The quality of combat in Bloodlines and other games

[J.E. Sawyer]

I think JE is just mad at Troika because they put in BIS Sucks in Bloodlines.

That makes me more sad than mad. My dislike of Bloodlines' combat doesn't have anything to do with Troika. It has to do with the combat in Bloodlines being terrible. Even when it was buggy, I thought ToEE combat was very fun.

 

Ok lets get nit picky at combat eh? Fallout series. Target shot to the head and especially to the eyes should be instant death, which they are not. If you didn't score a critical it only knocked a few hit points off them. Kotor series, blaster fire at some one who isn't wearing armor should either cripple the target or outright kill them depending on where they were hit. Same goes with lightsabers. Hell lightsabers can cut thru most armor. Enemy AI in most games is not tactical or logical.

I'm not equating realism with quality. You're free to do so, but most people don't make that association. I don't think any of the games we're talking about are particularly realistic. I think Fallout's combat was pretty bad in a lot of ways, anyway.

 

Don't get me started on party AI. Icewind Dale had the worse party AI in any game I played. They usually just stood around to "think" before they responded while hordes of the enemy are attacking them and before you know it a few of the weaker party members are dead.

BG/IWD party AI wasn't particularly great, but you had full party control. Using full party control, the IE was responsive and the combat encounters, when designed well (over the course of seven-ish games), were pretty fun. The only combat fun I had in Bloodlines was avoiding gunplay and melee to Theft of Vitae (or whatever the BL equivalent was) everyone I came across.

 

I said for an RPG. I'm not very good at real fighting games, and I hate button mashing hack'n'slash because it's so boring. Obviously if they made JE like Ninja Gaiden, 90% of RPG players would never get through it.

You hate button mashing hack'n'slash because it's so boring, but you enjoyed JE despite the fact that it basically tries to emulate the basic combat style of of a pure action game. Bad action games are button mashing. Good action games are pretty tactical and require more quick thinking than quick button-pressing. Action games also vary a lot in their combo structures. The Ninja Gaiden series has pretty long and complex combos that use two buttons, character state, and stick input to determine what Ryu (or Rachel) does. God of War has a pretty shallow system overall. DMC3 and DMC4 actually had reasonably shallow systems, but the ability to switch styles on the fly gave them amazing depth for "pro players". But I think most people... EVEN RPG PLAYERS... could win DMC4 on Human difficulty. A character like Nero is surprisingly easy to play at that difficulty, and they introduce his mechanics quite gradually.

 

Of course, any/all games of any genre that attempt to have fast-paced combat should have a high framerate. Bloodlines had a good framerate, Oblivion had a good framerate. JE and ME were usually sub-25. Bad news.

[Musopticon?]

I didn't even get to the Jade Golem, Stone Immortal was enough of a win button for me. So was Mirabelle. As for not using them, why would I want to make the game artificially harder? I remember struggling with the clumsy combat system from the very start. It's like they took KotOR 1, streamlined off item use, based fighting on nonsensical energy meters and took all fun out of weapon use by tying both it and bullet time to focus. Not to mention there was often very little inclination to use any of the, admittedly many and varied, powers in your roster since the vast majority were underpowered and/or hampered by the system. Let's not even go to problems with collision detection and reach. Or the horrible horrible target-lock which made combat against groups an exercise in frustration because the alternative is to flail away to their general direction and hit nothing.

 

To add a deep fighting system to an RPG would be a disaster? And most RPG players are lazy idiots with the attention span of a mangy runt. Generalizations sure are fun, huh?

 

I or one would like to see an intricate fighting system in an RPG for change. It's a bit of stretch to call it a disaster before a good attempt is even made. I'm anxious to see what Obsidian is able to do with Alpha Protocol's CQC system, especially if they show even a bit of the same love and dedication their design customary does.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I think CQC is fun and effective, but it is not a complex system. The focus of the game is not dominated by melee combat, so the implementation from the player's perspective is very simple. However, a lot of work has been done to ensure that using CQC feels appropriate and satisfying. I would definitely like to work on a game with a high-focus on melee combat, though.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I said for an RPG. I'm not very good at real fighting games, and I hate button mashing hack'n'slash because it's so boring. Obviously if they made JE like Ninja Gaiden, 90% of RPG players would never get through it.

You hate button mashing hack'n'slash because it's so boring, but you enjoyed JE despite the fact that it basically tries to emulate the basic combat style of of a pure action game. Bad action games are button mashing. Good action games are pretty tactical and require more quick thinking than quick button-pressing. Action games also vary a lot in their combo structures. The Ninja Gaiden series has pretty long and complex combos that use two buttons, character state, and stick input to determine what Ryu (or Rachel) does. God of War has a pretty shallow system overall. DMC3 and DMC4 actually had reasonably shallow systems, but the ability to switch styles on the fly gave them amazing depth for "pro players". But I think most people... EVEN RPG PLAYERS... could win DMC4 on Human difficulty. A character like Nero is surprisingly easy to play at that difficulty, and they introduce his mechanics quite gradually.

 

Of course, any/all games of any genre that attempt to have fast-paced combat should have a high framerate. Bloodlines had a good framerate, Oblivion had a good framerate. JE and ME were usually sub-25. Bad news.

So a pure action game is not button mashing, that was my point. Button mashing is when you hit the same button or several at random as fast as you possibly can to maximize the damage. In Jade you actually had to think about your tactics and when to attack or dodge, although I'll admit it wasn't terribly complex it was challenging for me because I had to react fast. As far as DMC, if you say so, it has a reputation for being brutally difficult, but I don't know enough to comment one way or the other.

 

I'll give the example of Virtua Fighter. To really play the game properly someone like me would have to practice a ton. But for Shenmue the same system was simplified so that almost anyone could get through the critical path. If it wasn't, I'd never have finished the game.

[newc0253]

I think CQC is fun and effective, but it is not a complex system. The focus of the game is not dominated by melee combat, so the implementation from the player's perspective is very simple. However, a lot of work has been done to ensure that using CQC feels appropriate and satisfying. I would definitely like to work on a game with a high-focus on melee combat, though.

what? no Jason Bourne-style combat, complete with shaky cam and super-fast cuts?

 

does this mean will we be able to see what the frak is going on?

[Wrath of Dagon]

II or one would like to see an intricate fighting system in an RPG for change. It's a bit of stretch to call it a disaster before a good attempt is even made.

Yes, you'd literally sell tens of copies. But feel free to invest your millions to find out, no one else seems to be willing to.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I'll give the example of Virtua Fighter. To really play the game properly someone like me would have to practice a ton. But for Shenmue the same system was simplified so that almost anyone could get through the critical path. If it wasn't, I'd never have finished the game.

Virtua Fighter is a fighting game, not an action game. Among fighting games, it also has some of the most absurdly extensive move sets. I don't think I'd suggest that a game outside of the fighting game genre should have as much variety as Virtua Fighter -- it would dominate the focus.

 

what? no Jason Bourne-style combat, complete with shaky cam and super-fast cuts?

 

does this mean will we be able to see what the frak is going on?

I don't think we ever cut the camera when going into or out of CQC. It's a smooth transition from exploration/shooting to CQC and back. Transitions are in small, incremental changes over the course of several hits, to avoid disorienting the player. The camera does shake slightly on impacts, but it isn't earthquake level. It definitely looks and feels a lot different than the hand to hand in Bourne Conspiracy.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I'll give the example of Virtua Fighter. To really play the game properly someone like me would have to practice a ton. But for Shenmue the same system was simplified so that almost anyone could get through the critical path. If it wasn't, I'd never have finished the game.

Virtua Fighter is a fighting game, not an action game. Among fighting games, it also has some of the most absurdly extensive move sets. I don't think I'd suggest that a game outside of the fighting game genre should have as much variety as Virtua Fighter -- it would dominate the focus.

OK, so that was my point. My other points were Jade implemented action combat well, and Ninja Gaiden is way too difficult for the average RPG player.

[J.E. Sawyer]

OK, so that was my point. My other points were Jade implemented action combat well, and Ninja Gaiden is way too difficult for the average RPG player.

There is an enormous spectrum of difficulty and complexity between something like Jade Empire and Virtua Fighter or Ninja Gaiden. Jade Emprie could have had the exact same basic movesets and AI, but significantly better input processing, hit detection, and framerate and been a hell of a lot better. The quality of combat has less to do with player-side complexity (which often comes to a player's personal preference) and more to do with the fundamentals of how combat feels.

 

EDIT: Also, please stop putting up straw men. No one argued for Virtua Fighter-level combo chains in an RPG (that I saw).

[Wrath of Dagon]

Well, I didn't notice all those problems being that serious, not enough to spoil my fun anyway. I don't play a lot of fighting/action type games either. I played Soul Calibur a little, and you can either memorize and practice the combos, or button mash. Neither of those would be desirable for an RPG IMO.

 

Edit: I'm not putting up any strawmen. Xard mentioned Ninja Gaiden, Tekken, and DOA. My point was that VF was simplified a lot for Shenmue, to the point where it was on the level of Jade combat.

Edited August 28, 2008 by Wrath of Dagon

[Hurlshort]

The best thing about the Bloodlines combat was that it didn't last long.

[Musopticon?]

Seriously though, as long the CQC is responsive, unlike Jade Empire, I'm all for it.

[Gromnir]

OK, so that was my point. My other points were Jade implemented action combat well, and Ninja Gaiden is way too difficult for the average RPG player.

There is an enormous spectrum of difficulty and complexity between something like Jade Empire and Virtua Fighter or Ninja Gaiden. Jade Emprie could have had the exact same basic movesets and AI, but significantly better input processing, hit detection, and framerate and been a hell of a lot better. The quality of combat has less to do with player-side complexity (which often comes to a player's personal preference) and more to do with the fundamentals of how combat feels.

 

EDIT: Also, please stop putting up straw men. No one argued for Virtua Fighter-level combo chains in an RPG (that I saw).

 

you got chocolate in my peanut butter.

 

well, you got peanut butter on my chocolate.

 

...

 

sorry, but Gromnir wants josh to keep his peanut butter away from his chocolate. am recalling how josh lauded recent hitman game... seemed offended that Gromnir dismissed as a shooter. no doubt there is folks that really would like more shooter or action elements in the crpgs... but not Gromnir. is one of the aspects o' increasing hybridization we dislike. is nothing wrong with adding shooter elements to crpgs, but is simply not the kinda thing that interests Gromnir.

 

better combat for Gromnir means that is more o' a tactical challenge... more demanding o' our noggin than o' our ability to manipulate gamepad.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Hurlshort]

I didn't really do much shooting in Hitman. I'm not sure what you would classify that as.

[Gromnir]

I didn't really do much shooting in Hitman. I'm not sure what you would classify that as.

 

dunno, as Gromnir don't play such games. am aware that you can kill with other implements, but typically if a game tracks your hit %...

 

*shrug*

 

we got lots o' hits when we type in "hitman" & "shooter" into google.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 28, 2008 by Gromnir

[Musopticon?]

I remember shooting perhaps three times in Hitman 2. But yeah, it's not the combat that made Hitman interesting, but the crowd stealth, disguises, mental games with the guards, etc. In a nutshell, the sheer scope of options when in a mission. Most, if not all, missions could be finished with only killing the mark. If you were really good.

 

I hope AP borrows heavily there.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Firefights are the least entertaining aspect of Hitman: Blood Money. This is a pretty good example of how a lot of people play the game:

 

 

You can also wade in with assault rifles and shotguns if you want, but that's not really what the game's designed around (and I don't think it's particularly fun).

[Moatilliatta]

I didn't even know that there were disguises in the locker rooms.

 

Goes to show just how sandbox that game is.

[Gromnir]

we played demo and game were pretty damn dependent on dexterous gamepad/keyboard manipulation. call shooter or not, but game gets classified as shooter in many places, and it it depends on reflexes o' player as much/more than tactics.

 

never were a fan o' arcade games in which our reflexes were being tested 'gainst a machine. is simply not our idea o' fun. only way we is gonna endure such stuff is if it is Gromnir v. Bob... and Bob is in room so we can talk smack and throw pretzels.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Pop]

They say a foolish insistence is the hobgoblin of small minds, Grommy. But I know you're being purposefully thick. It's okay.

 

I wasn't even aware you could go that way in the Opera level. I always knocked out the construction worker in the lobby bathroom, got the prop gun, put it in the worker's toolbox, snaked my way through the basement to backstage, hid in a cabinet and switched out the guns when the time was right. Then ran up to place the explosives and killed the second target that way.

 

Pretty awesome that they let you use the music as a cover. Total Hitch**** reference. Really a great game. Still, I could never figure out how to get through the boat level without running and gunning through the second half.

Edited August 28, 2008 by Pop

[Gromnir]

They say a foolish insistence is the hobgoblin of small minds, Grommy. But I know you're being purposefully thick. It's okay.

 

 

actually, "they" says that foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

 

in any event, a shooter + is still a shooter. even if it allow for lots of neato options it is basically, at its core, a game 'bout timely button punching and targeting.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

"only thing JE had over e.g KotOR's combat was the inclusion of dodging. It's still the least involved of all combat systems in Aurora-based rpgs."

 

JE combat > KOTOR combat. No contest. I found JE's combat fun, challenging (not hard), cool, and all around sueprior to KOTOR 9that's not ahrd to do, lol). It's also better than most action games. Then bagain, JE was no 'simple' action game. It's an Action RPG.

[Darque]

I thought Bloodlines' combat was awesome, of course, I judge combat systems by if "I" had fun or not... so take that with a grain of salt...

[Volourn]

Doesn't everybody?

[taks]

never were a fan o' arcade games in which our reflexes were being tested 'gainst a machine.

hehe, ultima 8. super mario ultima.

 

taks