Decisions and consequences in games

[Azure79]

So I've been reading up on some Mass Effect 2 news and apparently

Shepard can die

as a direct consequence of the decisions you've made throughout the game.

 

Just wanted some thoughts on how games, in particular RPGs should handle this situation. Do you think its fair for the developers to take control of your character's fate? Especially if you've spent hours with that character and have grown attached to them? Of course this fate might come about through the culmination of certain decisions the player has made throughout the game, but what if those decisions don't really give any indication of your character's ultimate fate?

 

I don't think I would mind that much if the character's fate was well integrated into the overall plot of the story. But I do think I would like the chance to help my character avoid that fate. Instead of a given a cutscene where control over my character is taken away from me, I would like the option to be given direct control over my character at that crucial moment and then be presented with a gameplay sequence that is extremely challenging. There would only be a limited number of times to attempt this sequence before the game moved on.

 

What do you guys think?

[213374U]

Bloodlines did this. It garnered massive amounts of whining, despite fitting the setting perfectly. I applaud the devs for their bravery, but foresee loads of nerdrage as a result.

[Purkake]

Slight spoiler? Really?

 

Also, I'm pretty sure it's going to be a choice

like a big sacrifice jump-into-the-lava-ala-Alien3

and not just something that happens spontaneously because you didn't help an old lady cross the space street.

Edited June 10, 2009 by Purkake

[Oner]

 

Ashley: Look, PC! It's the Old Lady you didn't help to get across the street!

Old Lady: Indeed, I didn't not forget your impoliteness, but since I'm a decent Old Lady, I help Shepard here to cross over... into the Underworld! *headshots Shepard* Bwahahahahaha!

 

[Purkake]

Ashley: Look, PC! It's the Old Lady you didn't help to get across the street!

Old Lady: Indeed, I didn't not forget your impoliteness, but since I'm a decent Old Lady, I help Shepard here to cross over... into the Underworld! *headshots Shepard* Bwahahahahaha!

 

That's pretty much how I imagined it.

 

It would be fun if

they killed you in the end for being such a douche(renegade)

 

[HoonDing]

Dead

? So we will be able to

enslave the galaxy with necromancy

in the third instalment?

[Niten_Ryu]

I still bet that Bioware will choose lame option and allow Shepard to come back as Geth (maybe not in ME2 but in ME3)

[Morgoth]

Well Sheppard obviously won't die in the middle of the game because you have invested so much into his skills etc. but I could imagine that he dies in a heroic way in the end, and makes place for a new protagonist that will probably already be introduced in ME2.

[Enoch]

I am such a sucker for this kind of thing. Anytime the makers of a game/series/film/whatever have an opportunity to throw a giant story-based "FU!" to their fanboys (as opposed to a giant "the newest product totally sucks for other reasons" FU), I become a big fan. But that's probably because I'm a heartless bastard who gets an inordinate amount of satisfaction from schadenfreude.

 

The first time I played ME, I was actually rooting for the council to be right, and for the Prothean-Psychic-Friends-Network message Shepard got from the beacon to be wholly unreliable.

[Purkake]

I guess it's nice to have the option, I'm not really a crazy Shepard fan, but my Shepard probably wouldn't sacrifice herself. I hope they make it something more original than the lame "I'll hold them off, you run!".

 

It would also be nice if choosing to stay alive had some interesting complications...(but no half-geth crap please)

[Maria Caliban]

And leave poor Liara to raise ShepBaby all alone?

[Llyranor]

The only place Liara needs to be is dead in a ditch with Hades smothering her as any other celestial body would for her incessant stupidity.

[Tigranes]

I thought it'd be similar to FO3, where you can make the decision to

sacrifice Shepard

right at the end.

 

There's no problem if (a) the situation makes sense and there are enough reasons for you to commit to such an act, and (b) if the direct consequences of that action on the world, or the gameplay alternatives offered to you afterwards (i.e. in ME3) were rewarding enough that you feel like you've been on a rollercoaster rather than you've been robbed of something. Of course, FO3 failed at both of these in this particular case, which is why you ended up feeling exactly that, robbed for no reason.

 

It would be interesting if the manner in which it was done here was a bit different, i.e. a galactic trial or falling away into nothingness (a la Eureka Seven).

[Purkake]

And leave poor Liara to raise ShepBaby all alone?

 

They get pregnant from females as well right? Damn, should have had the option to use protection. The Asari are like intergalactic whores always trying to get everyone's babies. I guess it's better than you getting pregnant with Kaiden's cursed lovechild...

Edited June 11, 2009 by Purkake

[Oner]

There's no problem if (a) the situation makes sense and there are enough reasons for you to commit to such an act, and (b) if the direct consequences of that action on the world, or the gameplay alternatives offered to you afterwards (i.e. in ME3) were rewarding enough that you feel like you've been on a rollercoaster rather than you've been robbed of something. Of course, FO3 failed at both of these in this particular case, which is why you ended up feeling exactly that, robbed for no reason.

And C) don't give me two choices if you're gonna tell me I'm an a-hole for not choosing the one you want.

[Aristes]

I think reflecting consequences for choices the player makes on behalf of the PC is perfectly reasonable. In fact, I don't think the suggested consequence is gutsy at all. Ho hum. Been there. Done that.

 

How about something that takes real balls? How about the corporate council isn't cartoonishly evil? How about the earth friendly ewoks aren't loveably good? Maybe give the player choices and then show that, while his heart might have been in the right place, siding with those tree hugging ewoks undermined the economy so thoroughly that civil unrest led to millions upon millions of deaths and the aftermath of the war was more devastating to the environment than those evil corporate could could have matched in a hundred years?

 

The second someone takes a capitalistic view in a CRPG, you know who one of the villains is right away. Sure, they might just be stupidly greedy rather than outright evil, but that's only if they're under the control of the real UBG.

[Purkake]

I think reflecting consequences for choices the player makes on behalf of the PC is perfectly reasonable. In fact, I don't think the suggested consequence is gutsy at all. Ho hum. Been there. Done that.

 

How about something that takes real balls? How about the corporate council isn't cartoonishly evil? How about the earth friendly ewoks aren't loveably good? Maybe give the player choices and then show that, while his heart might have been in the right place, siding with those tree hugging ewoks undermined the economy so thoroughly that civil unrest led to millions upon millions of deaths and the aftermath of the war was more devastating to the environment than those evil corporate could could have matched in a hundred years?

 

The second someone takes a capitalistic view in a CRPG, you know who one of the villains is right away. Sure, they might just be stupidly greedy rather than outright evil, but that's only if they're under the control of the real UBG.

 

But, but.. it had a whole settlement of people controlled by a giant mushroom. That's gutsy right?

[Aristes]

American McGee's Alice was a good game! Wait. Damn it! That was a caterpillar.

[Purkake]

Speaking of choice and consequence it would be nice to have a game where the "good" choice actually meant personal sacrifice and not giving you extra XP and a reward. How many people would choose the good path if it actually meant physical disfigurement or permanently losing a party member with no reward what so ever. How about actually making the evil path desirable with useful rewards and the good path hard and thankless?

 

I love how the choices are always:

 

a) Help them

b) Help them and be a jerk about it

c) Set their dog on fire

Edited June 11, 2009 by Purkake

[Aristes]

I think games more and more are actually penalizing good paths more and rewarding evil paths more. Of course, they do it in the most stupid and assinine ways possible. The latest posts in the punctuation thread are a good example. I think a lot of developers are starting to see that folks who want to be really good or evil are willing to do so regardless. I thought Mask of the Betrayer managed to nail this idea.

 

I think being truly good and truly evil should be difficult in a game. It should be easier to play the middle ground. Most of the rewards for playing good or evil should be outside of gameplay. That is to say, I don't think they should give the best gameplay mechanic rewards, but instead give wonderful story rewards. A few good gameplay rewards are always nice for the PC, but make folks suffer for trying to be the all around saint or the complete and utter scum bag. Most folks in real life are punished for being extreme.

 

However, I don't want a game deciding what's good or evil in the first place, which makes this whole concept moot in my opinion.

 

Instead of forcing us to view certain actions as right or wrong, let us take those actions with reasonable consequences and then let us decide.

[Purkake]

Some clarification from the latest ListenUP podcast: (not really any new spoilers)

 

 

Apparently the old lady scenario from before is correct. You get the "Shepard dies" ending based on your choices throughout the game, especially the choice of companions. What's more the "Shepard dies" ending is the "wrong" one and ME3 apparently begins with the right one where Shepard doesn't die no matter what you do or at least that's how it sounded.

 

Also you will get all new companions, you will meet the old ones that survived ME1, but they won't be in your party

 

 

Maybe I got it all wrong, but that's what I got from it.

[Wrath of Dagon]

All will be good if I can kill Joker.

[Purkake]

All will be good if I can kill Joker.

 

I always hated his sad sob-story ass as well.

[HoonDing]

I always hated his sad sob-story ass as well.

Seemed like all NPCs, even the Krogan, had a sad sob-story. Taking this into regard, it's surprising there were so few romance options.

[Wrath of Dagon]

- I can do it! I CAN DO IT!!!

 

What a brave little toaster he is, and he's a cripple too!

Edited June 13, 2009 by Wrath of Dagon