Dragon age discussion

[HoonDing]

Blame the overreaction of how people vocally claime dthey were 'overpowered' and 'broke' the game. *shrug* This is silly BIO listening to foolish fans who don't know what they want. The loudest may win; but they often are very wrong.

 

It's why these spells are 'broken'; but somehow 100SR% is not even though it actually is.

 

Nope, its just slightly overzealous balancing. But thanks.

Then one might wonder why Bio didn't nerf Mana Clash? It's an unresistable "Finger of Death" spell for enemy mages. And since most mobs only have one mage...

[Monte Carlo]

With regards to Crushing Prison -

 

It still does the same damage over a much shorter period (9 s).

 

Which means that it's actually deadlier than it was before - it might not paralyse you for as long but it's just as likely to kill you and, for a player character, add some alacrity to the "chug poultices quicker than taking damage" racing mini-game.

[Bos_hybrid]

Both Alistair and Morrigan are petulant, selfish little children.

 

No. They are real characters, that you can't bend to your will constantly, not the cardboard cutouts that flip to your way of thinking at the last moment or purr at whatever you do. Why shouldn't you be able to turn Morrigan into a sweet little bunny that doesn't drop you the minute she get what she needs? Or turn Alistiar into a hard as nails King that can see Loghain might be useful? Why should Wynne and Lelianna react to a certain choice? Why should Sten be annoyed at all the kitty saving? Let just have them all as bland instruments to your will, with no agenda or personality of their own.

 

It's always this way with strong characters. Whinging.

[Enoch]

Both Alistair and Morrigan are petulant, selfish little children.

 

No. They are real characters, that you can't bend to your will constantly, not the cardboard cutouts that flip to your way of thinking at the last moment or purr at whatever you do. Why shouldn't you be able to turn Morrigan into a sweet little bunny that doesn't drop you the minute she get what she needs? Or turn Alistiar into a hard as nails King that can see Loghain might be useful? Why should Wynne and Lelianna react to a certain choice? Why should Sten be annoyed at all the kitty saving? Let just have them all as bland instruments to your will, with no agenda or personality of their own.

 

It's always this way with strong characters. Whinging.

Not my point. I have nothing against strong characters with agendas and personalities. (Although I would quibble with the relative strength of the character design, that's a separate discussion.) I was simply pointing out that the agendas and personalities that these two particular characters exhibit towards the close of the game make them wholly unlikeable. Not because they disagreed with me, but because they were selfish, petulent, and irrational in doing so. Making the two JNPCs most central to the game's story and appeal so unlikeable is ... an odd choice.

 

(Oh, and you should probably tag the spoilers.)

Edited December 9, 2009 by Enoch

[Monte Carlo]

I agree with Enoch. I went the 'canon' story route and those two characters were as nice as pie (or as nice as Morrigan gets).

 

I think it's fair to say that Bioware sort of want you to play the game a certain way, and like a lot of writers they want you to love their NPCs as much as they do. That's their style, I no longer bitch about it, and I like the ending but the game is still a bit too... rigid for my personal tastes. Let's be honest, in a better CRPG you'd be able to kill Morrigan. And push Alistair off a cliff. Etc.

 

Morrigan and Alistair are foisted on you even more than certain key NPCs were in BG2... I've not played Mass Effect, nor am I likely too but apparently this is similar and has become the Bio house style.

 

Cheers

MC

[HoonDing]

I thought Morrigan becomes quite likable once her approval gets to 'friendly'. Didn't happen on my first playthrough though because I took her along in that one.

 

As for Alistair... after a certain 'decision' near the end I thought he would take off a mask and reveal the face of Carth Onasi. *shrug*

[newc0253]

I don't mind that a story has locked-in components, and that includes some of the NPC choices & fates.

 

Maybe it's inevitable that Morrigan leaves, regardless of whether she loves you or hates you (I dunno, i haven't played every ending). What matters is that, whichever way it is played, it's as plausible as any other.

[Tigranes]

I agree that it's fine to have strong-minded NPCs and the choicdes M & A make in endgame are pretty plausible. What is *not* plausible is the choices YOU can make and which of your choices have influence. I mean, think about it. In the name of necessity, you can persuade Alistair to

get into a random arranged marriage, become a King when he's avoided it all his life, and even sleep with Morrigan for some crazy 'sex rite' as he calls it

. You can do all that relatively simply, after one or two dialogue choices, but you can't persuade him to

stay and fight the blight even if Loghain lives

, in fact, the game basically says ARE YOU SURE?!!?. To me that doesn't work.

[Volourn]

"but because they were selfish, petulent, and irrational in doing so."

 

Selfish may be arguable.

 

Petulent, nope.

 

Irrational - absolutely not espicially in Morrigan's case. Your under the mistaken impression that Morrigan's goals are the same as yours. They obvious aren't. You seem to forget she was FORCED to go with you. In fcat, if you ask her at any time 'why are you still here?' she give smajor dissaproval and very likely leaves unless you apologize for even asking such a dumb question.

 

 

"Morrigan and Alistair are foisted on"

 

Alistair, yes, Morrigan no. You can tell her to take a hike basically any time you want, and she doesn't cry about it. She simply leaves. Remember, as far as being 'foisted' on someone, Morrigan being in the party is at least at first not her choices. That is mommy dearest doing.

 

As for as BIO/OBS games go, DA is probably the most 'open' when it comes to keeping or kicking npcs since NWN as KOTOR, JE, ME, KOTOR2, and NWN2 makes it evry ahrd to say no. You can flat out kill DA npcs, and all but one cna be told to get lost. In fact, you can inadvernately have two DA npcs 'die' without even interacting with them at all.

 

 

"Let's be honest, in a better CRPG you'd be able to kill Morrigan. And push Alistair off a cliff. Etc."

 

Nah. That's nea rimpossible because there ar every few games better than DA. Certain no BIO or Obsidian game. Or Interplay, Troika, Ff, or whatever.

 

 

"Making the two JNPCs most central to the game's story and appeal so unlikeable is ... an odd choice."

 

An opinion that many disagree with, and most importantly I don't. Though, I'm not a huge fan of Alistair. What makes these two characters great is they aren't cookie cutter 'yes men'. They have opinions, thoughts, ideals, and if you don't live up to them they will let you know.

 

Morrigan was extremely likeable (and, no, just her looks as I've hated plenty of 'attractive npcs, r00fles!) even despite some of her negative personality traits. That makes her more real which makes her even more likeable.

[newc0253]

I agree that it's fine to have strong-minded NPCs and the choicdes M & A make in endgame are pretty plausible. What is *not* plausible is the choices YOU can make and which of your choices have influence. I mean, think about it. In the name of necessity, you can persuade Alistair to

get into a random arranged marriage, become a King when he's avoided it all his life, and even sleep with Morrigan for some crazy 'sex rite' as he calls it

. You can do all that relatively simply, after one or two dialogue choices, but you can't persuade him to

stay and fight the blight even if Loghain lives

, in fact, the game basically says ARE YOU SURE?!!?. To me that doesn't work.

 

I have no problem with <that event> being a dealbreaker for Alistair. Every second exchange with him seemed to involve him getting misty-eyed over Duncan's death and his love for the Grey Wardens. He was ambivalent about the throne and - as for sex with Morrigan -

hey, the guy's never had sex

. But

pardoning the guy who murdered Duncan and, worse, the prospect of inducting him into the Wardens?

. I was taken aback by the strength of his reaction on the first playthrough, but i have absolutely no problem with it being a core tenet of his being.

[Aristes]

Okay, I'm ready to be spoiled on two counts, mostly just out of sheer laziness. First of all, is there anywhere I can find a steady source of deep mushrooms, distilling agents, and concentrator agents? I *never* have enough stinking potions. Also, I keep seeing comments about Shale and Oheren or some such. Where are they? I have Chevron the bumbling assassing, Leliana, Alistair, Sten, Doggie, Morrigan, and Wynne so far. I don't know that I care to replace them, but I'm curious if I've missed some NPCs. So far, I've done everything I could readily access in Redclifffe, the Forest, the Tower, and Denerim (although I can't get into the alienage or some parts of the city yet). I'm currently in a frozen dungeony ruins area trying to find something to help Alistair's ol' Arl.

 

This game rocks and, surprise surprise, it's more addictive now than when I started. Huzzah! I hear the ending in a bit of a drag, but I'll have to wait and see on that as I haven't gotten there yet.

[entrerix]

erm, arent there unlimited distilling and concentrator agents for sale in your camp? or am i remembering wrong?

 

as for mushrooms i cant help you, i ate them already and now im ten feet tall and jumping on goombas.

Edited December 10, 2009 by entrerix

[newc0253]

You meet Oghren in

Orzammer

.

 

Shale you have to shell out for (literally, he's in the DLC).

Edited December 10, 2009 by newc0253

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Shale you have to shell out for (literally, he's in the DLC).

 

The free DLC. If you bought a new copy you should have the key to unlock him.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Deadly_Nightshade

[~Di]

Kreia done wrong?

 

Much truth there. My first game I must have lost 20 approval points from Morri doing tasks like

looking for the blacksmith's daughter and rescuing the girl's kid brother

. I mean, really. In Lothering, walking into a merchant/crowd

fight cutscene that couldn't be avoided, even attempting to resolve the problem lost me another 5 points.

Rubbish. I got to the point that I wouldn't take her into towns where I might get side quests because I couldn't afford to keep buying her jewelry to get her to like me again.

 

Playing a mage now, and I love that I don't need her at all. She can warm her cold ass in the camp from now on.

[~Di]

...btw, thanks to Di's prompting we went ahead and played the mage origin. in fact, to be fair, we has now played all the origins. am not sure if we would claim that the mage origin presented us with moral ambiguity. sure, having already played through the game once we had meta-knowledge regarding some important mage origin characters. nevertheless, depending on your pov, you could make a mage origin choice secure in knowledge that you were doing the right thing... were no true no-win. nevertheless, we did like that the choice were hard, if not gray... not that it genuine mattered in the end. actually, of all the origins we would say we enjoyed the mage one the most. is sad that the resources allocated to the dahlish portion were so obvious inferior to those of the other origins. as the dahlish art not gets recycled in game it were understandably poor compared to other origins. nevertheless, we actually thinks it were pretty solid...

 

I enjoyed the mage origin story as well. For me the choice was really difficult. From my character's POV,

she had a choice between betraying her friends or betraying her respected superior, First Enchantor Irving.

For me the choice between two distinct betrayals left a very sour taste; I felt like crap either way. As a player, however, I liked the fact that for my character it seemed a lose-lose situation. Made more of an emotional impact that way. Glad you played it, and appreciate your feedback.

[Gorgon]

I just had 'fade to black sex' with an elven transvestite prostitute, which my girl didn't seem to mind in the least.

 

 

I figure I'm about 2/3 done with the game, but the grind is getting to me and the challenge of combat tactics has worn off. The game lacks a bit in atmosphere and interesting characters.

 

You really ought to have a chance to rebuild the NPCs completely just after they join you. I mean you discover what works through trial and error, why not acknowledge that. Also why not allow mages to unlearn a spell in favor of another one every other level.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Gorgon

[Aristes]

erm, arent there unlimited distilling and concentrator agents for sale in your camp? or am i remembering wrong?

 

as for mushrooms i cant help you, i ate them already and now im ten feet tall and jumping on goombas.

Oh. Well. What's that over there?

[jaguars4ever]

Just for clarification:

 

Was Flemeth's plan to

get Morrigan impregnated with spermtastic Grey Warden baby so that she could come along and body-snatch Morrigan, and have her very own Dragon-God mama's boy

?

[Oner]

Just for clarification:

 

Was Flemeth's plan to

get Morrigan impregnated with spermtastic Grey Warden baby so that she could come along and body-snatch Morrigan, and have her very own Dragon-God mama's boy

?

No,

it was to possess Morrigan and live longer.

 

[Gromnir]

I agree that it's fine to have strong-minded NPCs and the choicdes M & A make in endgame are pretty plausible. What is *not* plausible is the choices YOU can make and which of your choices have influence. I mean, think about it. In the name of necessity, you can persuade Alistair to

get into a random arranged marriage, become a King when he's avoided it all his life, and even sleep with Morrigan for some crazy 'sex rite' as he calls it

. You can do all that relatively simply, after one or two dialogue choices, but you can't persuade him to

stay and fight the blight even if Loghain lives

, in fact, the game basically says ARE YOU SURE?!!?. To me that doesn't work.

 

I have no problem with <that event> being a dealbreaker for Alistair. Every second exchange with him seemed to involve him getting misty-eyed over Duncan's death and his love for the Grey Wardens. He was ambivalent about the throne and - as for sex with Morrigan -

hey, the guy's never had sex

. But

pardoning the guy who murdered Duncan and, worse, the prospect of inducting him into the Wardens?

. I was taken aback by the strength of his reaction on the first playthrough, but i have absolutely no problem with it being a core tenet of his being.

 

and darkness will sweep over the world, and all that you know will be reduced to blood and ash.

 

 

allistar is sudden transformed from jellyfish to a resolute defender o' Justice, and he is willing to watch the world burn for the sake of his loyalty to the memory of one man: Duncan. is that it? as players we know that the blight will be defeated, but please recall that we is 'posed to genuine believe that the world is imperiled. allistar has seen the archdemon in his nightmares and he knows better than anybody what sort of cataclysm is about to befall Fereldan. what would duncan say? duncan, the guy who, out of "necessity," pinned ser snivels-alot with a dagger to preserve the secrecy o' the gray warden initiation?

 

allister: but he Killed duncan. i don't wanna play no more if you have loghain on your team.

 

am sorry, but is no way you can tell us that allister's behavior ain't childish and petulant. have allister promise that after the archdemon is slain he will find some way to make you and loghain pay? sure, we could see that, but given the way the story is presented, am simply not able to swallow al's reaction.

 

and as for morrigan...

 

her wacky godchild scenario is a take-it-or-leave-it deal that is sudden dropped in your lap like a bloated carp that were washed up on the shore o' lake erie and stewing in its own juices for a couple days.

 

"Sayonara, you mercenary bia!tch. Given a choice between letting you use Gromnir's tool as a strop for a rusty razor blade or acceding to your demands to produce a god-spawn, we would choose the razor any day of the week and twice on Tuesday. Don't bother sending us the address of the asylum you eventually check yourself into, 'cause we won't be showing up on visiting days."

 

is morrigan petulant and childish? maybe not, but clearly, she is selfish and untrustworthy, especially as she only fills you in on her plan at the 11th hour. the fact that morrigan is selfish not bother us at all, as it is in keeping with her character. as we noted before, we were predicting her eventual defection... or something similar. nope, the only thing that bothered us were the whole nutty God Child tripe used as an excuse. THAT were bio's best? no, really?

 

 

bah.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited December 10, 2009 by Gromnir

[Tigranes]

Okay, I'm ready to be spoiled on two counts, mostly just out of sheer laziness. First of all, is there anywhere I can find a steady source of deep mushrooms, distilling agents, and concentrator agents? I *never* have enough stinking potions. Also, I keep seeing comments about Shale and Oheren or some such. Where are they? I have Chevron the bumbling assassing, Leliana, Alistair, Sten, Doggie, Morrigan, and Wynne so far. I don't know that I care to replace them, but I'm curious if I've missed some NPCs. So far, I've done everything I could readily access in Redclifffe, the Forest, the Tower, and Denerim (although I can't get into the alienage or some parts of the city yet). I'm currently in a frozen dungeony ruins area trying to find something to help Alistair's ol' Arl.

 

Answers:

 

99 Deep Mushrooms from Ruck, a crazy little dwarf in Ortan Thaig, Deep Roads. Otherwise, no.

Unlimited Distill/Conc/Corr agents at Camp.

Shale is a DLC character, but the DLC is free for most people (in your box). If you have the DLC enable it, then go to Sulcher's Pass on your map, on the west between Frostback Mountains and Redcliffe. The map icon should be in gold. If you can't enable the DLC, it's a bitch to get working, look in Bio forums for general help.

Oghren joins you when you are about to enter the Deep Roads, in Orzammar.

 

 

I agree with Grommy on Alistair, btw, that's why it bothered me. Morrigan didn't bother me so much, I think it would have been fine if they didn't keep thrusting sex in there every single chance they get. Get a life, devs.

[~Di]

If that's Alistair's behavior when you let Logain live, I agree, it goes totally against the core ethics he has shown throughout the game. In fact, at one point you can ask Alistair

"What if we both just leave?" He's horrified, and replies something to the effect that you and he are the last Gray Wardens in Fereldan. It is our duty to stop the blight, or die trying.

So for him to just dump his duty and stomp out at such a crucial moment goes against everything he supposedly stands for. Bad move on Bio's part. Very bad move.

 

Of course I didn't have that problem, since there is no way on earth I'm letting the scum who killed Duncan take another breath.

[Bos_hybrid]

Making the two JNPCs most central to the game's story and appeal so unlikeable is ... an odd choice.

 

To you maybe, I personally liked them more then any other NPC in RPGs. See there, a difference of taste. In fact I would say Morrigan is Bio's best written female character by a long way and Alistair their best leading male character.

 

(Oh, and you should probably tag the spoilers.)

 

 

I think it's fair to say that Bioware sort of want you to play the game a certain way, and like a lot of writers they want you to love their NPCs as much as they do.

 

I think DG and the fellow writters knew the Morrigan character was going to get a lot of hate. Yet they persisted with the character, that doesn't happen enough.

 

I agree that it's fine to have strong-minded NPCs and the choicdes M & A make in endgame are pretty plausible. What is *not* plausible is the choices YOU can make and which of your choices have influence. I mean, think about it. In the name of necessity, you can persuade Alistair to

get into a random arranged marriage, become a King when he's avoided it all his life, and even sleep with Morrigan for some crazy 'sex rite' as he calls it

. You can do all that relatively simply, after one or two dialogue choices, but you can't persuade him to

stay and fight the blight even if Loghain lives

, in fact, the game basically says ARE YOU SURE?!!?. To me that doesn't work.

 

People have there limit.

Your asking him to let the man who caused the death of his mentor and all his fellow grey wardens to live, but not only that, you then want to make said character a grey warden.

That's a lot different then asking him to

sleep with some attractive woman he dislikes, so you or him can cheat death.

 

 

Much truth there. My first game I must have lost 20 approval points from Morri doing tasks like

looking for the blacksmith's daughter and rescuing the girl's kid brother

. I mean, really. In Lothering, walking into a merchant/crowd

fight cutscene that couldn't be avoided, even attempting to resolve the problem lost me another 5 points.

Rubbish. I got to the point that I wouldn't take her into towns where I might get side quests because I couldn't afford to keep buying her jewelry to get her to like me again.

 

It really depends on the type of character people like to play. I tend to play RPGs as either a neutral/anti-hero or 'evil' charcters so as a result I never had that problem with Morrigan, in fact I never had to give her a gift (beside those

books

) to get her to 100%, leaving me with a whole lot of excess jewelry that was useless. So in some ways you could say for those characters she is too easy to get along with. Leliana however is just expensive either way.

 

I think it would have been fine if they didn't keep thrusting sex in there every single chance they get. Get a life, devs.

 

And then there are people on the Bio boards crying for MOAR. Personally doesn't bother me either way. But honestly you best get used to seeing sex in games, it's prevalent in film and literature and it was always only a matter of time before it happened in games too.

[jaguars4ever]

Just for clarification:

 

Was Flemeth's plan to

get Morrigan impregnated with spermtastic Grey Warden baby so that she could come along and body-snatch Morrigan, and have her very own Dragon-God mama's boy

?

No,

it was to possess Morrigan and live longer.

 

That goes without saying. However, the fact that she

instructed Morrigan to perform the ritual implies that she wanted Morrigan to be impregnated.

. So the inference drawn from that is

that she must have wanted to have the baby as her own after possessing Morrigan as a means to extend her life

.