First failed state?

[Wrath of Dagon]

Hell all tehy have to do is cross on legitimate tourist visas and decamp.

Then you go looking for those. They'd need fake documents etc. No single solution will work, there has to be a system in place, but right now we're doing virtually nothing except for show.

[Hurlshort]

Or we could just help make Mexico a less corrupt and more stable government and economy, eliminating the desire of millions of immigrants to leave their homeland to seek out better opportunities.

 

But hey, that might mess up the rampant discrimination and bigotry we've got going here, so never mind.

[Gorgon]

Dagon better hurry up with his endl

[Nihilus5078]

Calicornia? Haha, nice one

[Killian Kalthorne]

Or we could just help make Mexico a less corrupt and more stable government and economy, eliminating the desire of millions of immigrants to leave their homeland to seek out better opportunities.

 

But hey, that might mess up the rampant discrimination and bigotry we've got going here, so never mind.

 

If a nation cannot stand on its own then it should fall.

[~Di]

Are we arguing that illegal immigration is the problem in California?

There is no argument, it's a problem, period end of story if you don't think it is well good on you but it's a huge issue.

 

 

Though hasn't it always been a problem? Or has it gotten worse?

 

It's gotten much, much worse. Twenty times worse since Reagan declared amnesty to the then-1/2 million illegals in the USA. Now there are between 15-20 million illegals, and it hits the border states hard. The cost of required bilingual education has skyrocketed. Over 60 hospitals closed in California alone from 1993-2003, bankrupted by the enormous cost of providing services to illegals. It's estimated that more than 70-80% of hospital births in some border states are to illegals, and the cost is not reimbursed. Illegals have jobs in all areas of the economy, but because they are using stolen green card or social security numbers, they don't pay state or federal income taxes... and in fact make life a nightmare for the real owners of those stolen numbers, who are charged with taxes on income they never received.

 

And half of the prisoners in our over-crowded prison system are illegals. The cost of housing them is enormous. Nobody wants to do anything about it because they're afraid of losing the Hispanic vote. Thing is, there are a hell of a lot of legal immigrants who resent those who didn't wait their turn. The legal immigrants are suffering the backlash for problems caused by the illegals.

 

Yeah. It's a big problem. Big. Problem.

 

 

Do you have any idea where I could get the prison numbers? The best I found was this document from this page. The page seems to have a bit of a left slant during my brief look this evening, though the document itself has been referenced on a couple of sites now. Unfortunately it doesn't do an analysis of illegal immigrants.

 

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/200...27/114208.shtml

 

"Justice Dept. Figures on Incarcerated Illegals"......"As Investors Business Daily reported in March 2005:

 

"The U.S. Justice Department estimated that 270,000 illegal immigrants served jail time nationally in 2003. Of those, 108,000 were in California. Some estimates show illegals now make up half of California's prison population"

 

 

Wikipedia (ugh) certainly agrees with your position that illegal immigration is much higher now than it was. By my findings the Amnesty in the 80s applied to roughly 3 million illegal immigrants, but the wiki link shows 12 million illegal immigrants entered the United States from 2000 to January 2006. Three million of them into California specifically. I don't know what the rates were prior to that though.

 

Nobody knows the exact number because schools, hospitals, welfare departments, even law enforcement are not allowed to ask about legal status. However, the 12 million figure is a lowball estimate used by one political faction, and 20 million is the highball estimate used by the other political faction. These numbers have been used for years, and everyone agrees that between 1 and 2 million illegals enter the USA every year. Therefore, I think my 15-20 million estimate is probably pretty danged accurate, since between 3 and 6 million have illegally entered since January 2006, which your Wiki source quotes.

 

EDIT: I found a different document that addresses just immigration and incarceration.

 

I will preface this by saying I have NOT yet read it in its entirety, but I did find a comment on page 7:

 

In 2005, there were 28,279 foreignborn adults and 139,419 U.S.-born adults in California prisons.

 

According to the article, foreignborn counts both citizen and noncitizen, and they define "noncitizen" as "A foreign-born person who is not a naturalized U.S. citizen. Noncitizens may be in the country legally on a permanent or temporary visa (tourist, business, or student) or may be in the country illegally."

 

"Foreign born" has nothing to do with the discussion of illegals. There are millions of "foreign born" non-citizens in this country who have permission to live and work here.

 

Harping on the exact number of illegals in the country does nothing to address the very real facts that the sheer volume has caused massive problems in all facets of our economy and our society. You seem focused on challenging numbers, and are ignoring the problems. That's something that has always annoyed me, that people who do not live here repeated tell those of us who do that there is no problem. Really pretty danged arrogant, actually.

Edited October 9, 2009 by ~Di

[Wrath of Dagon]

Or we could just help make Mexico a less corrupt and more stable government and economy, eliminating the desire of millions of immigrants to leave their homeland to seek out better opportunities.

 

So easy, why didn't I think of that!?

 

Edit:

Dagon better hurry up with his endl

Edited October 9, 2009 by Wrath of Dagon

[alanschu]

"Foreign born" has nothing to do with the discussion of illegals. There are millions of "foreign born" non-citizens in this country who have permission to live and work here.

 

In the link, the specify that "foreign born" includes BOTH legal and illegal immigrants.

 

 

"A foreign-born person who is not a naturalized U.S. citizen. Noncitizens may be in the country legally on a permanent or temporary visa (tourist, business, or student) or may be in the country illegally."

 

How does the number, from the Public Policy Institute of California, not apply? Yes the number isn't how many illegals are in the prisons, because it's an upper bound meaning the number of illegals in the prison system couldn't be larger than that figure. Unless there is something I am not understanding. If the PPIC's numbers and claims are wrong, then tell me. I'm a big believer in the scientific method and if someone can demonstrate why their numbers are poor, I'll go with that.

 

The link you had had a 2001 quote from

 

 

Harping on the exact number of illegals in the country does nothing to address the very real facts that the sheer volume has caused massive problems in all facets of our economy and our society. You seem focused on challenging numbers, and are ignoring the problems. That's something that has always annoyed me, that people who do not live here repeated tell those of us who do that there is no problem. Really pretty danged arrogant, actually.

 

You call me arrogant which is interesting. I am focused on the numbers, because when people such as yourself state that half the inmates in California prisons are illegal immigrants as an example of how illegal immigrants are a big problem, I'm curious to see if that's the truth. Because if it's not, then I wonder if other aspects of the situation are exaggerated because it's a convenient scapegoat. I look at the numbers, because what I "think" and "believe" might be the case, is often wrong.

 

I deal with similar type stuff all the time here in Alberta, where people are quick to blame a lot of our problems on the First Nations people in the area. I used to buy into the same line of thought until I looked into the numbers, and started to read peer-reviewed analysis of the situation, and learned that a lot of it is, in fact, myth.

 

I'm less willing to believe the word of a few people when I don't know them particularly well, and when I have seen examples of their previous biases on these forums. Everyone has biases and I'm not going to judge them for that, but simply because someone lives in California does not make them an expert on the illegal immigration system. There mere fact that that person lives there and has a personal stake can just as easily compromise their perspective because of their biases. I'd be more concerned that my opinion was wrong, however, if it wasn't for the fact that people living IN California also agree with my skepticism. One of them is on this board: Hurlshot. Is he arrogant too?

[Kelverin]

One of them is on this board: Hurlshot. Is he arrogant too?

Arrogant? Maybe, holier-than-thou? Without a doubt. His main concern seems to be the price he has to pay for fruits and vegetables, those that do not agree with him are bigots and racists, you tell me who is arrogant?

 

I do not know all the numbers and what they mean beyond the fact that health care costs, education, police and any number of public services have been effected by illegals here in a negative way to deny that fact is ignorant of whats happening here. I have intimate knowledge of illegals, and their plight, not only that but a profound knowledge of visa and immigration laws. I don't need to read about it or post links to educate you, you are responsible for that yourself. When discussing politics it usually does not matter anyway since all involved have their own agenda and find facts to back up their beliefs. That's why I hate discussing this crap, it's pointless, and time consuming.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Kelverin

[Humodour]

Or we could just help make Mexico a less corrupt and more stable government and economy, eliminating the desire of millions of immigrants to leave their homeland to seek out better opportunities.

 

But hey, that might mess up the rampant discrimination and bigotry we've got going here, so never mind.

 

If a nation cannot stand on its own then it should fall.

 

 

God you're barbaric.

[Killian Kalthorne]

I'm human. Humans, by their very nature, are barbaric and have very little redeeming value. Nations rise and nations fall, it has been going on for thousands of years before I was born and it will continue to happen for thousands of years after I am dead. Trying to stop it is like an average Joe standing on railroad tracks believing he can stop a bullet train with his bare hands.

[Amentep]

I have intimate knowledge of illegals

 

 

I'm human. Humans, by their very nature, are barbaric and have very little redeeming value. Nations rise and nations fall, it has been going on for thousands of years before I was born and it will continue to happen for thousands of years after I am dead. Trying to stop it is like an average Joe standing on railroad tracks believing he can stop a bullet train with his bare hands.

 

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." - Edmund Burke

[Humodour]

I'm human. Humans, by their very nature, are barbaric and have very little redeeming value. Nations rise and nations fall, it has been going on for thousands of years before I was born and it will continue to happen for thousands of years after I am dead. Trying to stop it is like an average Joe standing on railroad tracks believing he can stop a bullet train with his bare hands.

 

Thanks for the lesson on social Darwinism. Thankfully, the world left the Nazis behind long ago.

[213374U]

Yeah, that's the ticket! When everything else fails, bring up the Nazis.

[Humodour]

Yeah, that's the ticket! When everything else fails, bring up the Nazis.

 

I'm on the ticket, though. Visceris is advocating social Darwinism, and about the only ideology that managed to even briefly survive on that in the past 100 years has been Nazism and its fascist allies. It's a barren ideology and it's galling to see him championing it.

 

Nobody in their right mind these days should want to see another state (especially not a neighbouring country) fail just because, sitting in his chair in front of his computer screen, he doesn't think it is strong enough to deserve to persist.

 

If Mexico collapsed or degraded, illegal immigration wouldn't be just a problem in the headlines every 2nd week anymore, it'd be a full blown national crisis for America that would cause persistently constrained economic growth (and more likely a prolonged depression), let alone the social impacts.

[Rosbjerg]

This thread had already gone far off-topic, but most seem to find the immigration angle interesting. The psycho analysis of certain members is however not interesting.

[213374U]

I'm on the ticket, though. Visceris is advocating social Darwinism, and about the only ideology that managed to even briefly survive on that in the past 100 years has been Nazism and its fascist allies. It's a barren ideology and it's galling to see him championing it.

And, ironically enough, Nazi Germany failed rather spectacularly. Not the way they intended to prove their theories, I'm sure, but it's good enough anyway.

 

Social Darwinism doesn't need your approval and doesn't care about your contempt - much like its biological counterpart, it's apparently the way of the world. But since there's no analog to the scientific method for history, there will always be some people that cling to sweet fantasies of dream lands where everyone can be happy and all conflicts can be solved through words alone.

 

 

Nobody in their right mind these days should want to see another state (especially not a neighbouring country) fail just because, sitting in his chair in front of his computer screen, he doesn't think it is strong enough to deserve to persist.

 

If Mexico collapsed or degraded, illegal immigration wouldn't be just a problem in the headlines every 2nd week anymore, it'd be a full blown national crisis for America that would cause persistently constrained economic growth (and more likely a prolonged depression), let alone the social impacts.

True. Anyone wishing for their neighbouring countries to fail should take a look at Somalia for a reality check on what failed states look like.

[Killian Kalthorne]

If Mexico collapsed or degraded, illegal immigration wouldn't be just a problem in the headlines every 2nd week anymore, it'd be a full blown national crisis for America that would cause persistently constrained economic growth (and more likely a prolonged depression), let alone the social impacts.

 

And in the long run, if the US survives, would become a much stronger nation of the blending of the two cultures. Do I wish Mexico to fall? No. But if it happens it will be because of its leadership and they will have no one to blame but themselves.

[Guard Dog]

California is am excellent example of irresponsible government run amok. Too bad this thread got sidetracked because it would have made for interesting discussion. Illegal immigration is a problem, no one can dispute that. But it is not the root cause of California's issues. The root cause is out of control spending coupled with abuse of the tax payers. And that cannot be blamed on the bad US eceonomy as a whole because even this article points out that the exodus of people began back in 2004 when the economy was fine.

 

The US is still a free country (for a little while longer at least). If your home state has punitive taxation and regulation you can move to a different state and escape it. If state malfeasence is damaging you business, you are free to fire all of your employees, move the business to a different state and start over there. And that new state would probably love to have you. In the US state government policy does not happen in a vaccum.

 

This is why Marx said for socialism to work in must be inescapable.

[Wrath of Dagon]

This is why Marx said for socialism to work in must be inescapable.

And then it still doesn't work, but it's inescapable.

 

Btw, illegal immigration is intimately related to Cal's problems, because it's the political changes enabled by illegal immigration that caused the problems to start with. Remember that governor, Pete something?

 

Edit: Wilson I meant. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Pr...tion_187_(1994) Read the analysis. Wilson left California with a 16 billion surplus.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Wrath of Dagon

[Killian Kalthorne]

Why do you guys think that Iowa's film industry got a kick. We were making it cheaper to make movies here than in California. Mind you our current governor wants to remove those tax breaks which would be a bad idea in the long run, but Guard Dog is right. Hey, it would be pretty cool if Obsidian moved to Ames. :D

[alanschu]

When discussing politics it usually does not matter anyway since all involved have their own agenda and find facts to back up their beliefs.

 

Arrogant indeed. Coming from the guy that picks and chooses which facts he wishes to believe from the very link he decides to post.

 

 

I don't need to read about it or post links to educate you, you are responsible for that yourself.

 

Convenient. Or are you just trying to save face after posting a link that mentions that perhaps the illegal immigrant situation may actually have long term benefits. Don't blame me because you decided to find the closest article that supports your your agenda and went about finding the facts to back up your beliefs, only to find that that article had stuff in there that you don't actually support.

 

 

I have intimate knowledge of illegals, and their plight, not only that but a profound knowledge of visa and immigration laws.

 

So you say I'm responsible for digging deeper for stuff. So I'll start digging deeper: In what ways are you intimately knowledgeable about illegal immigrants, and how are your profoundly knowledgeable about visas and immigration laws? What sort of information has given you particular expertise about the situation aside from "living there?" Where can I go to get a better view of the situation?

 

 

 

EDIT:

Give Guard Dog a cookie as his view is very similar to mine.

 

When I see businesses fleeing a region I start to look at common reasons why. Taxation and restrictions (like minimum wages) are often a prime candidate for me to scrutinize. When I hear about Schwarzenegger taking a pay cut so that he can film Terminator 3 in California to support the local movie production facilities, I see an economy that has, for some reason, decided to price itself out of the market.

 

A reason why I don't like the illegal immigration scapegoat is in conjunction with these things, is that they get additional vitriol because people "lose jobs" to the illegal immigrants, precisely because they are able to undercut things like the minimum wage. Removing minimum wage would fix this problem right out of the box AND remove much of the system wide perception (and hatred in many cases) of illegals undercutting the price of labour. Legitimate citizens still disadvantaged because they have to pay tax while working those lower wages? Give them tax relief. They'll take that money and reinvest it back into the economy through consumption, making businesses more profitable and California more appealing to the businesses that are leaving.

Edited October 9, 2009 by alanschu

[Rosbjerg]

A reason why I don't like the illegal immigration scapegoat is in conjunction with these things, is that they get additional vitriol because people "lose jobs" to the illegal immigrants, precisely because they are able to undercut things like the minimum wage. Removing minimum wage would fix this problem right out of the box AND remove much of the system wide perception (and hatred in many cases) of illegals undercutting the price of labour. Legitimate citizens still disadvantaged because they have to pay tax while working those lower wages? Give them tax relief. They'll take that money and reinvest it back into the economy through consumption, making businesses more profitable and California more appealing to the businesses that are leaving.

 

The minimum wage is there to make sure people aren't screwed over by their employees, precisely because of cheap illegal labour.. removing the minimum wage would seriously hurt the people who have to work in those low paying jobs, unless you give them tax cuts, as you say.. But that's the best case scenario, most likely big companies would drive the wages down and try to get around paying their own taxes through various loopholes, it's easier to tax the companies by making sure you have a high minimum wage and then tax the people working. that way the employees aren't affected, but the companies can't get around paying their taxes.

[Hurlshort]

Yesterday it took me an hour and a half to drive about 30 miles to get to work, and there weren't any accidents. It was just heavy heavy traffic. What the heck is going on, I thought everyone was out of work?!?

[Wrath of Dagon]

it's easier to tax the companies by making sure you have a high minimum wage and then tax the people working. that way the employees aren't affected, but the companies can't get around paying their taxes.

People making minimum wage don't pay any taxes. Well, they pay social security but they get a tax credit for that.