Dragon Age: Tactics

[Monte Carlo]

^ I know it's pointless discussing anything with Volourn, but where do his definition of vanilla fantasy tropes actually come from? Elves were, in many cultures, fairly sinister creatures. As were most fae or nature spirits. They could curse you, steal your young, poision the water... they were the original turnip ghost in many stories along with goblins and any other number of folktale critters.

 

Vol's elves and dwarves seem to be solely from LotR filtered through Ed Greenwood. :: shrugs ::

 

Look at Elric of Melnibone if you want to see how a genuinely imaginative mind envisioned 'elves' .... i.e. a highly intelligent, ancient race blessed with millenia long lifespans and access to magic become amoral, cruel, introspective and insanely powerful. Not in decline, just experiencing ennui.

 

I get it that Bio wanted and probably needed traditional fantasy races in DA. No problem. And I get it that they needed to give them a twist and with the dwarves I think by and large it worked, Orzammar and the originis / lore are a labour of love. But the elves are a genuine disappointment. They should have been extremely insular, maybe like an organised criminal group, demanded outrageous blood sacrifice for their support and dabbled in all sorts of forbidden stuff. Not sitting around in their caravans feeling sorry for themselves.

 

Cheers

MC

[Gromnir]

"They should have been extremely insular, maybe like an organised criminal group, demanded outrageous blood sacrifice for their support and dabbled in all sorts of forbidden stuff."

 

am thinking there is no "should have" with a new and original universe. possibilities is limitless. Gromnir can thinks of dozens o' ways we woulda'/coulda' done. the thing is, we get how bio ended up with their elves. the women gamers who like elves so much probable wouldn't share MC's appreciation for a mafioso elves approach... and they probable wouldn't like most o' Gromnir's suggestions. bio didn't manage to evoke any genuine pathos with their alienages and dahlish stuff, but am betting that such were a goal.

 

instead of have tuvok lead dahlish you coulda' used tony soprano? sure. sounds fun, but am doubting that Di would wanna play as carmela.

 

"I'm looking forward to my rogue run. I usually don't go in for warriors, but it seems to me that they have enough of a talent spread to be interesting. We shall see."

 

it really is terrible that the biowarians limited rogue skills and talents to rogues... and gave you two poorly built rogue jnpcs. archery is swell... during last 1/3 of game, so the french chick not pull her weight for much of game. also, to make her genuine effective as an archer it makes sense to focus on dex as 'posed to cunning... slows her development as a chest-opener and trap disarmer. as for zevran, he is an adequate combatant, but he is not initially having any o' the rogue skills or talents that would make him anything other than an adequate light-armed & armoured melee fighter.

 

there is some very good melee fighters in game, and the mages is workable (though it takes a few levels to get wynne genuine useful). on the other hand, the rogues is teh suck, so for a pc it actually makes sense to play a rogue. poor game design leads to counter-intuitive reason for playing rogue. go figure.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited December 12, 2009 by Gromnir

[Volourn]

" I know it's pointless discussing anything with Volourn, but where do his definition of vanilla fantasy tropes actually come from? Elves were, in many cultures, fairly sinister creatures. As were most fae or nature spirits. They could curse you, steal your young, poision the water... they were the original turnip ghost in many stories along with goblins and any other number of folktale critters."

 

Doesn't matter. When people think fantasy elves, it's the Tokienish/typical D&D elves they think of. Heck, in some stories dwarvesa are just evil monsters. *shrugs*

 

 

 

"They should have been extremely insular, maybe like an organised criminal group, demanded outrageous blood sacrifice for their support and dabbled in all sorts of forbidden stuff. Not sitting around in their caravans feeling sorry for themselves."

 

D&D's been there, done that. D&D's been there done that for almost everything. *shrug*

Edited December 12, 2009 by Volourn

[Monte Carlo]

When people think fantasy elves, it's the Tokienish/typical D&D elves they think of.

 

Speaketh Volourn, spokesperson for the human race.

 

Try to put aside, for a moment, your bizarro logic and answer me this: Why did Bio do such a good job of taking a staple fantasy trope (dwarves) and giving it an original twist yet fail so miserably with elves? Forget the "that's how they should be."

 

How shouldn't they be?

 

Please, prove me wrong that it's not worth discussing anything with you.

[Volourn]

"Please, prove me wrong that it's not worth discussing anything with you."

 

Not worth it. The point isn't about 'proving you wrong' as it is imposisble since it is opinion so there is no 'wrong'.

 

Bottom line is DA elves are fine the way are as it is the way elves should be. They did not fail with elves because elves are wussie, cowards, and emo. Deal with it.

 

 

 

"Speaketh Volourn, spokesperson for the human race."

 

And, you aren't?

 

Are yous eriously suggesting that the typical 'human' doesn't think of Tokien/typical D&D elf when they think of elves? You must be delusional if you think otherwise.

[Monte Carlo]

:: Gives up ::

[HoonDing]

Melnibon

[Monte Carlo]

^ Yep, our Elric-inspired Elf discovers that The Blight is actually accelerated by Elven High Blood Mages who want Utter Revenge on the teeming, fast-breeding human untermensch who so thoroughly humiliated them all those aeons ago, which in elf time is only the Friday before last.

 

Elves as Lawful Evil Nazis is so on the money it hurts.

 

Elric-inspired Elf falls foul of elf stuff on a mission to Ferelden and (oh the irony) is recruited into the Grey Wardens. Then he heads back to Elf Tower On an Island to lead the GreY Warden strike force to take the place down.

 

Epic. What did we get? Some eejits sitting around a camp fire feeling sorry for themselves.

 

Discuss.

[Volourn]

The exact way elves should be protrayed. The TRUE elf.

[Aristes]

They could do one thing to make me happy for all the races. Don't put them in decline. No running off to die in dwindling numbers. Make it a real horserace for survival between these guys. Make it mean something. Even the Witcher relies on the same old 'twist.'

[Asol]

^ Yep, our Elric-inspired Elf discovers that The Blight is actually accelerated by Elven High Blood Mages who want Utter Revenge on the teeming, fast-breeding human untermensch who so thoroughly humiliated them all those aeons ago, which in elf time is only the Friday before last.

 

Elves as Lawful Evil Nazis is so on the money it hurts.

 

Elric-inspired Elf falls foul of elf stuff on a mission to Ferelden and (oh the irony) is recruited into the Grey Wardens. Then he heads back to Elf Tower On an Island to lead the GreY Warden strike force to take the place down.

 

Epic. What did we get? Some eejits sitting around a camp fire feeling sorry for themselves.

 

Discuss.

 

In this setting elves are essentially beheaded as a people seperated from their heritage and nature they are lacking in self reliance and individualism with some seeking a return to form and others just lost and needy. Its almost entirely parallel to District 9 and I think most of the folks here raved on that. Its not the greatest but I wouldn't say there is no appreciable material.

[Dark_Raven]

Silly Volo. Elves are awesome in their tree hugging ways. They're the bad asses of fantasy.

[cronicler]

Volo: Sorry for the confusion there. The Dwarfs themselves were not cliche, I quite liked them in fact but the way they were presented (the quests, the story (especially the non-interactive part if you are a noble dwarf) felt a bit cliche, if you can understand what Im trying to express. Lawful evil power plays, the general feel of dirty politics 101 with the most basic explanations and so on felt a bit too basic and too fast. I generally felt the dwarf parts could have been better with some more lenght in the quest part via some more setup steps, slowing the story but explaining and detailing it more (and with more limited/encounter like battles in some private residances and old tunnels) and less grinding at the deep roads part.

 

Elves, and most of the dalish elven parts felt too generic compared to the level of detail that you could find in the rest of the game. Why would helping 1 clan give me the support of all the elven clans in Ferelden? Why were the elves that much civilised? From the source background material they were supposed to be a mix between the gypsies and celts or lapplanders or ucboys or cossasks or any fringe semi-barbarian, semi civilised, semi nomadic, semi settled people (that have a lot of halves that mesh weirdly) you can find in the history. The Dalish parts felt that devs begun with such a vision but then turned around and slapped a more conventional (and easier) story on the elven parts.

Edited December 13, 2009 by cronicler

[Aristes]

I just sprang

Anora

. Afterwards, I killed

Ser Cauthrien

It was a surprisingly ugly fight and I only managed it by a little bit of cheese. I kited her down the hallway and only her melee minions followed. She dishes out a huge amount of damage on hard. I was appalled. However, once she's out of the way, the rest don't stand a chance. I literally just pummeled the area with AoE spells. Fireball, because of the knockback, does have a bit of a control element and they went down like chumps.

 

Now, here's the question, my friends. Should I

load an earlier save and go quietly with Loghain's Lt., or should I go from my current save having put the dumbass out of her misery? As far as I'm concerned, she either a criminal for knowing what Rogain did and going along with it or criminally stupid for believe him even after she saw witness to his treachery.

 

[Gromnir]

I just sprang

Anora

. Afterwards, I killed

Ser Cauthrien

It was a surprisingly ugly fight and I only managed it by a little bit of cheese. I kited her down the hallway and only her melee minions followed. She dishes out a huge amount of damage on hard. I was appalled. However, once she's out of the way, the rest don't stand a chance. I literally just pummeled the area with AoE spells. Fireball, because of the knockback, does have a bit of a control element and they went down like chumps.

 

Now, here's the question, my friends. Should I

load an earlier save and go quietly with Loghain's Lt., or should I go from my current save having put the dumbass out of her misery? As far as I'm concerned, she either a criminal for knowing what Rogain did and going along with it or criminally stupid for believe him even after she saw witness to his treachery.

 

 

the game is perfectly playable if you kill ser cat. however, is more fun to get clipped and then engineer a subsequent escape or rescue.

 

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Tigranes]

lose then pick 'they'll rescue us' option = fun and hilarity, in fact very similar to some of the multi-party sequences in KOTOR2. win and you get a very nice 2-handed sword, better than Sten's Sword, Ageless (Orzammar Dragon loot).

[HoonDing]

Ser Cauthrien reminded of the Sarevok fight at the end of BG1. I never beat him without using cheese tactics like filling the room with kobold summons & using him as pin cushion after abusing Fireball to kill his minions. *shrug*

Edited December 15, 2009 by virumor

[Aristes]

I was worried about letting her live because I figured I might have to fight her later anyhow. On the other hand, I thought maybe, if I worked it right, she might be alive to help in the later fights.

 

 

So I let her live. Very clever. Once I saw how it worked, I took the dog for kicks. Very funny to see the dog bluff the guards. Quite funny to see how Oghren 'bluffs' the guards also. Apparently, the dog is smarter than Oghren, which I suspected from the outset.

 

[Monte Carlo]

OK, I've played this game more or less to death, am about to finish my second full game with my rogue.

 

My last game before I give it a rest for a bit will be on hard for everything for a challenge. I'll play a warrior, am tempted to go 2H but will I find it too frustrating? For the hard game I'm happy to re-spec some of the NPCs, for example I'm tempted to make Sten a dual-wielder or sword and board for example.

 

I also played all the way through the mage origin... what happens if

you inform on Jowan's escape attempt?

 

[Aristes]

 

I never actually betrayed him completely, but I did inform the First Enchanter about Jowan's predicament and begged for mercy for him. The first enchanter already knows that Jowan is having an affair with whatsername. If you decide to out and out betray Jowan, make sure you let us know.

 

 

I'm finished with

Landsmeet

having done everything on hard so far. I have some thoughts on that whole sordid affair, but unless/until I sort out those thoughts, I'll keep from posting on the subject. Suffice it to say that I wasn't happy with the outcome at all. I was simply unhappy with every choice.

 

I achieved the easily sidetracked thing, which, when I checked on it, means that I've completed 75% of the side quests. There are two in the Brecilian forest I failed to complete, one of which I cannot finish. There is one in Orzammar that I cannot complete at this point, but will probably finish the next run. Other than that, I took and finished everything I could find. Mage Board. Irregulars. Chantry. My main is level 20 and the others are coming along also.

 

You know, I just realized that I could have taken the dialogue items as a skill. Incredible. I'm a complete idiot. I wish I'd dumped herbalism and let Morrigan make my pots for me. Oh well, too late now.

 

Rogue two weapon next. I'll take duelist and Assassin as a dw specialist. I'll take coercion for the win next time to get the dialogue down.

[Gromnir]

I'll take coercion for the win next time to get the dialogue down.

 

somebody posted the dialogue formula. a high enough cunning score makes ranks in coercion unnecessary to succeed at persuasion checks. likewise, a high enough strength makes coercion unnecessary to succeed at intimidation checks. also, has been noted, there is invariably both a intimidate and a persuasion option when the dialogue route becomes available.

 

...

 

is a very strange rule system.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[~Di]

I also played all the way through the mage origin... what happens if

you inform on Jowan's escape attempt?

 

Well, I did...

betray Jowan. I mean, the Circle was my life and First Enchanter Irving was my beloved mentor? Jowan put me in a horrible position, which he wouldn't have done if he was a true friend, right? So I told Enchanter Irving, who asked me to go along with the charade so he and Templar Greagoir could catch them in the act. He said he wanted to prove to the Chantry that their members (meaning Lily) weren't always perfect, since the Templars thought they could do no wrong, while mages could do no right. Okay, I felt like crap but I did it. I would have felt like crap the other way, too. So when we walked out, the scene played out. Greagoir screamed and shouted, but Irving stood up for me and said I was acting on his order. Greagoir wasn't impressed. Then the scene probably played out the same way from that point on, with Jowan doing his blood magic junk and Lily backing away in horror. Then Duncan showed up... and the rest is Fereldan history! lol

 

Edited December 16, 2009 by ~Di

[Aristes]

It does play out the same way, ~Di. Thanks for sharing.

[Tigranes]

Yep, the outcome is exactly the same, which is so that

Jowan can later reappear in the Arl questline, having him die or be detained would have disrupted it too much. Though they could have had him escape detainment later on, or even have some other blood mage be in his place.... but so much for choice. I guess it was too much work and not enough payoff.

[Monte Carlo]

^ At least both options involved a little bit of fighting in tunnels. And we learn that Di is a snitch.