So Fallout 3

[Syraxis]

they had to tear it apart and reorder everything in order to do so

 

Or strip it down in its entirety.

[Hurlshort]

Are you two just making stuff up? How does that make the game less successful?

[Nepenthe]

Are you two just making stuff up? How does that make the game less successful?

 

It's less 1337. And these guys are so 1337 they sh*t binary.

[HoonDing]

You do realize that in FO3, you can start with a base 25 skill in small guns and completely max the skill without ever spending an actual level up skill point on it.

Even with a 1 in Intelligence it is theoretically possible to max out all skills in FO3...

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

That's just sad. :/

[Purkake]

Anyone who has problems with having Int 1 and being able to max out your skills in FO3 needs a hobby, preferably multiple ones, now.

[vault_overseer]

Anyone who has problems with having Int 1 and being able to max out your skills in FO3 needs a hobby, preferably multiple ones, now.

 

No, it's an absolutely valid and easy to make point. It proves that the game mechanics are broken, that's a huge problem in an RPG.

[Purkake]

Yet it doesn't make the game any less playable, just easier.

[alanschu]

I disagree that that proves the game mechanics are broken.

[vault_overseer]

Yet it doesn't make the game any less playable, just easier.

 

For some, it does, as it makes the game much less enjoyable. For some, it's a huge drawback and I can absolutely see where they're coming from. It doesn't bother me that much, but I can't say it doesn't bother me at all.

[Nepenthe]

Anyone who has problems with having Int 1 and being able to max out your skills in FO3 needs a hobby, preferably multiple ones, now.

 

I agree.

 

Anyone who goes through the hoops of maxing their skills in FO3 with an int 1 character needs a couple of more.

[Purkake]

If for someone, the game is ultimately about the stats, they are doing it wrong. Nothing wrong with disliking it, but as I implied before, it's just nitpicking.

 

And, for full disclosure, I did not like FO3 as a game.(it had nothing to do with being able to max out all my skills with Int 1, though)

[Hurlshort]

I pay very little attention to stats in single player RPG's. If you really are concerned with min/maxing and all that junk, go play MMO's where the entire game is designed around it.

[vault_overseer]

If for someone, the game is ultimately about the stats, they are doing it wrong. Nothing wrong with disliking it, but as I implied before, it's just nitpicking.

 

And, for full disclosure, I did not like FO3 as a game.(it had nothing to do with being able to max out all my skills with Int 1, though)

 

It's just one of many problems with the game. Obviously, on its own, it wouldn't be that big of a deal, but when combined with many other problems, its annoyance multiplies exponentially.

[Purkake]

Then why did you say that it makes the game "much less enjoyable", on it's own it is totally irrelevant, just another nitpick to throw on the "Bethesda hate pile".

[vault_overseer]

Then why did you say that it makes the game "much less enjoyable", on it's own it is totally irrelevant, just another nitpick to throw on the "Bethesda hate pile".

Because it does, for some people.

[Slowtrain]

I don't think you can say it is a broken system, since Bethesda most likely intentionally designed it that way. SO it is working as intended, ie not broken.

 

 

However, I would certainly wonder why one would spend time developing a skill system and then make design choices that render that skill system meaningless.

 

If you don't want gamers to be limited be a skill system fine. Lots of great games don't have skill systems. But then why spend time devolping and implementing one in the first place?

[alanschu]

However, I would certainly wonder why one would spend time developing a skill system and then make design choices that render that skill system meaningless.

 

 

I still disagree that the system is "meaningless."

 

It's pretty obvious what it does, and that if you spend points in a particular skill you'll get better at it. You don't start the game off with 100 in every skill, and on my playthrough I only hit 100 in small guns.

 

If I metagame and/or am fully exploratory, then yeah, I'll have a lot of skill points. It's just the game rewarding a player for being thorough, it doesn't make the skill system meaningless.

[Gorgon]

The skill points are unbalanced, I think everyone agrees and Special points should not be purchasable every level. FO2 had some pretty funny dialogue options if you had 1 int. Personally I'm not a fan of point buy systems at all. I usually cheat so I can get my character the way I want. With FO3 there was just no need, it was mind numbingly easy once you had hamstered enough gear and enough levels.

[Slowtrain]

However, I would certainly wonder why one would spend time developing a skill system and then make design choices that render that skill system meaningless.

 

 

I still disagree that the system is "meaningless."

 

It's pretty obvious what it does, and that if you spend points in a particular skill you'll get better at it. You don't start the game off with 100 in every skill, and on my playthrough I only hit 100 in small guns.

 

If I metagame and/or am fully exploratory, then yeah, I'll have a lot of skill points. It's just the game rewarding a player for being thorough, it doesn't make the skill system meaningless.

 

 

You don't really get that much better though. Except for those few areas which are hardlocked to skill level (trap disarming, lock picking) there really isn't much of a difference between a 40 skill and a 70 skill.

 

Is there a difference between a 20 and a 100, yeah, sure definitely. Its not that huge though. And when you add to that how easy it is for any character to get all their skills high in the first place, I get confused as to why there is a skil system in the first place. It's not a bad thing to not have a skil system. So if you don't reaally want one, don't put one in.

 

By You, I mean Bethesda, of course.

[alanschu]

I disagree.

 

But at the same time, I used VATS a lot, so the improvements that I saw from skill points were quite prevalent.

[Slowtrain]

With FO3 there was just no need, it was mind numbingly easy once you had hamstered enough gear and enough levels.

 

 

Fo3 was most fun from about levels 1-5, then it crashed and burned in a hurry. By level 10 it was pretty numbing. For a variety of reasons. But even with a low int of 4 or 5 I pretty much had no need to spend skill points after level 10-12.

[Mamoulian War]

With FO3 there was just no need, it was mind numbingly easy once you had hamstered enough gear and enough levels.

 

I can say the same about FO1 and FO2...

[Slowtrain]

I disagree.

 

But at the same time, I used VATS a lot, so the improvements that I saw from skill points were quite prevalent.

 

 

That's definitely a valid point. I tend to forget that because I never used VATS my impressions of FO3 are going to be somewhat different from people who used VATS a lot.

[Raithe]

The major point I missed was the end sequence. You had no real feel for how you'd affected the surrounding communities/groups by the end of the game. At least, not beyond the "oo I was good and purified the water" or "oo I was evil and put in the anti-mutant goop".

 

The slow but brief picture montage gave a few hints, but one of the key points to FO1 & 2 (at least to me) was the run off of the various groups, and how they developed in the years after the game due to what I did. I felt like there were serious consequences from my actions within game (and I could replay the game and make different choices, and it would be apparent in how groups survived/grew/became extinct).

And that was what really seemed lacking from FO3.

 

Maybe it was just that I played through the game, and was expecting to hear things like what happened with the Republic of Dave after you interfered with the election.. or how the former slaves you helped (or hindered) with the Lincoln monument turned out. Whether by running rampage through Paradise Falls changed the slavers/raiders in the area or not.. and then at the end.. boom.. or lack of boom.

Even if you add the Broken Steel DLC, you don't have any real feeling of consequences from your actions.

 

To an extent it was interesting to roll along with the central storyline, some of the side quests were fun in their way, and some amusing game time. A helluva lot better then Oblivion. But yeah, was lacking a certain something.