First failed state?

[mkreku]

And then it still doesn't work, but it's inescapable.

It doesn't work? And it hasn't worked for Sweden for the last 100 years?

 

For knowing so little, you sure do have a lot of opinions.

[Hurlshort]

it's easier to tax the companies by making sure you have a high minimum wage and then tax the people working. that way the employees aren't affected, but the companies can't get around paying their taxes.

People making minimum wage don't pay any taxes. Well, they pay social security but they get a tax credit for that.

 

That's true I believe. There is a cutoff point depending on what you make, and if you work 40 hours a week with minimum wage you are probably under it. It was $12,000 when I was young, but I'm sure it has changed. That is one of the reasons that taking the majority of illegal workers and making them citizens is considered more costly. They wouldn't be paying much in taxes and they would be eligible for a lot more programs that cost the government money.

[Rosbjerg]

I was proposing raising the wage to a point where the employee had to pay taxes, but that extra earning goes to the goverment instead. So the employee would not feel a difference, but the goverment would.

 

Problem here is that, given your current models, it would hurt small businesses way too much.

[Killian Kalthorne]

I rather have us get rid of income tax altogether and simply have a scalable federal sales tax in place. We are a consumer based society people.

 

$.01 - $100 5%

$101 - $1000 8%

$1001 - $10000 12%

$10001 - $50000 15%

$50001 - $150000 20%

$150001+ 25%

 

Think how many candy bars that are sold a year, then have 5% of that revenue go directly to the government. We ould get rid of Income tax, and downsize the government by getting rid of the IRS.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I rather have us get rid of income tax altogether and simply have a scalable federal sales tax in place. We are a consumer based society people.

 

$.01 - $100 5%

$101 - $1000 8%

$1001 - $10000 12%

$10001 - $50000 15%

$50001 - $150000 20%

$150001+ 25%

 

Think how many candy bars that are sold a year, then have 5% of that revenue go directly to the government. We ould get rid of Income tax, and downsize the government by getting rid of the IRS.

How would you know how much someone has spent per year?

 

And then it still doesn't work, but it's inescapable.

It doesn't work? And it hasn't worked for Sweden for the last 100 years?

 

For knowing so little, you sure do have a lot of opinions.

Swedish government owns all means of production? I wasn't aware.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Wrath of Dagon

[alanschu]

And then it still doesn't work, but it's inescapable.

It doesn't work? And it hasn't worked for Sweden for the last 100 years?

 

For knowing so little, you sure do have a lot of opinions.

 

As long as they are backed up right!

[Killian Kalthorne]

You wouldn't pay it at the end of year, silly WoD. You pay the tax when at the time of purchase. If you by a game for $60 you would pay the 5% tax right there. If you decide to buy a $2000 computer or expensive jewelry you would pay the 12% tax at the point of purchase. Of course non-taxed items such as milk, meats, and the such would remain untaxed.

[Asol]

Yesterday it took me an hour and a half to drive about 30 miles to get to work, and there weren't any accidents. It was just heavy heavy traffic. What the heck is going on, I thought everyone was out of work?!?

 

Must be all those state and federal employees Di was talking about clogging the roads.

[Wrath of Dagon]

You wouldn't pay it at the end of year, silly WoD. You pay the tax when at the time of purchase. If you by a game for $60 you would pay the 5% tax right there. If you decide to buy a $2000 computer or expensive jewelry you would pay the 12% tax at the point of purchase. Of course non-taxed items such as milk, meats, and the such would remain untaxed.

What if I buy my computer in $60 pieces? I think such a system would still be regressive and ripe for exploitation. The best tax would be a flat income tax with a per person exemption.

[Darth InSidious]

You wouldn't pay it at the end of year, silly WoD. You pay the tax when at the time of purchase. If you by a game for $60 you would pay the 5% tax right there. If you decide to buy a $2000 computer or expensive jewelry you would pay the 12% tax at the point of purchase. Of course non-taxed items such as milk, meats, and the such would remain untaxed.

So... scaled VAT as a replacement for income tax?

[Killian Kalthorne]

You wouldn't pay it at the end of year, silly WoD. You pay the tax when at the time of purchase. If you by a game for $60 you would pay the 5% tax right there. If you decide to buy a $2000 computer or expensive jewelry you would pay the 12% tax at the point of purchase. Of course non-taxed items such as milk, meats, and the such would remain untaxed.

So... scaled VAT as a replacement for income tax?

Yep.

 

Only time you pay taxes is when you pay for a taxable item.

[~Di]

California is am excellent example of irresponsible government run amok. Too bad this thread got sidetracked because it would have made for interesting discussion. Illegal immigration is a problem, no one can dispute that. But it is not the root cause of California's issues. The root cause is out of control spending coupled with abuse of the tax payers. And that cannot be blamed on the bad US eceonomy as a whole because even this article points out that the exodus of people began back in 2004 when the economy was fine.

 

The US is still a free country (for a little while longer at least). If your home state has punitive taxation and regulation you can move to a different state and escape it. If state malfeasence is damaging you business, you are free to fire all of your employees, move the business to a different state and start over there. And that new state would probably love to have you. In the US state government policy does not happen in a vaccum.

 

This is why Marx said for socialism to work in must be inescapable.

 

Exactly. That's precisely what I said in my post #160.

 

Illegals are indeed an immense drain on California's economy, but the bigger drain are California's public service unions. California's state employees are the highest paid in the nation. Our prison guards are also the highest paid in the nation. And since they're all unionized, California is stuck with contracts that prohibit the kind of cuts we need to balance our budget. Add to that a completely whacked out, spend-spend-spend ultra-liberal legislature that lavishes itself with dozens of highly-paid staffers, junkets around the globe at state expense, and new automobiles for all every danged year... THAT is why California is struggling and nearly bankrupt.

 

There is enough money to give Californians what they need; there just isn't enough to give the unions and spend-thrift legislators what they want for themselves as well. Not any more.

 

...Which was ignored in order to nag on about the issue of illegals, apparently more fun to hassle folks over than the real problem: An inept, spend-thrift legislature.

Edited October 10, 2009 by ~Di

[Killian Kalthorne]

Can't we take care both problems?

[Guard Dog]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...id=ahpLpu9sKLyY

 

A little nod to Di, Alanschu, Numbers, and of course to me and a few others for nailing the problem. I would not buy California bonds right now even if they accepted payment in dried dog poop.

[Killian Kalthorne]

California is in desperate need of an overhaul. In a recent budget shortfall here in Iowa the Governor basically stripped 10% of the budget off of all state agencies, without the need of approval from our state Congress. The people of California will have some harsh times ahead. They will either need to increase taxes across the board or, I don't know, stop spending so much money.

[Guard Dog]

stop spending so much money.

 

This is the right answer.

[Darth InSidious]

You wouldn't pay it at the end of year, silly WoD. You pay the tax when at the time of purchase. If you by a game for $60 you would pay the 5% tax right there. If you decide to buy a $2000 computer or expensive jewelry you would pay the 12% tax at the point of purchase. Of course non-taxed items such as milk, meats, and the such would remain untaxed.

So... scaled VAT as a replacement for income tax?

Yep.

 

Only time you pay taxes is when you pay for a taxable item.

There is one small problem, which is that this will not be adopted universally; the reason this is a problem is that:

 

a) You are not an island-state;

b) It is not 1600, so even if you were, sea-crossing is quite safe.

 

What I mean is that people will simply cross the state border to buy anything of size - i.e., the stuff on which you'd make the bulkier amounts of tax.

 

There are probably other problems, too, like the resultant higher prices in your state, but I'm not an economist, and can't be bothered to work them out.

[Guard Dog]

And the cycle begins elsewhere: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/tax_ref...71UXIc0i6cd3UpK

[alanschu]

I blame Ellis Island

[Gorth]

The lowest exodus of tax payers in an eight year period (which peaked in 2005), I don't get it how that is bad?

 

Other than they are still leaving of course, albeit at a lower rate. Rich people always seems to gravitate towards places with either a: lower taxes or b: better revenue opportunities or c: both. It should be up there with Newtons laws

[Killian Kalthorne]

They should come to Iowa.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Speaking of immigration: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics...er-adviser.html I wonder if Labor learned this trick from Democrats or Democrats from Labor.

[vault_overseer]

At least you Guv'nor aint afraid to speak his mind looooool

 

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/...to-legislature/

[Oerwinde]

Does anyone here understand the cost of legal immigration? The application alone is something like $2500, and that doesn't guarantee you entry. Plus there's immigration lawyers, and savings requirements. A few years back I was in a serious relationship with a girl in the US and she wanted me to look into moving down there. It was going to cost me between 6 and 10 thousand just to be allowed to live there. Not counting moving costs. Plus the steep requirements if you don't have a job offer or sponsor. I don't blame the mexicans for bypassing that crap and just jumping the fence.

 

The relationship ended because I never wanted to move down there in the first place. I'm not giving up my socialised medicine and other such things even if I have to pay twice as much for food and booze.

 

And a note on illegals taking jobs: Change tax and benefits laws. One of my friends has a boyfriend from California, he moved up here illegally and we were trying to find him a job. No one would hire him under the table for more than small jobs or temp work because even if they paid him 4-6 bucks an hour (minimum wage is 8 ) what they lose out in government benefits from not hiring someone with a Social Insurance Number outweighed what they wouldn't have to pay him. Not to mention liabilities in the case of an accident.

Edited October 29, 2009 by Oerwinde

[Darth InSidious]

Speaking of immigration: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics...er-adviser.html I wonder if Labor learned this trick from Democrats or Democrats from Labor.

America isn't the centre of the world, and the policies of our Labour party and your Democratic Party are quite different.

 

Despite everything, NuLab aren't a far-right party.