Oner Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 People hate the amnesia thing today, but many of us are quite okay with it in Planescape: Torment, for example. I find KotOR 2-s amnesiac beginning a funny example, as a lot of people don't realise that the amnesia goes as far as..a week? And it's just temporary too. Are you referring to KOTOR's amnesia? It's hard to say it only lasts a week when there's really no context of time given in the game. You spent 2 days on Peragus, and I doubt the trip on the Harbringer (or whatever it's name was) took more then a couple of days, especially since you didn't even arrive at the destination. But anyway, my point was that it wasn't a complete amnesia with "Who am I?"; it was temporary, and you lost a few days only, most of them spent unconscious. Even within cliches, there are different levels of acceptance. Take me, for example. I don't mind elves and dwarves and whatnot. Having the cliched notions of elves and dwarves doesn't bother me. However, I would like to see elves and dwarves used in a different way. I don't offer it as a serious setting, but I do think the idea of dwarves being the big guys on the block and the elves, through no real fault of their own, being the new upstarts who threaten the status quo. I think cliches will be with us for a long time. Hell, I'm all for it. However, it would be nice to see a game that doesn't depict the same old notions we have in sooooo many computer games. Downtrodden 'demi-humans.' Humans who are the most vigorous and widespread. It is so tiring to see the same ideas recycled. Usually I'm bothered most when they just take a typical fantasy creature and rename it. Giveaway list: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DgyQFpOJvyNASt8A12ipyV_iwpLXg_yltGG5mffvSwo/edit?usp=sharing What is glass but tortured sand?Never forget! '12.01.13.
Aristes Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 Hell, that's World of Warcraft. I mean, instead of crocodiles, they're crocolisks? Instead of scorpions, they're scorpids? Good Lord, man! haha Still, WoW is one big cliche, and that's fine because you know what it is when you get it.
HoonDing Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 DA's Elves seem a knock-off of Sapkowski's ones, locked into 'ghettos' and others rebelling against the human tyranny like the Scoia'tael in the Witcher, and humans building their civilization on the ruins of the Elder Races' cities. This is unlike most high fantasy, where the Elves & Dwarves are at friendly terms with the humans, but usually estranged due to humans breeding like rabbits. DA's Dwarves seem to just stay in their mountain/underground realms as in all high fantasy (neglected as always, even Tolkien's history of the Dwarves was perfunctory at best). As for the so-called "Darkspawn", I guess they'd be corrupted Elves like Tolkien's Orcs or specially bred villains like the Uruk-hai or Jordan's Trollocs? That'd be typical for the setting. The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
Magister Lajciak Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 Does that make it generic, or does that just make it fit within a particular genre? Isn't there a bit of familiarity with making a fantasy game with making a fantasy game that has Elves and Dwarves. The type of context that helps people establish a sense of the setting? Would people still be happy buying a fantasy game that is set with races called the Hibone, Jeebway, and Marklarks? Maybe "happy" is not the best word to use, but hopefully you know what I mean. I remember people criticizing Alpha Protocol because Michael Thorton "looked generic." Well, what exactly are people hoping for with respect to a spy? Though perhaps appropriately, when I see your examples of great evils, lame farmboys, and village burning down, I would consider those cliches. Were people hoping that elves and dwarves wouldn't be in Dragon Age? Would people have been happier if elves are subterranean mountain dwellers, and dwarves living in the forest? People hate the amnesia thing today, but many of us are quite okay with it in Planescape: Torment, for example. It's not about renaming elves and dwarves into something different, it's about them always having the same basic features. Elves are always the wild, lean, keen-sighted people who live a long time and suffer from a superiority complex while dwarves are the short, grumpy bearded people who live underground. Sure, but these features define these races. Yes, we could make a game, where the elves are humble, short, fat humanoids with poor eyesight and a short lifespan, but there would be no reason to call such a race elves at all. I don't see the point of artificially changing these tropes and in fact welcome being able to recognize an elf for an elf across games. Being different for the sake of being different is not good game design, IMO.
Oner Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 Aw, but messing with tropes is half the fun. Giveaway list: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DgyQFpOJvyNASt8A12ipyV_iwpLXg_yltGG5mffvSwo/edit?usp=sharing What is glass but tortured sand?Never forget! '12.01.13.
Maria Caliban Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 DA's Elves seem a knock-off of Sapkowski's ones, locked into 'ghettos' and others rebelling against the human tyranny like the Scoia'tael in the Witcher, and humans building their civilization on the ruins of the Elder Races' cities. This is unlike most high fantasy, where the Elves & Dwarves are at friendly terms with the humans, but usually estranged due to humans breeding like rabbits. DA's Dwarves seem to just stay in their mountain/underground realms as in all high fantasy (neglected as always, even Tolkien's history of the Dwarves was perfunctory at best). As for the so-called "Darkspawn", I guess they'd be corrupted Elves like Tolkien's Orcs or specially bred villains like the Uruk-hai or Jordan's Trollocs? That'd be typical for the setting. What about the qunari? They're a race from the north (where it's tropical), they have basic gunpowder and follow a spiritual practice similar to Buddhism. What race do you think they're like? "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon.
Oner Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 What about the qunari? They're a race from the north (where it's tropical), they have basic gunpowder and follow a spiritual practice similar to Buddhism. What race do you think they're like? Umm...jamaican trolls with guns? Giveaway list: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DgyQFpOJvyNASt8A12ipyV_iwpLXg_yltGG5mffvSwo/edit?usp=sharing What is glass but tortured sand?Never forget! '12.01.13.
Pidesco Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 What about the qunari? They're a race from the north (where it's tropical), they have basic gunpowder and follow a spiritual practice similar to Buddhism. What race do you think they're like? Umm...jamaican trolls with guns? That's the stuff of awesomeness. "My hovercraft is full of eels!" - Hungarian touristI am Dan Quayle of the Romans.I want to tattoo a map of the Netherlands on my nether lands.Heja Sverige!!Everyone should cuffawkle more.The wrench is your friend.
HoonDing Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 What about the qunari? They're a race from the north (where it's tropical), they have basic gunpowder and follow a spiritual practice similar to Buddhism. What race do you think they're like? They seem to be the quintessential warrior race that are big about honour, inherent to any fantasy/sci fi setting. Like the Klingons from Star Trek or the Aiel from Wheel of Time. The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
Purkake Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 (edited) It's not about renaming elves and dwarves into something different, it's about them always having the same basic features. Elves are always the wild, lean, keen-sighted people who live a long time and suffer from a superiority complex while dwarves are the short, grumpy bearded people who live underground. Sure, but these features define these races. Yes, we could make a game, where the elves are humble, short, fat humanoids with poor eyesight and a short lifespan, but there would be no reason to call such a race elves at all. I don't see the point of artificially changing these tropes and in fact welcome being able to recognize an elf for an elf across games. Being different for the sake of being different is not good game design, IMO. My point was that I want new stuff, I don't want elves or dwarves, because I pretty much know all about them, I want the developers to use some creativity instead of using the most common fantasy stuff. I'm speaking more generally about all fantasy settings, I know that Dragon Age is going to be what it's going to be. What about the qunari? They're a race from the north (where it's tropical), they have basic gunpowder and follow a spiritual practice similar to Buddhism. What race do you think they're like? Umm...jamaican trolls with guns? Shadowrun trolls? Edited July 2, 2009 by Purkake
Maria Caliban Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 What about the qunari? They're a race from the north (where it's tropical), they have basic gunpowder and follow a spiritual practice similar to Buddhism. What race do you think they're like? Umm...jamaican trolls with guns? That's the stuff of awesomeness. I did like what WoW did with its trolls. They seem to be the quintessential warrior race that are big about honour, inherent to any fantasy/sci fi setting. Like the Klingons from Star Trek or the Aiel from Wheel of Time. I got more that they were militant religious fanatics. The Klingons killed their gods and the Aiel weren't all that pious. They're more like the Fremen after Mu'habib got to them. However, they're more technologically advanced than the inhabitants of Thedas. "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon.
HoonDing Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 I should've thought about the Fremen, but it's 29 The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
Maria Caliban Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 (edited) Black Whirlwind is a deeply underappreciated character. That said, I don't know how to type Sten yet. Mary Kirby wrote him, and this is the first BioWare game she's done. Whenever she talks about character action, it's mostly in the form of jokes. Me: Sorry, Sten. You have to play the token minority character in Dragon Age. Get out there and sacrifice yourself so that pretty, pretty Alistair can live.Sten: No. Me: But the forums have spoken! Someone's gotta die! Sten: I'm not a "minority." I'm a foreigner. Let the elf do it. His people are the ones being oppressed by an unfair societal racial bias. Zevran: He does have a point. We elves are the demonized minority in this game. Alistair: Wait a second... what's this about my life being in danger? Morrigan: Ooops. Look at that. It seems I accidentally went ahead and clicked on the "Alistair dies a painful, painful death." option while everyone was arguing. What a pity. Alistair: Hey! You're not the player character! You don't get to make dialogue choices! Get away from that conversation file this minute! Dog: Wanders into the conversation dragging a dead archdemon, which he proceeds to try to bury in the middle of camp. Me: Look at what you guys did! You totally missed the whole plot! Sten: Good. It was a silly game, anyway. Didn't someone say there were going to be cookies after the Blight? I want my cookies. Edited July 2, 2009 by Maria Caliban "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon.
alanschu Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 I find conversations with Sten interesting in a weird sort of way. I didn't play much with him this playthrough, so I didn't get to unlock much about him, but some of his conversations I had in my limited interaction with him were quite interesting.
Wrath of Dagon Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 Black Whirlwind is a deeply underappreciated character. I wonder why? He murders a bride on her wedding day just for fun, but gets deeply upset because his brother is involved in some dishonest shenanigans and offs him too. "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan
Maria Caliban Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 I find conversations with Sten interesting in a weird sort of way. I didn't play much with him this playthrough, so I didn't get to unlock much about him, but some of his conversations I had in my limited interaction with him were quite interesting. How is he weird? "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon.
alanschu Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 (edited) I find conversations with Sten interesting in a weird sort of way. I didn't play much with him this playthrough, so I didn't get to unlock much about him, but some of his conversations I had in my limited interaction with him were quite interesting. How is he weird? I can't recall other games that had conversations quite like his. It's the type of thing where if I were to describe a conversation with him to you without context, you'd probably be like "that doesn't sound very interesting," but I think it's just the way the character comes together. Like, imagine yourself explaining to someone what it is like to play SimCity. It doesn't actually sound very fun at all, but when you play it you actually enjoy it. I am looking forward to playing around with him more later. Edited July 2, 2009 by alanschu
Monte Carlo Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 I saw the human noble 'origin' video. And it got me thinking - Bio are gently moving 'traditional' RPGs towards an action-console model in that you don't really get to make a character. In fact, you are choosing a character on a fairly pre-determined arc. In this case you even get your name given to you - Cousland. OK, there are what, six, to choose from? Nonetheless, lets face it, the 'origin' is in fact a story template, and whatever your choice you become a Grey Warden anyway. And Bio are claiming that this gives you more choice? Henry T Ford and the colour options of Model T's springs to mind. And... Does Dragon Age come with a shoe-horn taped to the box? Cheers MC
Purkake Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 I saw the human noble 'origin' video. And it got me thinking - Bio are gently moving 'traditional' RPGs towards an action-console model in that you don't really get to make a character. In fact, you are choosing a character on a fairly pre-determined arc. In this case you even get your name given to you - Cousland. OK, there are what, six, to choose from? Nonetheless, lets face it, the 'origin' is in fact a story template, and whatever your choice you become a Grey Warden anyway. And Bio are claiming that this gives you more choice? Henry T Ford and the colour options of Model T's springs to mind. And... Does Dragon Age come with a shoe-horn taped to the box? Cheers MC The whole Origins thing reminds me of old JRPGs where you choose between figher, monk, black mage, white mage at the start. I like to customize stuff
Maria Caliban Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 (edited) BG had one origin. Planescape Torment had one origin. Fallout had one origin. The 'wandering adventurer with no backstory imposed upon you' was done in NWN and it added nothing to the game. Neverwinter Night 2 had one origins. Arcanum had a dozen backstories that have you +2 a skill but had no effect on the game. What series are you comparing Dragon Age to that gave you more choices in terms of background? Edited July 2, 2009 by Maria Caliban "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon.
Monte Carlo Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 I'm not really. What I'm saying is that the traditional ambiguous origin (which I'll concede isn't necessarily great for story development) coupled with character customisation seems to have been moved on in DA. Hey, that's a decision for Bioware. But this game looks astonishingly linear. You can be a peasant, a ranger or a noble and still the Jedi guy is going to turn up and give you a light sabre. I don't want to be an extra in someone elses story. Yes, I'm a sandbox gamer at heart, I suppose.
Purkake Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 BG had one origin. Planescape Torment had one origin. Fallout had one origin. The 'wandering adventurer with no backstory imposed upon you' was done in NWN and it added nothing to the game. Neverwinter Night 2 had one origins. Arcanum had a dozen backstories that have you +2 a skill but had no effect on the game. What series are you comparing Dragon Age to that gave you more choices in terms of background? I was actually talking more the mechanical side. The backstory has never really been that important, it was pretty much left up to your imagination. I got to define my character by my actions, it didn't matter whether my dwarf was a nobleman(dwarf) or an outcast. It's especially lame when all the origins still lead you to become the Gray Warden.
kirottu Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 BG had one origin. Planescape Torment had one origin. Fallout had one origin. The 'wandering adventurer with no backstory imposed upon you' was done in NWN and it added nothing to the game. Neverwinter Night 2 had one origins. Arcanum had a dozen backstories that have you +2 a skill but had no effect on the game. What series are you comparing Dragon Age to that gave you more choices in terms of background? I was actually talking more the mechanical side. The backstory has never really been that important, it was pretty much left up to your imagination. I got to define my character by my actions, it didn't matter whether my dwarf was a nobleman(dwarf) or an outcast. It's especially lame when all the origins still lead you to become the Gray Warden. Oh please. Becoming grey warden is simply one of the points that connects the story. Every rpg ever made has those. This post is not to be enjoyed, discussed, or referenced on company time.
Purkake Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 BG had one origin. Planescape Torment had one origin. Fallout had one origin. The 'wandering adventurer with no backstory imposed upon you' was done in NWN and it added nothing to the game. Neverwinter Night 2 had one origins. Arcanum had a dozen backstories that have you +2 a skill but had no effect on the game. What series are you comparing Dragon Age to that gave you more choices in terms of background? I was actually talking more the mechanical side. The backstory has never really been that important, it was pretty much left up to your imagination. I got to define my character by my actions, it didn't matter whether my dwarf was a nobleman(dwarf) or an outcast. It's especially lame when all the origins still lead you to become the Gray Warden. Oh please. Becoming grey warden is simply one of the points that connects the story. Every rpg ever made has those. I can see that. I my problem is with the fact that it used to be YOUR character, now you get to choose from six of their characters.
kirottu Posted July 2, 2009 Posted July 2, 2009 I my problem is with the fact that it used to be YOUR character, now you get to choose from six of their characters. I read the Human Noble origin and it This post is not to be enjoyed, discussed, or referenced on company time.
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