to make leveling up a skill more about acquiring special moves than about marginal improvements in overall effectiveness.)

 

 

I think there was a misunderstanding. Looking at Slowtrain's commentary: (paraphrased) "Because Skill points are so plentiful, they should be more significant."

 

My impression: Skill points can be so plentiful because they are not particularly significant. It is easier to hand them out in large quantities, because it does not significantly change the game.

[Fionavar]

Thread Pruned: Please do keep in mind that posts, even if the intent is to affirm another Publisher, which are disrespectful of other companies is really not in keeping with the spirit or intention of the Forum Guidelines.

 

Harassment: We ask that the users of this board treat one another with respect, even when opinions differ. Personal attacks that are intended to cause unwanted attention, embarrassment, or harm will not be tolerated. In addition, Obsidian does not tolerate disrespectful and/or slanderous posts about its competitors, developers and publishers. Such posts will be subject to editing or deleting, with its posters censured or banned.

[WorstUsernameEver]

Screencaps (supposedly) from The Strip.

 

Only part of this screens are from the Strip, the rest either from Primm or some faction's camp (very probably only the New California's one).

Anyway, I like A LOT the look of the Strip.

It's like so kind of El Dorado, with the people of the Mojave wasteland living their ****ty life and the walled and protected New Vegas citizen living a luxurious, pre-war style life. There's definitely a nice contrast and while some people will complain that it's not enough post-apocalyptic, I think it's good that they play a bit with the concept, otherwise we'd end up getting very similar, stale and boring stories.

[WorstUsernameEver]

I'm copying this from Bethesda's forums, straight from J.E. Sawyer's mouth (well.. fingers technically):

 

Gun chat.

 

In 1997, I played the original Fallout. Like the games that followed it, Fallout had Small Guns, Big Guns, and Energy Weapons. In F1, the gun skills were designed for phased obsolescence. If you tagged Big Guns or Energy Weapons early on, you would not be able to gain much, if any, benefit from it for a long time. Even back then, I thought this was problematic. Before playing the game, players could not know how content would limit the applicability of weapons. Ultimately, it came down to three weapons: the minigun, rocket launcher, and flamer. Large, with heavy ammo, and either burst or AoE only. In Fallout 3, the list of Big Guns was expanded to include the fat man, rock-it launcher, and gatling laser. In most situations, these weapons were all still at least mid-power at their weakest. In talking to people in person and online, and in reading online commentary, I found that people were also still unclear on what marked the clear division between Small Guns and Big Guns (and even Energy Weapons, in the case of the Gatling Laser). Certainly the UI could be improved to help with this (something we have already done for F:NV), but it conceptually was a sticking point.

 

When I was looking at Big Guns for F:NV, I considered that the list of weapons was small compared to any other weapon category and several of the weapons arguably belonged (or at least could be easily categorized) elsewhere. Moving the Big Guns to different weapon skills and dissolving the Big Guns skill would allow weapons like the minigun to remain as a powerful top tier weapon without needing to invent low-tier "Big Guns" that might further confuse the dividing line. Coming up with a wide power spectrum of Guns, Energy Weapons, and Explosives would not be hard at all. Since our skill point economy is more frugal (I'll delve into this another time) and since we do have Strength requirements on weapons (resulting in increased sway for firearms and a decreased rate of fire for melee/unarmed), where you invest your skill points and SPECIAL points is still pretty important. A fully upgraded minigun wielded by a character with high Guns and high Strength cuts down rooms of people like a scythe, even at relatively long range. In the hands of an unskilled, low Strength character, it sprays a lot of bullets all over the place.

 

The exact categorization of weapons in F:NV isn't rooted in the logic of transferable skills from real life, but it's arguable they never were previously, either (missile launcher/flamer/minigun, for example). The categorizations have more to do with being clear and consistent with definitions. It follows this basic pattern:

 

* Does it explode? It's an Explosive.

* Does it use Small Energy Cells, Microfusion Cells, or other energy ammo? It's an Energy Weapon.

* Does it use conventional bullets of some flavor as ammo? It's a Gun.

 

So while it's accurate to say that Big Guns no longer exists as a category, it's not accurate to say that Big Guns and Small Guns were combined. The weapons in Big Guns were divided among the other weapon skills.

 

I know not everyone will be happy with this re-organization, but those are the reasons for the change. I hope the reasons are clear, even if you disagree with the decision. Thanks.

[Oner]

You could provide a link you know. For those of us who want to see the RAAAAAGE.

Disregard, found it. http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/topi...st__p__15974262

Edited May 24, 2010 by Oner

[WorstUsernameEver]

To be honest there still hasn't been much rage, anyway here's the link: http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/topi...o/page__st__120

 

BTW, I like the changes, though I hope the penalty for not meeting the strength requirements is big and not just a little bit of sway. It would be even better if there's some granularity : you don't meet the requirements for 1 point? sway.

you don't meet the requirements because you need 5 strength and you have 1?

SO MUCH SWAY.

Or rate of fire.. by the way is that really the right wording for a melee weapon?

[jero cvmi]

Since our skill point economy is more frugal (I'll delve into this another time) and since we do have Strength requirements on weapons (resulting in increased sway for firearms and a decreased rate of fire for melee/unarmed), where you invest your skill points and SPECIAL points is still pretty important.

 

This is what's really important: Gun specialization is actually more involved now despite the Big Guns skill being eliminated. Which is awesome, thanks Josh.

 

I still wish there's more than Strength requirements, like Agility or Perception for example.

 

I have a question though: By the same logic, the player should have low end energy and explosive weapons available early on, so that his/hers investment in Energy Weapons / Explosions isn't useless for the first part of the game. With explosives, i can guess it could be dynamites, molotov coctails and the like. But energy weapons were typically powerful weapons. Can you give an example of low end energy weapons a 1st level character will have access to? Are they new weapons or underpowered versions of normal energy weapons?

[WorstUsernameEver]

I have a question though: By the same logic, the player should have low end energy and explosive weapons available early on, so that his/hers investment in Energy Weapons / Explosions isn't useless for the first part of the game. With explosives, i can guess it could be dynamites, molotov coctails and the like. But energy weapons were typically powerful weapons. Can you give an example of low end energy weapons a 1st level character will have access to? Are they new weapons or underpowered versions of normal energy weapons?

 

There are already low end energy weapons in Fallout 3, like the laser pistol, so my guess is that we'll be seeing similar weapons, maybe 'civilian' models, you can use for run & gun tactics and similar.

By the way, I hope item descriptions will make a comeback.

[Thorton_AP]

Are agility and perception really requirements for a gun though? I figure they'd just be factors in accenting your skill. I can understand strength. If you have the steadiest hand in the world (maybe this is agility?), but the gun is physically exhausting just to hold, you're going to struggle with the gun.

 

Some of the energy weapons could be melee weapons to start.

Edited May 24, 2010 by Thorton_AP

[Oner]

Taser maybe.

[Enoch]

Taser maybe.

Cattle prod.

 

Fits the setting to a T.

[Slowtrain]

Wait, are the posters at Bethsoft upset about the merging of Big Guns into other skills?

 

If so, they're idiots. To be blunt. It's an effective solution. I would have gone farther and merged energy weapons into other skills (you only need one skill to cover anything that points and shoots non AoE, but I can see Josh's rationale behind keeping EW seperate.

[Oner]

Taser maybe.

Cattle prod.

 

Fits the setting to a T.

Not just fits, it was present in FO2.

Regardless, it could be categorized as a melee weapon, that's why I didn't mention it.

Edited May 24, 2010 by Oner

[WorstUsernameEver]

Wait, are the posters at Bethsoft upset about the merging of Big Guns into other skills?

 

If so, they're idiots. To be blunt. It's an effective solution. I would have gone farther and merged energy weapons into other skills (you only need one skill to cover anything that points and shoots non AoE, but I can see Josh's rationale behind keeping EW seperate.

 

It's not just Bethesda's forums to be honest, there's quite a lot of people on No Mutants Allowed and Duck and Cover that didn't like the choice.

And to be fair, the people on Bethesda forums have different opinions, they're not a hive mind intent on deprecating rebalancing.

Anyway, I'm interested now in hearing about how points will be distributed in Fallout : New Vegas.

Sawyer is making it sound like the game will push you into specializing instead of the jack of all trades approach of Fallout 3, and that's definitely a good thing (at least from my point of view.. some will hate the thing, since they probably didn't like the character development aspect of the game and played it as an action-adventure).

[jero cvmi]

There are already low end energy weapons in Fallout 3, like the laser pistol,

I quit in level 6, and never came across one :shrugs:

so my guess is that we'll be seeing similar weapons, maybe 'civilian' models, you can use for run & gun tactics and similar.

well maybe i didn't phrase my question correctly: Isn't High Tec supposed to be something really special in fallout? With whole factions devoted to scavenging it? Does it make much sense for a 1 level dweller to have a laser pistol, when it was something special even for the Brotherhood of Steel?

 

Then again, Vegas is supposedly almost unharmed, so it would make more sense to have High Tec readily available than what it did in Fallout 3.

 

By the way, I hope item descriptions will make a comeback.

+1000

 

Are agility and perception really requirements for a gun though? I figure they'd just be factors in accenting your skill. I can understand strength. If you have the steadiest hand in the world (maybe this is agility?), but the gun is physically exhausting just to hold, you're going to struggle with the gun.

I was thinking Agility for melee weapons, and Perception for light ranged ones. By your logic, if you're totally clumsy with a blade you will damage it more than your enemy, and if you're greatly myopic you won't be able to aim with a gun.

 

Taser maybe.

Cattle prod.

 

Fits the setting to a T.

Not just fits, it was present in FO2.

Regardless, it could be categorized as a melee weapon, that's why I didn't mention it.

And also one of the most powerful ones. I was thinking more like a penknife edition of Ripper or something.

Edited May 24, 2010 by jero cvmi

[Mikhailian]

Wait, are the posters at Bethsoft upset about the merging of Big Guns into other skills?

There was some knee-jerk ugliness last night, when there was no real information. But quite a few people actually seemed positive towards the idea, seeing as Mr. Sawyer seems to have fairly good instincts about his mechanical tweaks.

[vault_overseer]

Or rate of fire.. by the way is that really the right wording for a melee weapon?

rate'o'stabbin' ?

[Undecaf]

Wait, are the posters at Bethsoft upset about the merging of Big Guns into other skills?

 

If so, they're idiots. To be blunt. It's an effective solution.

 

I think most of the "idiotism" came from the fear of it now being even easier to become overpowered, or something. Didn't really pay too much attention to the rants, though.

 

But I agree with you. The solution can (and likely will) be effective, provided that, in addition of the "more frugal skillpoint economy", the pace of leveling and the effectiviness of skills and stats supports it (imo).

[WorstUsernameEver]

well maybe i didn't phrase my question correctly: Isn't High Tec supposed to be something really special in fallout? With whole factions devoted to scavenging it? Does it make much sense for a 1 level dweller to have a laser pistol, when it was something special even for the Brotherhood of Steel?

 

Then again, Vegas is supposedly almost unharmed, so it would make more sense to have High Tec readily available than what it did in Fallout 3.

 

Not only we have Vegas almost unharmed, but we have factions like the NCR and the Gun Runners that are actually making new guns and have probably got their hands on some way to build some low-end energy weapons.

And Fallout 3 was full of laser pistols, the first I remember finding was in the Super Duper Mart, so quite early in the game, and there were TWO to boot. Granted, the ammo was scarce, especially if you compare it with the availability of normal 10mm ammo and the likes of it, but still you could find energy weapons quite early.

[jero cvmi]

well maybe i didn't phrase my question correctly: Isn't High Tec supposed to be something really special in fallout? With whole factions devoted to scavenging it? Does it make much sense for a 1 level dweller to have a laser pistol, when it was something special even for the Brotherhood of Steel?

 

Then again, Vegas is supposedly almost unharmed, so it would make more sense to have High Tec readily available than what it did in Fallout 3.

 

Not only we have Vegas almost unharmed, but we have factions like the NCR and the Gun Runners that are actually making new guns and have probably got their hands on some way to build some low-end energy weapons.

And Fallout 3 was full of laser pistols, the first I remember finding was in the Super Duper Mart, so quite early in the game, and there were TWO to boot. Granted, the ammo was scarce, especially if you compare it with the availability of normal 10mm ammo and the likes of it, but still you could find energy weapons quite early.

I stand corrected. I only played it for like 10 hours anyway, so i guess i've missed out on a lot of content. :shrugs again:

[Starwars]

What Josh says:

 

"Gun chat.

 

In 1997, I played the original Fallout. Like the games that followed it, Fallout had Small Guns, Big Guns, and Energy Weapons. In F1, the gun skills were designed for phased obsolescence. If you tagged Big Guns or Energy Weapons early on, you would not be able to gain much, if any, benefit from it for a long time. Even back then, I thought this was problematic. Before playing the game, players could not know how content would limit the applicability of weapons. Ultimately, it came down to three weapons: the minigun, rocket launcher, and flamer. Large, with heavy ammo, and either burst or AoE only. In Fallout 3, the list of Big Guns was expanded to include the fat man, rock-it launcher, and gatling laser. In most situations, these weapons were all still at least mid-power at their weakest. In talking to people in person and online, and in reading online commentary, I found that people were also still unclear on what marked the clear division between Small Guns and Big Guns (and even Energy Weapons, in the case of the Gatling Laser). Certainly the UI could be improved to help with this (something we have already done for F:NV), but it conceptually was a sticking point.

 

When I was looking at Big Guns for F:NV, I considered that the list of weapons was small compared to any other weapon category and several of the weapons arguably belonged (or at least could be easily categorized) elsewhere. Moving the Big Guns to different weapon skills and dissolving the Big Guns skill would allow weapons like the minigun to remain as a powerful top tier weapon without needing to invent low-tier "Big Guns" that might further confuse the dividing line. Coming up with a wide power spectrum of Guns, Energy Weapons, and Explosives would not be hard at all. Since our skill point economy is more frugal (I'll delve into this another time) and since we do have Strength requirements on weapons (resulting in increased sway for firearms and a decreased rate of fire for melee/unarmed), where you invest your skill points and SPECIAL points is still pretty important. A fully upgraded minigun wielded by a character with high Guns and high Strength cuts down rooms of people like a scythe, even at relatively long range. In the hands of an unskilled, low Strength character, it sprays a lot of bullets all over the place.

 

The exact categorization of weapons in F:NV isn't rooted in the logic of transferable skills from real life, but it's arguable they never were previously, either (missile launcher/flamer/minigun, for example). The categorizations have more to do with being clear and consistent with definitions. It follows this basic pattern:

 

* Does it explode? It's an Explosive.

* Does it use Small Energy Cells, Microfusion Cells, or other energy ammo? It's an Energy Weapon.

* Does it use conventional bullets of some flavor as ammo? It's a Gun.

 

So while it's accurate to say that Big Guns no longer exists as a category, it's not accurate to say that Big Guns and Small Guns were combined. The weapons in Big Guns were divided among the other weapon skills.

 

I know not everyone will be happy with this re-organization, but those are the reasons for the change. I hope the reasons are clear, even if you disagree with the decision. Thanks."

[WorstUsernameEver]

Uhm.. yeah Starwars, I posted it on the other page.