Deus Ex 3

[mkreku]

And on the other end of the scale we have Fable. Why worry about inventories at all? Or why bother to use more than one button for combat? And sure, make the player walk on maps, but make a glowing breadcrumb trail appear in front of his feet every second of the game so he can not ever get lost. I mean, we have enough pockets, two fisted fights and getting lost in real life, right? Much more convenient to have it all laid out for you! Oh, and don't worry about dying, there's no penalty for that either. It might frustrate someone, and we all know what dying in real life means, right?

[Nepenthe]

You guys aren't exactly supporting your argument for your own superiority with the contribution to the back and forth here. Jus' throwin' that out there...

 

Was anyone arguing about their own superiority, though ?

 

I almost went to the trouble of grabbing a screen cap of you saying that, and then post it here with the text written next to your gamertag circled in pink - but then I decided that since I'm down with a flu and have a splitting headache, it would just be too much trouble.

[Hell Kitty]

And on the other end of the scale we have Fable.

 

The other end of what scale? I actually just finished Fable 3, and it's not one button for combat it's three (melee, firearms, and magic), with different strength attacks, so it's not quite as simple as you seem to think. It is, however, very, very easy. It's possibly the least challenging game I've played in years, on account of there being none, but looking for challenging combat in Fable is like looking for quality first-person shooting in Deus Ex. As for the glowing trail to your selected target, that can be turned off in the options menu.

 

I really love inventory tetris. Okay maybe love is too strong a word, but I never find it a chore and I do derive some sort of OCD based pleasure from rearranging my stuff. The lack of or removal of an inventory does not constitute a dumbing down. The inventory in Deus Ex might be more complex than the one in Thief, but they're both still simple. Complex does not equal complicated, and simple does not equal stupid.

 

Needless complexity is the entire problem with the control system in Trespasser. That other end of that scale is every other FPS ever.

[mkreku]

The other end of what scale? I actually just finished Fable 3, and it's not one button for combat it's three (melee, firearms, and magic), with different strength attacks, so it's not quite as simple as you seem to think.

Oh, really?

 

"His goals for Fable 2 include combat that's "so simple that anyone can play it" and that "makes you feel cool," both of which he hopes to achieve with just one button on the Xbox 360 controller button."

 

Source: http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/rpg/fable2...p;mode=previews

 

Three buttons in Fable 3 then? Wow. I could swear I've been hearing little Halo-brains popping in the last month, that must have been why.

 

Needless complexity..

That statement is right up there with "I don't have time to play long games" and "I wish they hadn't spent less time on graphics and more time on story" as the most inane thing you can possibly say. You don't want "needless" complexity? Gee ****ing whiz. I would just love me some needless complexity! That's what this entire discussion's been about. Needless complexity.

[Malcador]

I almost went to the trouble of grabbing a screen cap of you saying that, and then post it here with the text written next to your gamertag circled in pink - but then I decided that since I'm down with a flu and have a splitting headache, it would just be too much trouble.

 

 

Which would be good, as it is meant as a joke to only offend the super tender Pink's a nice colour though, I'm tempted to get a pink set of laces for my winter boot, but can't find one, most odd.

[Hell Kitty]

Needless complexity..

That statement is right up there with "I don't have time to play long games" and "I wish they hadn't spent less time on graphics and more time on story" as the most inane thing you can possibly say. You don't want "needless" complexity? Gee ****ing whiz. I would just love me some needless complexity! That's what this entire discussion's been about. Needless complexity.

 

I never said "I don't want needless complexity". "Needless complexity is the entire problem with the control system in Trespasser." is the statement I made. If you want to argue against that, then go right ahead.

[Oner]

I dunno. It seems so obvious. And the developers admit it for the most part. IIRC, Josh himself even made some reference to hardcore gamers being generally more tolerant of simplification and lack of difficulty than casual/mass gamers are of complexity and difficulty, so it makes more financial sense to court the gamer who likes things simple and easy than it does to court the gamer who likes things complex and difficult.

It was about rpg players, not hc gamers, IIRC.

 

 

If everyone else on the planet was half as smart as the two of us we'd all be enjoying first person games with control systems like Trespasser. Sure, picking up and carrying an item is about a billion times more complex and annoying than real life, but just because reality has been dumbed down for the masses doesn't mean our games have to be.

[entrerix]

i know i said this way earlier, but I too love inventory tetris, and believe it to be the best type of inventory system implemented in games so far.

 

system shock 2

deus ex

and even resident evil 4

 

all fantastic inventory systems imo, re 4 gets special mention because you can spend money on a larger "briefcase"/inventory grid.

[Hurlshort]

JA2 v1.13 had the best inventory system of all time, yo.

[entrerix]

yes, sigh, i still have not played either xcom or jagged alliance.

 

i tried JA2 a year ago, but couldn't get it to work with vista, and after about 4 hours of screwing with settings etc i just gave up and moved on. I'll probably try again in a year or so

[Maria Caliban]

You guys aren't exactly supporting your argument for your own superiority with the contribution to the back and forth here. Jus' throwin' that out there...

 

You are wrong!

 

[Maria Caliban]

Never played the game in question, but given a map the player can see himself and his orientation (or a compass display) you can describe whereabouts they can find the objective no ?

 

I'm not sure if you've played Morrowind, but I'd argue that while major destinations were easy enough to find because they were marked on your world map, smaller destinations were a pain. Navigating the Ashlands in the middle of a red sand storm while constantly being attacked by bird creatures is not fun. The first time I played, I would literally spend hours wandering around trying to find the right location because there are fifteen different crypts, tombs, caves, and ruins that might be described as being 'Southwest of the Ursulaka Camp,' and there aren't signs or land marks.

 

People forget that Morrowind came with a huge, very detailed map of the game world that included 90% of in-game locations.

 

No, it didn't. This is the map. There are about 200 locations in Morrowind. And while the map was very pretty, I'd argue that finding the giant city on the main road with a bunch of signs pointing the way was not an issue for the average player, so a map that mostly shows major cities and fortifications isn't all that useful.

 

why do people always talk about elitism like its bad?

 

Because it's largely unwarranted. If someone wants to argue that As I Lay Dying is a magnificent English work and that comparatively The Amazing Spider-Man is pig slop, I'll hear them out. If someone tries to tell me that Deus Ex is a magnificent work and that comparatively Halo is pig slop, I'll laugh at them.

 

some people really are smarter than others, it doesn't mean the inferior person has less rights, just less ability.

 

Sure, there are very intelligent people in the world and very non-intelligent people in the world, but if you hope to impress people with your intelligence via games, join a chess tournament. If you manage to get through Myst or Riven without using a guide or help, I shall be impressed at your intelligence. If you managed to play through the original Deus Ex, then you've only shown you're as smart as the fourteen year old I lent my copy of the game to.

Edited November 12, 2010 by Maria Caliban

[Maria Caliban]

*delete*

Edited November 12, 2010 by Maria Caliban

[mkreku]

If you managed to play through the original Deus Ex, then you've only shown you're as smart as the fourteen year old I lent my copy of the game to.

Yet they feel the need to dumb it down for the console crowd.

 

What does that tell you?

[RPGmasterBoo]

I thought we were discussing game complexity, not who has bigger balls.

[Nepenthe]

You guys aren't exactly supporting your argument for your own superiority with the contribution to the back and forth here. Jus' throwin' that out there...

 

You are wrong!

 

My problem is that I don't know in which group I'm supposed to belong, as I play with both! In fact, I happen to have a PS3 AND an x360, in addition to the "light" gaming PC. Is this just the gaming KKK coming after me for attempting to pollute the master race?

[RPGmasterBoo]

I have a PS2 and I've had a few great experiences on it. However gameplay with such a limited controller on genres that I like RTS, FPS, RPG - is crap.

 

To keep it on topic, Deus Ex iirc was a slightly more complex FPS interface and control wise. Nothing that can't be adapted completely to fit on a console (without less complexity). Of course then you get autoaim and all that crap, but the PC version will hopefully be fit to work on a PC and that will be fine.

 

Personally I think (without any justification - its just a feeling) that the game will be lacking in Deus Ex spirit, because this seems like just another attempt to zombify and cash in on a dead series - too long after whatever vision its creators had for it.

[Majek]

erm Boo, the "creator's vision " was DX2. all that simplifying etc.

Edited November 12, 2010 by Majek

[Nepenthe]

Deus Ex had a(n apparently) successful PS2 port: http://ps2.ign.com/articles/358/358322p1.html

[RPGmasterBoo]

erm Boo, the "creator's vision " was DX2. all that simplifying etc.

 

Which goes to show that Deux Ex was most likely a one shot thing.

[entrerix]

why do people always talk about elitism like its bad?

 

Because it's largely unwarranted. If someone wants to argue that As I Lay Dying is a magnificent English work and that comparatively The Amazing Spider-Man is pig slop, I'll hear them out. If someone tries to tell me that Deus Ex is a magnificent work and that comparatively Halo is pig slop, I'll laugh at them.

 

some people really are smarter than others, it doesn't mean the inferior person has less rights, just less ability.

 

Sure, there are very intelligent people in the world and very non-intelligent people in the world, but if you hope to impress people with your intelligence via games, join a chess tournament. If you manage to get through Myst or Riven without using a guide or help, I shall be impressed at your intelligence. If you managed to play through the original Deus Ex, then you've only shown you're as smart as the fourteen year old I lent my copy of the game to.

 

 

first off, imo halo is pigslop compared to deus ex in terms of writing, atmosphere, level design, and themes. Deus ex is the pigslop in terms of action gameplay.

 

that said... you are hammering my point home about intelligence when you bring up the fact that a 14 year old can beat deus ex. I wasn't much older than that when i first beat the game, and it was not very challenging regardless. So if a stupid 14 year old (i assume the person you lent the game was stupid because you implied that I was only as intelligent as he/she and you probably were not trying to compliment me with your statement) can beat deus ex then WHY does the game need to be streamlined further? its already a very playable and beatable game, even for very stupid teenagers (the audience that I assume they are trying to streamline it for)

 

don't anyone go too crazy though, there are parts of deus ex I think need streamlining (i already mentioned how i feel about the passive v active augs), so i'm not firmly in either camp. edit: except the camp that believes intelligence absolutely is relevant to gaming, and that elitism is not always bad, and can even be good for society.

Edited November 12, 2010 by entrerix

[Wrath of Dagon]

May be because some people find it tedious and boring?

[Guest Slinky]

I shall now unleash my superior intelligence on you and state to you sub humans that intelligence has nothing to do with games, like other members of the master race have already said earlier. Everybody who thinks different is a stupid person.

 

Wrath of Dagon is also stupid person, because he's from texas. Texas is a stupid country.

[Majek]

JA2 v1.13 had the best inventory system of all time, yo.

They've complicated it too much with all the vests and pockets. Half of those slots would've been enough and easier to balance.

[Malcador]

They should do like Obsidian did and supply a 'hardcore' mode of the game.