Dragon age discussion

[Gromnir]

am sorry, but the allistar defense committee is... lame. if only excuse for allistar behavior is that he were "irrational" and that is ok 'cause people IS irrational at times, then you still gotta complete ignore the character as he were developed for +50 hours leading up to the choice. and most o' the times our clients is not irrational, if we accept their pov. our client's fears and expectations may be irrational, but if you accept the client's pov, typically they is acting rationally.

 

"If I proceed with this case, God will smote me for being greedy."

 

irrational? is only irrational if you don't believe in a God who smotes his followers. Mr. P (for plaintiff) were a very religious man who had had some bad experiences in the past. couldn't convince him that his fears were misplaced. the thing is, if we put ourself in Mr. P's position, and we genuine believed that God would smote us if we didn't accept the govt's crappy initial deal, then his decision made sense.

 

we also worked at a juvenile detention facility, and a good number o' the kids were on some serious drugs. kid paints his walls with his own poop to keep the monsters away. irrational? not if you assume that 1) a demon is really out to get Mr. Beeson in room 12, & 2) those poop symbols will keep demons away. the thing is, Gromnir had experience with Beeson and knew he were a nutter who were on drugs that seeming made him more apt to hallucinate.

 

so the excuse is that allistar acted nutty once.

after all the sacrifices he had made and all the evil he had seen, allistar was ultimately willing to sit back and watch the world burn if there were to be a living Loghain in that world. is that it? really? if for +50 hours we had had to endure allistar's constant demands for getting vengeance on Loghain, Then his actions would make sense, even if they were irrational. getting frequent misty-eyed over duncan weren't near enough... weren't making his actions plausible. dozens of times did allistar walk through fire, literal and figurative, to preserve fereldan from the blight... but in the final choosing, he were willing to stand back and watch everything burn. how much effort would it have taken on the part o' the biowarians to reveal that al were fixated on getting revenge on Loghain, to the point where he would sacrifice... everything? not much.

 

as for morrigan, the gold child were a lame contrivance. really. Gromnir has complained 'bout the the undeveloped UBG (ultimate bad guy) but even if the arcdemon had sat down with us for tea previous to the final confrontation, the morrigan scenario would still be a gutt-buster. but of course, as Gromnir has already observed, we didn't mind that she were mercenary as that were in keeping with her character as developed. we were expecting her to do something that would make us want to headbutt her, and so when it occurred we were not surprised. no complaints on that count. but a god spawn and some tawdry sex act to save our skin? really?

 

 

regarding al, his irrational behavior were not a part o' his developed character, and it conflicted with the biowarian efforts leading up to that point. "and then he went a little crazy." sorry, but that ain't competent or plausible character development even if you thinks it is realistic. is a lazy shortcut... is an apologist response.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps am still pulling for kal sharok in a sequel or dlc. we were told that orzamar cut off ties with the other dwarven communities during the last blight, to save themselves... only kal sharok survived. is fertile story ground. the dwarf stuff were some o' the best material in da. would be interesting to see a different dwarven pov. we gets this themes o' hard choices and sacrifices... what sacrifice is too much to save everything you hold dear? could use that on a larger scale for kal sharok.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Gromnir

[SeanM]

I agree. I liked that Dragon Age had a reasonably conclusive ending. It is not like some new crisis happens

 

a new crisis? You mean, like another blight?

 

what do you suppose would be the odds of that happening?

 

I meant that television/movies often leave it open for a sequel. There would be some crisis that would require the original characters to return.

 

Dragon Age seems conclusive for most of your characters. I doubt there will be another Blight.

[newc0253]

I doubt there will be another Blight.

I have a bridge on the Thames to sell you.

 

I'm not even gonna begin to address Grom's whole "it's not irrational if you're already crazy" argument. one of my first clients ever was a guy who was thousands of dollars in debt and was facing repossession of a stereo he bought on hire purchase/an installment plan. he had fallen waay behind on the payments and had no money to make new ones.

 

but he still wanted to keep the stereo.

 

okay, that's not irrational, if you grant the premise that he has good reason for keeping the stereo, i.e. he likes to listen to music. but it's surely irrational in the broader, you-can't-seriously-expect-to-keep-a-stereo-you-can't pay-for.

 

yeah, Alistair's reaction to Loghain is stupid for all the reasons Grom lists. i agree 100%. but is it realistic? sure, in my experience. i've lost count of the times i've seen folk loose all perspective...

[SeanM]

Kal Sharok would work. It is a separate self contained location. It is not dependent on the timeline of events in Ferelden and has a different feel. It is not the same familiar locations, issues and cultures as in the core game.

 

There would be some challenges in building a standalone DLC in Ferelden. THe player is used to travelling the full length of the country and has seen its major locations/groups/issues. They may need to focus in on a location we have not seen yet.

 

Alistair end game spoilers

 

 

I think it is mainly a game mechanics decision. Most people will always choose to acquire another party member. So they force you to choose between them rather than being able to get both.

 

His behaviour is not consistent with the feel of the game. You make ruthless choices and put aside personal issues to stop the Blight. Duncan himself had that attitude. Though there are times where Alistairs gets emotional and angry but calms down afterwards and sees the bigger picture. Maybe there should be some dialogue where you tell him you know he will calm down and regret it eventually. And you hear he fought in the battle somewhere else.

 

 

Morrigan end game spoilers.

 

 

I found the Morrigan god child concept a bit overwhelming. A bit like a science fiction story quickly introducing too many important concepts of the setting. I had to grasp the guaranteed conception of the child, how the soul of the Archdemon enters the vessel and what a god child is meant to be or look like.

 

 

Maybe those two incidents were meant to be the intended storyline revelations or twists. But were a bit rushed in the end.

Edited December 10, 2009 by SeanM

[Gromnir]

I doubt there will be another Blight.

I have a bridge on the Thames to sell you.

 

I'm not even gonna begin to address Grom's whole "it's not irrational if you're already crazy" argument. one of my first clients ever was a guy who was thousands of dollars in debt and was facing repossession of a stereo he bought on hire purchase/an installment plan. he had fallen waay behind on the payments and had no money to make new ones.

 

but he still wanted to keep the stereo.

 

okay, that's not irrational, if you grant the premise that he has good reason for keeping the stereo, i.e. he likes to listen to music. but it's surely irrational in the broader, you-can't-seriously-expect-to-keep-a-stereo-you-can't pay-for.

 

yeah, Alistair's reaction to Loghain is stupid for all the reasons Grom lists. i agree 100%. but is it realistic? sure, in my experience. i've lost count of the times i've seen folk loose all perspective...

 

 

again, if you got history and development as to the person being crazy, then their actions is not implausible. we has met your stereo guy... though dealing with stereo's ain't our thing. nevertheless, we has met people who is complete stubborn about some seemingly minor issue. the thing is, if you got enough history with the person, you will not be so surprised by their odd behavior. is always a reason... even if is terrible. if allister were painting his tent walls with poop, Then we would get it. if allister had been shown as irrational regarding a particular spoiler issue previous, Then it would be acceptable. even if you think people is wacky/irrational in real life, it still is bad writing. if the only argument you got is that it makes sense because it doesn't have to make sense, then you is doing a pretty crappy job of making a convincing argument that allister is plausible or acceptable as written.

 

*chuckle*

 

imagine a mystery novel... spend +250 pages developing characters and plot. author then ultimately resolves by revealing that the killer/antagonist were just some random guy who went nuts. Worst. Story. Evar. even if is plausible, no writer ever resorts to such nonsense. "he went nuts" is the worst kinda crutch and is complete unnecessary when a writer has +50 hours to make plausible.

 

even if you like the game, is no reason to be an apologist for every stoopid thing the developers did. allister's choice is implausible... and so far the only excuse we has seen is that such implausibility is completely plausible. go figure.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Tigranes]

newc, the argument isn't that Alistair should act completely rationally and such, the point is that he is not acting rationally even to his own twisted rationality. What he is doing doesn't make sense to his own worldview, sense of right and wrong, stated aims and sense of responsibility.

 

Now, is your point that 'sometimes, people do really stupid things when under pressure or emotionally strained', things that even they know is wrong? I agree with you, yes, that does happen. However, is that really the best way to deliver a key moment in the story? The whole dialogue is public. It doesn't even happen in private, where you are able to better sense that Alistair is right now going unhinged from the fury or disbelief, that you can try and hit him with cold hard logic but he just isn't able to listen to it, etc. He goes at it as if it is the most sensible thing in the world.

 

It's not impossible that Alistair acts the way he does, no. But the delivery is extremely poor, and to boot, why would you write a player to act in such a 'crazy' way out of the blue? Alistair is not the wisest or most calm of players, but he is pretty consistent in the thinking that defeating the Blight comes before all, you gots to go for it, even to the point of

arranged marriage and kingship he does not want.

Then, at the big ol noblee party, suddenly he goes El Wacko I Cannot Control My Weepies. Please.

 

Morrigan would probably have been fine with a bit more build-up, maybe more digging into

Flemeth

allowed for the player. This is because unlike Alistair, what she does is perfectly in keeping with her character.

[Oner]

Can you even try reasoning with him, and what is his rebuttal?

[Monte Carlo]

Re-speccing now allows me to make Sten a sword and board guy --- therefore I don't even need to take Alistair anywhere. He can just sit in the camp whimpering before I marry him off.

[Gromnir]

Re-speccing now allows me to make Sten a sword and board guy --- therefore I don't even need to take Alistair anywhere. He can just sit in the camp whimpering before I marry him off.

 

the only thing we regret 'bout allistar and morriagn

is the fact that we didn't know that we shoulda' stripped 'em naked previous to their defections. as we said, we saw morrigan's betrayal coming from a mile away, but we got the timing wrong, and so she walked away with our bestest mage gear.

 

on the other hand, we genuinely liked al as a party member and character. coming down with a sudden case of resolve were unexpected and didn't fit with the way he were developed during +50 hours o' our gameplay... but so what. ultimately we didn't need him. sure, loghain were not our ideal sword & board build (4 tiers of combat frickin' tactics skill?), but he woulda' been a more than adequate replacement for the panty-wearing warden... if al hadn't made off with our best heavy armour, the keening blade and other nice stuff.

 

as Gromnir plays straight and honest our first time through game, we didn't exploit reload to get our gear back... but we did grumble 'bout it for the next couple hours o' seemingly pointless blight battles.

 

"Can you even try reasoning with him, and what is his rebuttal? "

 

yes you can, but it is pointless, 'cause loghain killed Duncan. WWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

 

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited December 10, 2009 by Gromnir

[~Di]

A dumb question about the respec mod (which doesn't seem to have a read-me). I now have a bird called "Raven" in the towns, which allows me to "know a bit more about... warriors, rogues or mages"... and allowed me, surprisingly, to unlock several previously unlocked specialties. Okay, sweet, but that wasn't what I wanted the mod for. Now after "talking" to Raven several times, I find a single "potion of respecialization" in my backpack. I'm assuming that if a character drinks it, I will be allowed to respec the character... once.

 

Is this how the respec mods y'all are using works? Because I'm really pretty underwhelmed...

[Tigranes]

I use these. They simply let you manually level every character including your PC when they first join your party.

 

They should have instructions within.

 

NoFollowerAutolevel.zip

NoStartingAbilities.zip

[Volourn]

People are discussing things like it's a given that the Morrigan end game thing is a selfish/evil thing. It isn't. Not even close to having it be. In fact, I believe it could be the ultimate sacrifice for a good cause if your character happens to dislike Morrigan.

 

I disagree with Alistair thing, and I don't even like that character much. I see his point of view. I think the problem is players want games to be dumbed down, and they don't like it when NPCs will make a chocie to leave their party espicially out of the blue so theyc ry and whine. Both characters - whether you agree with them or not - act exactly like they probably would. In Alistair's case, one could rgue that there should at leats have been a very difficult persuade check possible if you were extremely friendly with him to talk him down as a compromise. And, Grom as often as he is, is wrong. Alistair makes it perfectly clear his feelings on the issue throughout the game. In fact, making the choice you do that cause him to leave cna be seen as YOU ultimately betraying HIM.

[entrerix]

we also worked at a juvenile detention facility, and a good number o' the kids were on some serious drugs. kid paints his walls with his own poop to keep the monsters away. irrational? not if you assume that 1) a demon is really out to get Mr. Beeson in room 12, & 2) those poop symbols will keep demons away. the thing is, Gromnir had experience with Beeson and knew he were a nutter who were on drugs that seeming made him more apt to hallucinate.

 

 

ok, now i have to ask, what exactly do you do for a living where you had to deal with this kid?

[newc0253]

imagine a mystery novel... spend +250 pages developing characters and plot. author then ultimately resolves by revealing that the killer/antagonist were just some random guy who went nuts. Worst. Story. Evar. even if is plausible, no writer ever resorts to such nonsense. "he went nuts" is the worst kinda crutch and is complete unnecessary when a writer has +50 hours to make plausible.

except, in the context of Alistair's reaction, he's not going nuts for no reason. he goes nuts for reasons that have been amply built up throughout the game: i.e. he (i) loved Duncan as a father and (ii) hates Loghain. you can persuade him of other things, but these are the dealbreakers.

 

complaining about Alistair's reaction to

sparing Loghain

is like complaining that Hamlet killing Claudius is out-of-character.

 

it ain't ooc. it's so in-character, i'm bewildered that anyone would seriously bother to argue the contrary. Even on the internet, the home of pointless arguments.

 

even if you like the game, is no reason to be an apologist for every stoopid thing the developers did. allister's choice is implausible... and so far the only excuse we has seen is that such implausibility is completely plausible. go figure.

yes, that's right. that's me. i'm the apologist for every stoopid thing the devs did. apparently. if only they'd pay me, this whole thing would be worthwhile.

Edited December 11, 2009 by newc0253

[~Di]

I use these. They simply let you manually level every character including your PC when they first join your party.

 

They should have instructions within.

 

NoFollowerAutolevel.zip

NoStartingAbilities.zip

 

Thanks. I'll try to uninstall the stupid bird thing, and give these a shot... although it looks like I'm out of luck with this game, since I've gotten all NPC's except Oghren.

 

Edit: I extracted them both to the Documents/packages/core/override folder... not sure that they actually installed though. They seemed to have just... disappeared, although Winrar tells me that they are there. I go to the folder and see nada.

Edited December 11, 2009 by ~Di

[Gromnir]

we also worked at a juvenile detention facility, and a good number o' the kids were on some serious drugs. kid paints his walls with his own poop to keep the monsters away. irrational? not if you assume that 1) a demon is really out to get Mr. Beeson in room 12, & 2) those poop symbols will keep demons away. the thing is, Gromnir had experience with Beeson and knew he were a nutter who were on drugs that seeming made him more apt to hallucinate.

 

 

ok, now i have to ask, what exactly do you do for a living where you had to deal with this kid?

 

 

"worked"... is past tense. we worked at a Juvenile Hall for a few years while we were still in school... which is a good long time ago.

 

Beeson were not nearly the most... colorful.

 

as for newc's belief that allistar is in-character... well, vol agrees with him, so that right there should give him pause. in-character? after the archdemon dreams and seeing the broodmother and watchnig duncan knife ser jory...

 

how's bout a short answer question? "I will stand idly by and allow the darkspawn horde to kill, torture or transform every man, woman and child in Fereldan (and possibly all of Thedas) because _______________________________________________________________

 

so, what is an appropriate answer for allistar, one that seems plausible given the manner in which al were developed up until the landsmeet?

 

 

because you let Loghain live.

 

 

really? you musta' genuinely despised al and thought he were a complete monster if you believed it were possible that he would

sacrifice the world 'cause Loghain were left alive.

you wanna talk wacky comparisons? you is the guy comparing to some guy and his stereo.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Tigranes]

Di

Edit: I extracted them both to the Documents/packages/core/override folder... not sure that they actually installed though. They seemed to have just... disappeared, although Winrar tells me that they are there. I go to the folder and see nada.

 

No idea what's going on there, but I'd recommend extracting them to your desktop then moving them manually.

 

Easy way to test it is to begin a new game then see if the protagonist has any skills or talents already chosen for you, in the character generation screen.

 

Volo

I think the problem is players want games to be dumbed down, and they don't like it when NPCs will make a chocie to leave their party espicially out of the blue so theyc ry and whine.

 

Why would you 'think' this when nobody has actually mentioned that they have a problem with Alistair leaving, per se? There is no logical reason for you to shoe-horn that point into the discussion. Anyway, no, Alistair can leave.

 

Anyway, I still agree with Grommy that the deal-breaker for Alistair should be whether the Blight can be stopped or not, not whether Duncan can get revenge or not. For one, Alistair continually mentions the Blight and in all discussions about what to do next, the Blight is at the forefront; it's always

we need to go see Eamon first so we can gather an army; we need to be Grey Wardens even though we will all die young because we need to stop the Blight; I need to marry the bitch Anora the wife of my half-brother in an arranged marriage to stop the Blight; I need to be a King when I've run from it all my life to stop the Blight.

He does talk about Duncan but it's 80% 'i miss him, he was great *sniff*" and only 20% "REVENGE".

 

It's not inconceivable to think of a character which ignores the greater good just to get his own revenge and satisfaction. That's fine, and can be great if done well. But Alistair is a character which is willing to sacrifice everything for the greater good... then suddenly gets a cork up his bottom.

 

I don't want to be too aggressive about this, because I can see where newc is coming from and I don't think his pov is illogical or anything. I think I'd have liked it best, in fact, if the internal tension in Alistair between revenge and the greater good was a more consistently explored theme throughout the game. That would have given Alistair's later action a lot more sense, drama and weight.

[Volourn]

Alistair complains A LOT about Logain throughout the entire game. He makes it very clear that he wants Loghain to pay. And, oh, him doing what he does doesn't mean he's turning his back on Feralden or not gonna to fight the blight. he turns his back on YOU because he feels you betrayed his trust. He does not turn his back on his mission. Since when does one have to travel with the PC to have the goal to stop the bLight. Talk about selfish, and arrogance on part of the PC to think that way.

 

Perhaps, Alistair will form his own party to do the job - a party he can trust and who respects him enough not to spit in his face, his ideals, and his mentor. I seriously doubt he simply went into the wilds to sing koombya.

[Hurlshort]

My view on Alistair leaving was:

 

 

He was pretty quick to accept marrying Loghain's daughter you think he'd be a little less bloodthirsty about his future father-in-law. It was a bit silly, for sure, given his demeanor throughout. Still, I liked the fact you had to make a tough choice there.

 

[Aristes]

*ignores the Alistair conversation.

 

I thought Wynne's history is cool. In fact, she's become one of my favorite characters.

[Oner]

Listen to her banter with Oghren.

[Volourn]

Yeha, those two should just have sex and be done with it. L0L

[Gorth]

I think there is generally a lot of good banter in that game

 

Thread is getting a bit long. More dragons here