Russia in Georgia

[Nightshape]

As a side note, Russia has apparently decided it would like control of the Port of Poti... and has taken it. It's happily building permanent structions for the Russian soldiers that will occupy it under the guise of "peacekeepers"... inside of Georgia's soveriegn borders! No sense letting a little thing like a signed withdrawal agreement stand in the way.

 

Anyone surprised?

 

Never, I expected as much from Russia.

[Alexander90]

Look: Georgia bombing peace Tskhinvali, and a single shot being fired in response:

http://www.vesti.ru/videos?p=11&cid=15&vid=143258

 

Look, say that the civilians of the attack on Georgian South Ossetia:

http://www.vesti.ru/videos?p=11&cid=15&vid=143407

 

See how Georgian military bombed a hospital in Tshinvili:

http://www.vesti.ru/videos?p=11&cid=15&vid=143555

 

 

 

 

Посмотрите как мирный Цхинвали обстреливает Грузия и ни единого выстрела в ответ:

http://www.vesti.ru/videos?p=11&cid=15&vid=143258

 

Посмотрите, что говорят мирные жители о нападении Грузии на Южную Осетию:

http://www.vesti.ru/videos?p=11&cid=15&vid=143407

 

Посмотрите как Грузинские военные бомбили больницу в Цхинвили:

http://www.vesti.ru/videos?p=11&cid=15&vid=143555

[Gfted1]

As a side note, Russia has apparently decided it would like control of the Port of Poti... and has taken it. It's happily building permanent structions for the Russian soldiers that will occupy it under the guise of "peacekeepers"... inside of Georgia's soveriegn borders! No sense letting a little thing like a signed withdrawal agreement stand in the way.

 

Anyone surprised?

 

 

It cracks me up how we steamed a "humanitarian" destroyer into the middle of the port and dropped anchor. Guess we'll see how serious they are.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Look: Georgia bombing peace Tskhinvali, and a single shot being fired in response:

http://www.vesti.ru/videos?p=11&cid=15&vid=143258

 

Look, say that the civilians of the attack on Georgian South Ossetia:

http://www.vesti.ru/videos?p=11&cid=15&vid=143407

 

See how Georgian military bombed a hospital in Tshinvili:

http://www.vesti.ru/videos?p=11&cid=15&vid=143555

 

 

 

 

Посмотрите как мирный Цхинвали обстреливает Грузия и ни единого выстрела в ответ:

http://www.vesti.ru/videos?p=11&cid=15&vid=143258

 

Посмотрите, что говорят мирные жители о нападении Грузии на Южную Осетию:

http://www.vesti.ru/videos?p=11&cid=15&vid=143407

 

Посмотрите как Грузинские военные бомбили больницу в Цхинвили:

http://www.vesti.ru/videos?p=11&cid=15&vid=143555

 

Propaganda bot?!

[Gorth]

Propaganda bot?!

I couldn't tell you. I checked out the website earlier and didn't understand a word

 

Looked like some kind of Russian version of Fox News.

[Xard]

Basically all of Russian mainstream media are local Fox Channels...

[Brdavs]

Nope. Like I said, this has nothing to do with being saviours but flexing their military might... too bad, that if they keep it up, they're only spiting themselves. Does Russia really want the Cold War round 2? Don't they know what happened back then? Did they forget? Do they need another reminder? Their threats of a 'strategical premeptive nuclear strike' on Poland sure sound slike they want another Cold war. I guess they want their power to be even further eroded. *shrug*

 

Oh the fanboyism, it hurts m3h eyes lol.

 

In other news presidents Eduard Kokoity of South Ossetia and Sergei Bagapsh of Abkhazia adressed the Duma as it unanimously called Medvedev to recognise their independance, as did the Federation Council.

 

Promptly following were calls from US and Europe for Medvedev to ignore the votes in his decision. Funny that considering the biggest "sin" of Russia in our eyes is the too authorative rule of their presidents, even when the us system is little better on paper. Frown uppon it when it suits you and change tune to ask for it when it doesnt. Who are elected representatives anyways, all FSB bought &/or intimidated into it. lol.

 

Anyone surprised?

[Fionavar]

Propaganda bot?!

I couldn't tell you. I checked out the website earlier and didn't understand a word

 

Looked like some kind of Russian version of Fox News.

 

Can anyone confirm is these are a legitimate links to a site?

[Brdavs]

Um, click on them heh?

 

Yea they are... vesti=news. 3 links to 3 video clips with footage we mostly allready saw on CNN and the likes, these just have some interviews added. Eglish description on top, russian on bottom.

Bot or no, it links to a "relevant" place shall we say... legit.

Edited August 25, 2008 by Brdavs

[Xard]

Forget anything bad I've said about Russia in past, they're awesome

[Brdavs]

The deed is done, Russia recognises the independant S Ossetia and Abkhazia. London the first in the line to "blast" a "direct violation of numerous U.N. Security Council resolutions regarding Georgia's territorial integrity". Will of the people, 2 decades of struggle & a western ushered precedens be dammned.

 

Anyone surprised?

 

lol

[Meshugger]

REALPOLITIK

Edited August 26, 2008 by Meshugger

[SteveThaiBinh]

Would anyone like to hazard a guess how long S. Ossetia and Abkhazia remain independent before being welcomed back into the loving embrace of Mother Russia. Maybe the Americans should give the Georgians US passports and declare Georgia the 51st. state? Oh no, that would be unreasonable and provocative, but apparently what the Russians have done isn't.

[Gorth]

Would anyone like to hazard a guess how long S. Ossetia and Abkhazia remain independent before being welcomed back into the loving embrace of Mother Russia. Maybe the American should give the Georgians US passports and declare Georgia the 51st. state? Oh no, that would be unreasonable and provocative, but apparently what the Russians have done isn't.

They would have to change their name though. Considering that there is a Virginia and West Virginia, they could call them Georgia and South Georgia

 

And the world still has to compete in an open contest for the oil reserves of that region

[Calax]

Would anyone like to hazard a guess how long S. Ossetia and Abkhazia remain independent before being welcomed back into the loving embrace of Mother Russia. Maybe the American should give the Georgians US passports and declare Georgia the 51st. state? Oh no, that would be unreasonable and provocative, but apparently what the Russians have done isn't.

eh... we've already got a georgia... they'd be New Georgia.

[Brdavs]

Well as long as we`re not oversimplifying things so that we can more easily vilify...

 

I thought England was the 51st state lol? Anyhow, with the current president Georgia allready is a de facto union state.

 

Our reasoning for an intervention on the balkans was the complicated situation after the collapse of Yugoslavia. Guess what, after the collapse of USSR Caucasus was and is ten times as messed up. Now I understand the politicians and their agendas for the region but how can an average "freedom loving" american joe after 2 decades of ruthless ethnic conflicts take a nations independance from a political entity they never ever wanted to be part of (nor de facto was) as a bad thing...

 

Whats with all the hopping around? Nations right to selfdetermination, lets have a teaparty! Preserve the union! Preserve Yugoslavia! Kosovo right to selfdetermination! Preserve Georgia! I`m lost, what`s our current stance now? Oh, being selfish. Gotcha.

 

I thought we were the "good guys"? Why do we want to hog independance day? What reasonable and well informed argument can anyone give, other than the looming "red threat" that needs opposition and slapping down lol?

Edited August 27, 2008 by Brdavs

[Brdavs]

Semi related to the superiority of approach argument:

 

http

://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?News...ghan&Cr1=?

 

Tis a good thing our troops aint subject to international law eh? lol. Good guys ftw.

Edited August 27, 2008 by Brdavs

[Gfted1]

Asian alliance snubs Russian plea for support

 

Aug 28, 11:31 AM (ET)

 

By OLGA TUTUBALINA and PETER LEONARD

 

DUSHANBE, Tajikistan (AP) - China and several Central Asian nations rebuffed Russia's hopes of international support for its actions in Georgia, issuing a statement Thursday denouncing the use of force and calling for respect for every country's territorial integrity.

 

A joint declaration from the Shanghai Cooperation Organization also offered some support for Russia's "active role in promoting peace" following a cease-fire, but overall it appeared to increase Moscow's international isolation.

 

France, meanwhile, said the European Union was considering imposing sanctions against Russia.

 

"Sanctions are being considered ... and many other means as well," French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner said at a news conference in Paris. He did not elaborate.

 

The West has already criticized Russia for what it calls a disproportionate use of force in fighting this month with Georgia, its small southern neighbor that wants to join NATO.

 

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev had appealed to the Asian alliance - whose members include Russia, China, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan - for unanimous support of Moscow's response to Georgia's "aggression."

 

But none of the other alliance members joined Russia in recognizing the independence claims of Georgia's separatist regions, Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

 

Medvedev's search for support in Asia had raised fears that the alliance would turn the furor over Georgia into a broader confrontation between East and West, pitting the U.S. and Europe against their two main Cold War foes.

 

But China has traditionally been wary of endorsing separatists abroad, mindful of its own problems with Tibet and Muslims in the western territory of Xinjiang. The unanimously endorsed joint statement made a point of stressing the sanctity of borders - two days after Russia sought to redraw Georgia's territory.

 

"The participants ... underscore the need for respect of the historical and cultural traditions of each country and each people, and for efforts aimed at preserving the unity of the state and its territorial integrity," the declaration said.

 

"Relying exclusively on the use of force has no prospects and hinders a comprehensive settlement of local conflicts," the declaration added, in what could also be seen as criticism of Georgia, which tried to retake South Ossetia by force.

 

The alliance statement also expressed "deep concern" over the conflict and urged "the appropriate sides to resolve the existing problems through peaceful dialogue and apply efforts to reconciliation and promotion of negotiations."

 

At the same time, the carefully crafted statement offered some praise of Moscow's actions, at least in the context of the peace deal signed five days after the war began, on the night of Aug. 7.

 

"The SCO member states welcome the adoption in Moscow on Aug. 12, 2008, of the six principles of resolving the conflict in South Ossetia and support the active role of Russia in promoting peace and cooperation in the given region," the statement said.

 

The four Central Asian members of the group - Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan - all seemed reluctant to damage their relations with Europe and the U.S.

 

Kazakhstan enjoys significant Western investment in its rich hydrocarbon sector, and impoverished Kyrgyzstan earns $150 million in aid and rent for hosting a U.S. air base that supports military operations in Afghanistan.

 

But overall, the summit highlighted Russia's isolation.

 

Despite continuing Western protests and a visit by U.S. warships to Georgia's Black Sea coast, Russian troops remain at checkpoints inside areas controlled by Georgia prior to the recent conflict.

 

While a cease-fire agreement calls for both sides to withdraw to their previous positions, the Kremlin says the agreement allows Russian forces to occupy "security zones" outside the rebel regions.

 

In a rare gesture of conciliation Thursday, Russian forces turned over 12 Georgian soldiers on the border of Abkhazia. The Georgians were seized Aug. 18 and paraded - blindfolded and hands tied behind their backs- on top of Russian armored vehicles.

 

The soldiers appeared unharmed Thursday, and some were smiling.

 

But there was also fresh conflict in the region. South Ossetia claimed to have shot down an unmanned Georgian spy plane that was scouting the skies over the republic. Georgia denied the report.

 

Russia responded to Georgia's military offensive on South Ossetia by sending hundreds of tanks rolling into the rebel region, pushing Georgian troops out of South Ossetia's capital, Tskhinvali, before driving deep into Georgia proper.

 

On Tuesday, Russia recognized both South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent, a move that set off another storm of criticism from the West. The two regions make up roughly 20 percent of Georgia's territory.

 

The West accuses Russia of excessive force in response to the Georgian offensive, of failing to meet its troop withdrawal commitments under an EU-brokered cease-fire and of violating international law in recognizing the two separatist regions.

 

In Dushanbe, Medvedev blamed Georgia for the conflict. The alliance, he said, would send a "serious signal for those are trying to justify the aggression" by endorsing Russia's actions.

 

But Russia has so far found little unequivocal support, even among stalwart foes of the U.S.

 

Alexei Malashenko, an analyst at the Carnegie Moscow Center, said he was surprised that even Cuba and Venezuela had not yet followed Russia's lead in recognizing the separatist Georgian regions.

 

"The Soviet Union was not so alone even in 1968," he said on Ekho Moskvy radio, referring to the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia that crushed a liberal reform movement in the Warsaw Pact nation.

 

In Vienna, a senior Georgian official said Russian forces and their armed allies have driven all Georgians out of South Ossetia and Abkhazia and were now ethnically cleansing villages in other areas of Georgia.

 

"As of now, we can say with confidence that in both regions - Abkhazia and Ossetia - ethnic cleansing is fully completed," EkaTkeshelashvili told reporters at the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe.

 

"They've expelled from all villages remnants of the Georgian population - they've destroyed their houses, they've looted their property, they've burned down their fields, forests," she said.

 

The Russian ambassador to the Vienna-based organization, Anvar Azimov, denied the charge.

 

The joint statement in Dushanbe offered thinly veiled criticism of the West - but some leaders at the summit went further.

 

Iranian leader Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, whose country has observer status with the alliance, accused "Western powers" of interfering in Central Asia and hindering its independent development.

 

"Their unilateral actions are continuing," Ahmadinejad said.

 

He has worked hard to gain membership for his country in the alliance, but so far those efforts have failed. Medvedev said the door was open to enlargement but did not mention Iran, according to the RIA-Novosti news agency.

 

In addition to Iran, several other countries attended as observers, including India, Pakistan, Mongolia and Afghanistan, whose delegation was headed by President Hamid Karzai.

 

The Shanghai Cooperation Organization was created in 2001 to improve regional coordination on terrorism and border security.

[Aponez]

The deed is done, Russia recognises the independant S Ossetia and Abkhazia. London the first in the line to "blast" a "direct violation of numerous U.N. Security Council resolutions regarding Georgia's territorial integrity". Will of the people, 2 decades of struggle & a western ushered precedens be dammned.

 

Anyone surprised?

 

lol

 

The english always were very funny

[Volourn]

HAHA! Even Russia's Asian Allies snumb their war crimes of murdering innocent Georgians, and conquering another country and keeping their soldiers there.

 

 

"The english always were very funny

[Gorth]

Not eveyrthing is black and white. The two situations *are* different no matter bhwo much tries to make them exactly the same.

I am curious, different how?

 

You have a union (USSR/Yugoslavia) that disintegrates. You have an ethnic group that ends up on the "wrong" side of a border and don't want to be that particular nationality. The country (Serbia/Georgia) that holds "ownership" of the territory uses violence against said ethnic group trying to force them into submission. Outside forces intervenes, acknowledging their right to self determination. There may be differences, but there sure are a lot of similarities too (including the hypocrisy involved from whatever major geopolitical power had a stake on the losing horse).

[Volourn]

"There may be differences"

 

So, you agree with me? They aren't the same situation. That's all I needed. So, the question remains if the two situations are different why are some - espicially the people who likely dissaproved of the West's handling Kosovo - expect the two situiations to be handled in the exact same way even if they do have similarities. They have differences hence they should be treated differently.

[Gorth]

"There may be differences"

 

So, you agree with me?

I agree insofar that it is *possible* that there are differences. Not necessarily that I am able to see them

[Volourn]

I'm not going into that as this is about the Russia/Georgia situation while the Kosovo situation is old news (well, like most things political, it's not 100% settled); but the point is every situation is different. Trying to lump such dynamic things into the same thing does a huge disservice to the people, groups, and countries involved. Georgia, and Kosovo are two different situations with their own history, background, people, etc. That alone is enough to not group them togetehr even if they makes it easier to make snap judgements.

 

ie. Iraq = Vietnam.

 

I shoudl also say that I don't think Georgia is innocent but people keep claiming they aattacked Russia and they did no such thing. And, the accusations if ethnic cleansing is ridiculous considering the flat out lies Russia has told - supposed 5k dead when it ended up being 100s (not saying 100s dead is a good thing); but that's not ethnic cleansing. Not by a long shot.

[Gorth]

Well, the "thousands of casualties and tens of thousands of refugees" are from a paper from the US Library of Congress, not my invention (I think I posted the link previously in this thread, or was that at WW? Thats possible). Blame them if they are fiddling with the numbers. Mind you, this was in 1991 when the Georgians wanted to wipe out any sense of "Ossetian" cultural integrity.

 

Yeltsin was the one that mediated the ceasefire back then.

 

The recent casualties may be much less, but the Ossetian desire to become "Georgians" hasn't really improved since those early years.