Mass Effect 2 Discussion

[Gromnir]

But hey, it's always fun to argue against mathematical facts, right?

 

Mathematics can't tell me which one is better, it can just tell me which one is "MOAR". ME1 throw has 3 different levels with a lot of filler, ME2 throw has 4 different levels, with the 4th level branching into two different options. The boosts you get at every level in ME2 are like the ones ME1 has as "new" versions of the power - not the minor percentage boosts to partial effects in between.

 

Again, just because there's more little boxes for you to tick (indeed, a mathematical fact), does not necessarily mean = better. Just like level 60 isn't automatically more than level 30.

 

dismiss mathematics if you will, but the math does show that given the number of skill/power points available, diversity o' character builds necessarily diminishes as you decrease the number of skills/powers upon which the player may spend their points, and for many folks such a result is antithetical to the spirit of a rpg. unlike numbers, Gromnir would not have made a quantity v. quality argument regarding differences in character development options 'tween me 1 and me 2. that being said, numbers has a valid point. at level 30 your me 2 sentinel or infiltrator will look much the same as Gromnir's or number's or enoch's. making meaningful gameplay and character development choices is typical what sets crpgs apart from other genres, no? sadly, me 2 character development scheme gives the player only one vital character development choice: your choice of class. is not a matter of "dumbed down" or quality, but me 2 does offer the player very few meaningful character development options once you exit the tutorial portion o' the game.

 

lack o' character development options does not make me 2 a bad game, but for the folks who live and die by the rule of Meaningful Choice to judge crpg worth, me 2 is found wanting compared to previous released original bio titles, including me 1.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited February 4, 2010 by Gromnir

[Raithe]

Good points and flaws aside.. I'd say I had more fun with ME2 then I did with DragonAge. That I'm still inclined to play around with it and see what different things crop up when other choices are made after the first 44 hours of gameplay... That's quality for the money I paid for it.

 

You can break it down on what bits are better then ME1, which bits are worse, how other games are better or worse, and whether they'll fix much for dlc or ME3... The final thought is just whether you had fun in the end and enjoyed what was there more then you disliked some of it.

[HoonDing]

Jack's Shockwave just owns everything below Hard difficulty. She's proven to be the most useful team member so far, together with Miranda. One can hide behind cover all day & watch her go to work.

[213374U]

Is there a reason you left out Spectre Training, the Conversation skills and the passive Class specialization skill (for both games)? Also, Sentinels don't get pistol training. They get some bonuses from their class skill, but that's it.

 

Looking at my last run, I've got Throw, Lift, Barrier, Decryption, Electronics, Bastion all at Master level with Charm, Shotguns each one point away and Stasis at Advanced level and Spectre Training at Basic. I've got enough points to max out, or nearly so 9 of the 13 skills. If I continued to level 60 I could bring Charm, Shotguns and Stasis all up to Master level. I don't have any other characters that high right now to check with, but you get enough points by the end of the game that most characters will end up the same way, even if they took different paths to get there. For the record, my character is a level 51 Sentinel just about to beat up Saren. No new game+

 

One system has fewer skills, but that doesn't really translate into fewer choices if you have enough points to max out everything useful in both systems anyway.

My bad. I was writing that from memory, and I was pretty certain my sentinel had marksman. But that comes from the Bastion/Medic branch.

 

As for the rest, you cannot get to lv 60 in one playthrough, as there simply isn't enough XP to go around. Even at 60, you cannot max everything, as you get 1 point for each level gained from levels 51-60. IIRC, you'd need to be around level 90 for that. And even so, getting to lv 60 is tedious as hell. Getting to level 30 is not too difficult in ME2, if you import a character.

 

 

Mathematics can't tell me which one is better, it can just tell me which one is "MOAR". ME1 throw has 3 different levels with a lot of filler, ME2 throw has 4 different levels, with the 4th level branching into two different options. The boosts you get at every level in ME2 are like the ones ME1 has as "new" versions of the power - not the minor percentage boosts to partial effects in between.

 

Again, just because there's more little boxes for you to tick (indeed, a mathematical fact), does not necessarily mean = better. Just like level 60 isn't automatically more than level 30.

Sigh.

 

I already explained how there is a difference between the different levels of a same power in ME1 (I even explicitly mentioned that the minute increases do NOT factor into this and could have been done away with without changing the argument one iota!), giving specific examples and comparing to ME2 progression which makes ZERO difference from a gameplay perspective (lv 1 Adrenaline Burst works exactly the same as lv 3, with only lv 4 offering some difference). But even all of this ignores the fact that there are LESS powers to choose from.

 

Who said anything about "better"? You were specifically discussing variety, and that very concept is based around counting. To put it in terms you would understand, the idea of variety is fundamentally linked to "MOAR" (choices). At this point it's plain that you either don't know what you're talking about (must be that barrier language thing, heh), or are just "playing the devil's advocate" (read: trolling).

 

Find a dictionary if you need further clarification, I'm done with this idiocy.

 

 

I know it's not a particularly forceful argument for comparing ME1 and ME2, but I suspect that ME2 has fewer options because characters aren't going to be wiped going into ME3, which will almost certainly come with a few new abilities per class, plus prestige class options.

Yes, probably. But, eh... how is the possibility that they will expand the talent trees and add new talents an excuse for limiting choice in this game? Just make it so you CANNOT progress past level 30, only with more stuff to choose from. That ensures that you won't be able to max everything, leaving room for progress in ME3 and the result is the same... only you have allowed for actual customization!

 

 

EDIT:

lack o' character development options does not make me 2 a bad game, but for the folks who live and die by the rule of Meaningful Choice to judge crpg worth, me 2 is found wanting compared to previous released original bio titles, including me 1.

That's what I'm saying. I did like ME2 better overall. Edited February 4, 2010 by 213374U

[Deraldin]

My bad. I was writing that from memory, and I was pretty certain my sentinel had marksman. But that comes from the Bastion/Medic branch.

 

As for the rest, you cannot get to lv 60 in one playthrough, as there simply isn't enough XP to go around. Even at 60, you cannot max everything, as you get 1 point for each level gained from levels 51-60. IIRC, you'd need to be around level 90 for that. And even so, getting to lv 60 is tedious as hell. Getting to level 30 is not too difficult in ME2, if you import a character.

 

You can't get to level 60 in one run, but 50 is quite doable, even without the bonus XP from the level 50 achievement. I never said you could max everything, but by level 50 you have more than enough points to max out 8 of 13 abilities, two of which are conversation skills that don't require any points in ME2, just actions. Looking at ME2, you get 50 points IIRC. That's enough to max out 5 abilities. Main characters have 6 skills, 7 if you grab a bonus skill. Neither game will let you max out everything.

 

I'm not arguing with there is or isn't less choice. I just don't think that there is as much of a difference in the end state as some people would have you believe. Nether game will let you max out everything, but they both do have enough points to get everything that is worth getting.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Deraldin

[Volourn]

"The final thought is just whether you had fun in the end and enjoyed what was there more then you disliked some of it."

 

It's good for what it is.

 

 

 

"Jack's Shockwave just owns everything below Hard difficulty. She's proven to be the most useful team member so far,"

 

OMGZ! Outside of the DLC moran, you just had to praise, quite possibly, thw worst jopinable npc in ME2 9of the ones I've gotten). Jack is scum - and, not in the good man that Miranda is one hot biatch! way either. I'm still debating if I shoudl bother following through with her 'loyalty mkission' as she deserves to die. And, it's not even a 'love to hate' thing; just plain 'ol fashion hate as in Banal. Boring. Bad. The writing for her is horrendous.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Volourn

[213374U]

Main characters have 6 skills, 7 if you grab a bonus skill.

That's actually 5 skills, as the "class" branch doesn't do anything appreciable. That's the reason I didn't include it. But if you want to go that way, ME1 has the "Spectre training" and the class/PRC branches. You can also get a bonus skill in ME1, for extra customization.

 

Good point about the persuasion skills. That's about the only change for ME2 that I like, in this regard.

Edited February 4, 2010 by 213374U

[Killian Kalthorne]

Jack's Shockwave just owns everything below Hard difficulty. She's proven to be the most useful team member so far, together with Miranda. One can hide behind cover all day & watch her go to work.

 

Mix that with singularity and you can see the enemies fly like a beagle. When you have two shockwaves go at it... WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

[RPGmasterBoo]

Actually the characters turned out somewhat weird.

 

*minor spoilers*

 

The justicar makes no sense at all, and is possibly the worst character in the game. Jack and Grunt are also shallow stereotypes. Thane is so-so.

 

The ones that are most likely to be boring: Tali, Jacob, Garrus and Miranda come off as quite good. Along with Mordin of course.

 

All of them suffer from emo delivery, and for a such a badass universe all are awfully altruistic. (except Jack and Grunt). Their personal issues are also irritatingly pedestrian (half of them are daddy issues - Tali, Jacob, Miranda - or they are the bad daddy - Justicar, Thane), and their changes of heart (like Garrus) come off as quite forced.

Still they have some sort of character, which is better than none - but Bio really needs to break the mold they're using to pop these people out.

 

Mass Effect 2 has the same problem as 1 - too little PC-NPC interaction. 5-6 conversations per NPC in which they cram in their life philosophy, family issues and undying adoration for Shepard. Its too much to swallow and feels ridiculous.

 

Overall I like Legion best. He's got no family issues.

 

 

 

 

*Note on the prevalence of daddy issues - Bio's writers really need a therapist.

Edited February 5, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Gotta admit there were an awful lot of daddy issues in the game. Although the only time I minded it was with Jacob, whose loyalty mission was just akward.

[Purkake]

*Note on the prevalence of daddy issues - Bio's writers really need a therapist.

Maybe they just really like Lost?

 

Yeah, the Jacob mission was totally out of place, like one of the writers had a story he had written in high school and always wanted everyone to read, but no one did because it sucked.

Edited February 5, 2010 by Purkake

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

On paper it made sense, but it's the sort of story which requires more than 20 minutes of gameplay to be explained correctly.

 

Anyone tried the crashed ship mission yet? That really took me by surprise, I just wish there were more backstory to the mission.

[Purkake]

I liked the Normandy crash site, but apparently no one else did.

Edited February 5, 2010 by Purkake

[Malcador]

They needed a fat guy with glasses in the Jacob mission.

[Raithe]

The Normandy crash site was nice for what it was.. if you enjoyed the idea of the emotional resonance of going through the crashed ship and picking up on the key points of recognisable wreckage..

 

If you didn't like that, it would kind of suck.

 

The other crash site was interesting in it's own odd way. It was one of those change of paces to the expected on-planet missions. Although more background would have been nice. Then again, the news story that could be heard about it afterwards on Galactic News added a little something.

[Purkake]

The one with the mechs? That one sucked.

[Calax]

I've officially decided that Mordin is the BEST character in there, between singing, and giving "inter-species mating" advice I just can't stop laughing.

 

Of course i have yet to talk to Legion so *shrugs*

 

That said, do you get sent to the crash site automatically or do you have to find it?

[Raithe]

The one with the mechs? That one sucked.

 

No, the ruined starship that was perched on the edge of the cliff.. Only Shepard is active, and you have to make your way around the "scaffolding/superstructure" ruins to get to the main log at the front of the ship before it tips over...

 

Then later there's the news report of the lost ships discovery, and bumf about historians looking over it.

[Purkake]

The one with the mechs? That one sucked.

 

No, the ruined starship that was perched on the edge of the cliff.. Only Shepard is active, and you have to make your way around the "scaffolding/superstructure" ruins to get to the main log at the front of the ship before it tips over...

 

Then later there's the news report of the lost ships discovery, and bumf about historians looking over it.

Oh, that was pretty cool.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

I liked the Normandy crash site, but apparently no one else did.

 

Makes that two of us, I enjoyed it as well.

[Purkake]

Nostalgia FTW!

[Deraldin]

I liked the Normandy crash site, but apparently no one else did.

 

Makes that two of us, I enjoyed it as well.

 

3 people.

[Purkake]

Maybe it was just a few people that hated it, then

[RPGmasterBoo]

Do not mess.

 

[Purkake]

I just couldn't put that ugly-ass thing on even if it gave me +10% damage on headshots.

 

Just look at it, it's horrible!