NWN2 XP2 Storm of Zehir Wishlist

[Whipporwill]

Fine, then.

 

 

The engine wasn't designed for squad-based tactical combat and handles it badly. It was designed as a single-character action game with an emphasis on giving simple commands in real-time, and the farther it gets pushed from that concept, the more clumsy and frustrating it's going to become. This is not a defense of the infinity engine or of any other engine that you may have lodged in your ass.

 

Multiple characters cause problems with camera positioning and with setting the order in which characters will execute their commands. Plus, switching characters causes all the other characters to act like someone hit control-alt-delete on their brains.

 

Tactical combat does not work well because you have only limited control of even your one directly controlled character. You can say, for example, "cast this spell on this monster" but you cannot say "watch this monster, and when it reaches this point, cast this spell on it." You can only guess at when the spell will reach the monster and where the monster will be when it happens. Quite likely, the monster will be right in front of you, chewing on your face, in which case you have likely just nuked your entire party. Alternatively, the monster may be too far from you, in which case you will go haring after it, flailing your arms, running right through the front ranks of the enemy while they all laugh and swing their weapons at you.

 

Trying to do squad-based tactical combat in NWN2 multiplies these problems together, with the result that even a moderately-sized battle involves constant pausing, switching characters, and reissuing commands, not because the battle is inherently difficult, but because otherwise your characters will do stupid things and then die.

[~Di]

Who mocked you? I merely politely pointed out a difference.

 

Furthermore, hardly anybody here agrees with each other. About anything.

 

Chill out. You know you want to.

 

True. I wasn't in the best mood to begin with. Sorry about that.

 

I like to discuss games and their features; that isn't a license for others to discuss me personally, in this thread and others around this forum. It's become a bit too common with several posters in here, frankly, and it's getting on my last nerve.

 

I thought your presumptuous comment, "So, what you're really saying is that you prefer unlimited power so combat doesn't interrupt the next soppy romance / plot / cookie cutter NPC chatter cutscene?" to be extremely condescending... and perhaps a touch sexist. Gromnir's rude ridicule of me personally was pretty much the last straw.

 

I try to treat posters with respect and courtesy. I may not always succeed, but I usually try... unless they make it personal and tick me off. I should have had a much shorter tantrum though. I think everything after "Screw you all" was probably unnecessary.

[~Di]

...And, Di, I never insulted you nor did I attack you in that post.

...

 

You are quite correct, you didn't. I must have put your name in there for all the other times you did and I let it go. This time, however, you were innocent. I apologize.

[Moatilliatta]

@~Di

I actually agree with you that the system is pretty broken Vis-

[~Di]

am thinking that Di were a bit too sensitive 'bout this. weren't really trying to be mean, but you has been pretty upfront in past 'bout how you will hike back to town to get every farthing and shilling from sale o' dropped items o' 1007... and you re-rolled quite a bit in the ie games. you hated that the developers "fixed" ranged weapons after bg1 and these is just a handful o' examples.

 

Again, as you have done so many times over the years when I express gaming preferences with which you disagree, you drag out discussions from 9-10 years ago, talk about me as if I'm the deaf little pet sitting in the corner of the room, and proceed to explain to the forum why everything I think and say should effectively be dismissed. This time I wasn't in the mood to smile and take it.

 

I've never been discourteous to you, Gromnir. Just the opposite. I am not "too sensitive". I'm pissed off by your rudeness and deliberate effort to dismiss me and my opinions as unimportant. I don't deserve this, not from you.

Edited July 27, 2008 by ~Di

[~Di]

@~Di

I actually agree with you that the system is pretty broken Vis-

Edited July 27, 2008 by ~Di

[Gorgon]

Part of the fun is having to chose when to let loose and when to use mele or run. Of course it's not much fun at all at lv 1. when you are done for the day after 4 spells, but having them just sit down for 2 seconds and voila all spells are memorized, that seemed just as silly as when your party members sortof dozed off instead of dying and woke up no worse for the wear after the fight. It sabotages the challenge.

[Gromnir]

am thinking that Di were a bit too sensitive 'bout this. weren't really trying to be mean, but you has been pretty upfront in past 'bout how you will hike back to town to get every farthing and shilling from sale o' dropped items o' 1007... and you re-rolled quite a bit in the ie games. you hated that the developers "fixed" ranged weapons after bg1 and these is just a handful o' examples.

 

Again, as you have done so many times over the years when I express gaming preferences with which you disagree, you drag out discussions from 9-10 years ago, talk about me as if I'm the deaf little pet sitting in the corner of the room, and proceed to explain to the forum why everything I think and say should effectively be dismissed. This time I wasn't in the mood to smile and take it.

 

I've never been discourteous to you, Gromnir. Just the opposite. I am not "too sensitive". I'm pissed off by your rudeness and deliberate effort to dismiss me and my opinions as unimportant. I don't deserve this, not from you.

 

 

okie dokie. clearly you saw something in our post that we didn't put into it. lord knows we didn't tell anybody to ignore you. specifically we said that there were nothing wrong with your type o' gameplay... is no less valid than is mc's or Gromnir's. simply recognized that Balance & Challenge arguments are not going to budge you... and yeah, 10 years of posting on same subject has made that obvious to Gromnir and anybody else that were paying attention.

 

didn't fabricate untruths and specifically said that your approach were valid, but you see as dismissive. fine. screw it. normally Gromnir would apologize and move on, but if you wanna handle this way, so be it.

[spacekungfuman]

Part of the fun is having to chose when to let loose and when to use melee or run. Of course it's not much fun at all at lv 1. when you are done for the day after 4 spells, but having them just sit down for 2 seconds and voila all spells are memorized, that seemed just as silly as when your party members sortof dozed off instead of dying and woke up no worse for the wear after the fight. It sabotages the challenge.

 

Agreed. Making decisions about rationing magic is part of the strategy. I think the best solution is to orient the game around resting before and after dungeons, and balancing the dungeons around a single rests worth of magic. Since we're playing a party based game, that may well mean only using low level spells for trash fights. What's wrong with that?

 

Di - How can you even claim a semblance of balance in the game with friendly fire off? A lot of people on the official forums are really latching onto my suggestion to nerf resistances/reflex saves, because they make the game too easy, and yet you want to play without them? No class is supposed to be the best solution to every problem, and under the current implementation of combat, that's exactly where we are. There should be enemies fighters can't beat but mages can and vice versa.

[~Di]

Di - How can you even claim a semblance of balance in the game with friendly fire off? A lot of people on the official forums are really latching onto my suggestion to nerf resistances/reflex saves, because they make the game too easy, and yet you want to play without them? No class is supposed to be the best solution to every problem, and under the current implementation of combat, that's exactly where we are. There should be enemies fighters can't beat but mages can and vice versa.

 

Because I dispise friendly fire with every fiber of my being. If a mage is so stunningly incompetent as to kill off half her own party along with the enemy, how can she possibly be bright enough to be a damned wizard? If one has to turn AI to puppet mode and babysit every move a mage makes, ignoring your own PC, then what in hell is the use of having AI or a PC in the first place? All you're going to be doing is babysitting the mage so she doesn't kill everyone.

 

And I suspect I'm hardly the only one who feels that way, since Obsidian found it necessary to patch out friendly fire in NWN2 to drench a torrent of player fury over it. The friendly fire threads on the official NWN2 forums at BioWare are running pretty heavily in favor of those who feel as I do, that friendly fire negates the use of companion AI and requires micro-managing mages to a level that dimishes fun significantly.

 

If you think turning off friendly fire makes a mage "the best solution for every problem", then clearly we haven't been playing the same games.

Edited July 27, 2008 by ~Di

[Tigranes]

Wasn't that really the issue with crap AI that acted as if friendly fire was off, not the fact that friendly fire was there in the first place?

[~Di]

Wasn't that really the issue with crap AI that acted as if friendly fire was off, not the fact that friendly fire was there in the first place?

 

According to posters at the BioWare NWN2 forum, it was because people were squealing bloody murder when Qara kept blowing up their parties. Now I couldn't say, because the first time Qara killed half my party I promptly deleted the game, started a new one at a difficulty level that did not include friendly fire. I was told that FF was patched out of all difficulty levels at a later time. I cannot substantiate that because every time I've played NWN2, I've stayed at the level below where FF was originally implemented.

 

Anyone who doesn't agree that friendly fire is a game-breaker never met Qara. That is all.

[Volourn]

"Anyone who doesn't agree that friendly fire is a game-breaker never met Qara. That is all."

'

Wrong.

[Monte Carlo]

I still don't get the friendly fire issue.

 

You use the right spell for the right situation - i.e. if you are in a tight dungeon corridor you might use buffs on your fighters, area denial spells on doorways then use finesse-based attacks like acid arrows etc. Not expect to be able to fireball everything with impunity. For me, the no friendly-fire thing turns the game into more of a Dungeon Siege type screen-saver, not a D&D game.

 

For example, I was playing the boss-fight at the orc caves in NWN2 OC. The phone went. I thought I paused (except that that I hadn't) and answered it. I came back and of course my party had massacred everything without my intervention whatsoever. That's not a game. That's a screen-saver.

[~Di]

I still don't get the friendly fire issue.

 

You use the right spell for the right situation - i.e. if you are in a tight dungeon corridor you might use buffs on your fighters, area denial spells on doorways then use finesse-based attacks like acid arrows etc. Not expect to be able to fireball everything with impunity. For me, the no friendly-fire thing turns the game into more of a Dungeon Siege type screen-saver, not a D&D game.

 

For example, I was playing the boss-fight at the orc caves in NWN2 OC. The phone went. I thought I paused (except that that I hadn't) and answered it. I came back and of course my party had massacred everything without my intervention whatsoever. That's not a game. That's a screen-saver.

 

Then use a higher difficulty. Friendly fire requires you to put your mage (if not your entire party) on puppet mode and babysit their every move. Micromanaging is not a pleasure for me, quite frankly. And I'm hardly alone.

 

When party AI first came out, I hated it. I was trained to do BG2 pause-and-micromanage gameplay... and I was damned good at it. But as AI has improved, I've discovered that in games like NWN2 I actually feel as if my PC is an individual within a party of competent comrades instead of my PC being simply one pixelated body of many that I, the player, must pull the strings on, one by one by one. I actually like that immersion, and don't want to lose it.

 

From what I've seen on the Bio NWN2 forums, there is a split in opinion on this with those who hate friendly fire being slightly in the majority. People expect and enjoy different things from games; that should be okay. A FF toggle or FF implemented via difficulty should serve everyone's wish. What I don't understand is the mindset that there is only one right way, and even addressing those that disagree through the design of the game is somehow heresy.

Edited July 27, 2008 by ~Di

[Lare Kikkeli]

Wait, so they patched friendly fire off? This sucks, why make the game easier than it already is? I've yet to die a single time in NWN2 OC.

[Tigranes]

I was told that FF was patched out of all difficulty levels at a later time.

 

I can't substantiate it either since it's been a long while since I played, and I myself definitely remember FF being on (and liking it). Honestly? I think if true, it's a very bad move - and you probably agree that hte toggle was the best idea. FF does irritate me sometimes and I can see why some people do want it off. That's cool.

 

But we already know this. We're all happy if the solution is just a toggle. We're not when the decision is more universal and implicit (like the general AI or immunity/resistance schema). In such cases, I'm afraid I would have to argue on the side of tactical challenge for the most part. Now yes, I do like tactical challenge. A lot. I love this element. But if you can forget about that for a mo, I think my point can stand separate of that.

 

Basically, as we have already discussed, the kind of CRPGs Obz/BIS/Bio/etc make have always had an element of tactical challenge (or at least, tactical gameplay) as an important part of what makes those games. Even if you and others by and large ignored this (which is fine). I don't think theres any reason for them to suddenly abandon this part of their games, as long as a sizable constituency exists which appreciates that element - and I think many people do. Perhaps not to the extent that MC does. Perhaps they play on easier difficulties, cheat, don't do as well, whatever. But I think a lot of people buy these games and appreciate the kind of tactical gameplay on offer.... and thats what these people want to make and have always made. So when push comes to shove, I'm neither surprised nor irritated to see them make decisions on the side of tactical gameplay and challenge.

 

If me & you disagree, I rather suspect it's the question of degrees - i.e. you (I think?) suggest that elements such as FF and SE-Resting Combo are welcomed by none but the most hardcore of D&D fans, while I would suggest that they are part of the bread-and-butter of Obsidian and this is expected by many buyers. And we can't forget the additional complication of bad AI and control schemes that are the result of tacking on a full Party to an engine that didn't do it before - if the AI-controlled mages were a lot more sensible I'm sure you'd have been a lot happier?

[~Di]

I was told that FF was patched out of all difficulty levels at a later time.

 

I can't substantiate it either since it's been a long while since I played, and I myself definitely remember FF being on (and liking it). Honestly? I think if true, it's a very bad move - and you probably agree that hte toggle was the best idea. FF does irritate me sometimes and I can see why some people do want it off. That's cool.

 

I can't substantiate it either; Sylvius the Mad made this statement in the BioWare forums, and it went unchallenged so I presumed it to be true (he's a fierce proponent of FF and was furious when it was patched out... plus he's a dear friend!... so I took his word at face value.)

 

But we already know this. We're all happy if the solution is just a toggle. We're not when the decision is more universal and implicit (like the general AI or immunity/resistance schema). In such cases, I'm afraid I would have to argue on the side of tactical challenge for the most part. Now yes, I do like tactical challenge. A lot. I love this element. But if you can forget about that for a mo, I think my point can stand separate of that.

 

Yep, a toggle would be great, but NWN2 didn't have a toggle. FF was difficulty oriented; I can't recall if it kicked in on Normal or Hardcore difficulty, though.

 

As far as tactics go, I enjoy tactical gameplay too. Hell, Jagged Alliance 2 (and all of it's insanely difficult mods) wouldn't be my all-time favorite game if I didn't. However, when I'm playing a party-based RPG where magic is a primary factor, I don't enjoy dumping my carefully-created PC to fend for herself while I babysit every move the magic-throwers make. If AI is still insufficient to account for the location of party members when flinging fireballs, then by all that is holy give me the option of turning FF off! That's all I'm asking.

 

 

Basically, as we have already discussed, the kind of CRPGs Obz/BIS/Bio/etc make have always had an element of tactical challenge (or at least, tactical gameplay) as an important part of what makes those games. Even if you and others by and large ignored this (which is fine). I don't think theres any reason for them to suddenly abandon this part of their games, as long as a sizable constituency exists which appreciates that element - and I think many people do. Perhaps not to the extent that MC does. Perhaps they play on easier difficulties, cheat, don't do as well, whatever. But I think a lot of people buy these games and appreciate the kind of tactical gameplay on offer.... and thats what these people want to make and have always made. So when push comes to shove, I'm neither surprised nor irritated to see them make decisions on the side of tactical gameplay and challenge.

 

I'm not asking them to discard tactics. I'm just asking them to either write AI that allows magic to be used without micro-managing one party member at the expense of the PC (thereby destroying immersion factor for some of us) by either fixing magic AI or giving me the option of keeping my mages from killing the rest of us! Thing is, story and immersion in the fantasy world is important to me too. If I want to micro-manage tactics, I'll go back to Jagged Alliance 2... on the highest difficulty level! Now THERE are some tactics!

 

If me & you disagree, I rather suspect it's the question of degrees - i.e. you (I think?) suggest that elements such as FF and SE-Resting Combo are welcomed by none but the most hardcore of D&D fans, while I would suggest that they are part of the bread-and-butter of Obsidian and this is expected by many buyers. And we can't forget the additional complication of bad AI and control schemes that are the result of tacking on a full Party to an engine that didn't do it before - if the AI-controlled mages were a lot more sensible I'm sure you'd have been a lot happier?

 

Yes, we probably disagree on these degrees. And yes, if AI-controlled mages were bright enough not to kill us all with the first few spells flung, I would indeed be a lot happier.

Edited July 27, 2008 by ~Di

[Tigranes]

I can't substantiate it either; Sylvius the Mad made this statement in the BioWare forums, and it went unchallenged so I presumed it to be true (he's a fierce proponent of FF and was furious when it was patched out... plus he's a dear friend!... so I took his word at face value.)

 

Heh. Sounds pretty true then. Shows how much of a 'hardcore player' I am though, what with all the lag on my old computer I probably wouldn't notice.

 

Anyway, it seems like the AI is a bigger stumbling block than I might have made it sound: and in that case I fully agree with you. I give kudos to Obsidian for making the Aurora/Electron engine do as much as it has to make party gameplay enjoyable, but there is indeed still a long way to go. Now I didn't mind *too* much since I puppet-moded everything from Day One, but when I did try the AI well, uh. Yeah.

 

Definitely hope that we see some AI improvements in SoZ, and I think we will.

[Kissamies]

Huh? FF off on all levels? That doesn't sound right. I have been able to hit my own party members with sleep spells quite recently. It could be some hak I'm using, but I doubt it since the only thing I have that might do that is Tony_K's AI. Doesn't sound likely.

 

Got to agree with Di somewhat with this FF, fireballs and tactics issue. I really wanted to play with FF on, but couldn't before I got a decent AI mod. The AI companions just dropped fireballs in middle of the party and this engine is not good for constantly micromanaging everyone. For me, things happen too fast for that. I don't care if it's still the 6 second round like in IE or not... things happen too fast to micromanage a big party. Maybe it's the usual range of engagement or movement speeds, I don't know. It's more geared for focusing on single guy too, as it has been said.

 

Got to have good AI and luckily there is if you go looking for it. Good AI included in the official game would be very good.

[spacekungfuman]

I'm not asking them to discard tactics. I'm just asking them to either write AI that allows magic to be used without micro-managing one party member at the expense of the PC (thereby destroying immersion factor for some of us) by either fixing magic AI or giving me the option of keeping my mages from killing the rest of us! Thing is, story and immersion in the fantasy world is important to me too. If I want to micro-manage tactics, I'll go back to Jagged Alliance 2... on the highest difficulty level! Now THERE are some tactics!

 

If you want to only control one character in a party based rtw/p system, then you are asking them to abandon tactics. Either the fights are hard enough to require micomanagement of the party of they're so easy you can sleep through them with the party on AI. It's just like the problem of trying to balance fights for play over the shoulder and iso. If the fight can be won in over the shoulder, it will be too easy with real tactical control in iso. The only solution as I see it is to balance the game on hardcore to be a challenge if you micro manage and use the iso camera, then let you scale difficulty down if you want to sleep walk.

 

And regarding FF, when I don't want Ian to kill dogmeat in fallout, I don't give him burst weapons. . .

[Gromnir]

Huh? FF off on all levels? That doesn't sound right. I have been able to hit my own party members with sleep spells quite recently. It could be some hak I'm using, but I doubt it since the only thing I have that might do that is Tony_K's AI. Doesn't sound likely.

 

Got to agree with Di somewhat with this FF, fireballs and tactics issue. I really wanted to play with FF on, but couldn't before I got a decent AI mod. The AI companions just dropped fireballs in middle of the party and this engine is not good for constantly micromanaging everyone. For me, things happen too fast for that. I don't care if it's still the 6 second round like in IE or not... things happen too fast to micromanage a big party. Maybe it's the usual range of engagement or movement speeds, I don't know. It's more geared for focusing on single guy too, as it has been said.

 

Got to have good AI and luckily there is if you go looking for it. Good AI included in the official game would be very good.

 

 

friendly fire is a pain in the arse... and there is no question that general party ai is stoopid. no matter what mod we has seen utilized, party is still stoopid. everybody plays different, so your "stoopid" is gonna be different than Gromnir's "stoopid." might be possible to makes a script that works well for kiss, but is unlikely it would be working well for Gromnir.

 

most o' the friendly fire issues... weren't. am recalling that could turn off jnpc use of area effect spells. problem solved for most part... though we did run into this recurring problem in nwn2 and motb that had jnpcs turn hostile on each other if caught in an area of spell effect... even if spell were beneficial. *chuckle* paladin from nwn2 and cleric from motb were the most likely to go berserk... so maybe it were a 'haha' by developers commenting on religious types... or not.

 

Gromnir prefers full micro-manage. that ain't gonna happen in soz, so am hopeful that we have some small menu o' easily accessed, basic, and useful commands that allows us to override ai... commands that actually work and genuine is useful in combat situations.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Kissamies]

Well yes, clearly no mod is likely to turn them so absolutely brilliant that they can function with no management whatsoever, but stopping them from nuking their own party any chance they get is a huge step into right direction for me. Also, nobody better imply that I'd prefer the game play itself while I just watch. I like tactics, but I don't like having to neurotically pause every 1 or 2 seconds just to check that nobody is doing anything stupid or just standing there. If that level of control is required, it'd be better off turnbased. I like turns.

[newc0253]

yeah, i miss turns.

 

utterly artificial but great for tactics. TOEE may have been a thoroughly flawed CRPG in many respects, but i loved me the turn-based combat.

 

the only time i use party-AI in a CRPG these days is for minor encounters. otherwise you risk your spellcasters using all their most powerful spells on some mid-level chode. that plus friendly fire will wipe out half your party.

 

micromanaging may be a chore but it beats watching AI wreck your party.

[Gromnir]

toee were a ridiculously busted game that almost laughably gets categorized as a rpg. nevertheless, with some minor quibbles regarding inexplicable rules implementation, Gromnir thoroughly enjoyed toee turn-based combat. is too bad that troika screwed everything else during and after development o' toee or we might have seen more such games with similar combat. the game industry is disappointingly (but understandably) unimaginative, and if toee had been a success we woulda' seen clones of it.

 

nwn and the fallouts were prime examples o' how terrible bad party ai can be. if it gets to a point whereby you is more likely to be successful in combat soloing as 'posed to using party mates, then something is clearly wrong.

 

...

 

am understanding that some persons do not like to micromanage, and sadly, 'cause o' seeming limitations o' engine, ai cannot be simply turned off for those who prefer micromanage. finding some happy medium is difficult, and quite possibly doomed.

 

3 general categories o' ai consternation for Gromnir seems to keeps showing up in games such as nwn2.

 

1) area effect spells

 

as has been mentioned earlier, area effect spells seems to be a problem for ai. soz will start at low levels, so Gromnir will be able to simply avoid having our customized pcs choose stuff like web or fireball. there is enough alternatives to such spells that we not feel too bad 'bout skipping. even so, it is disappointing that such useful spells is often the bane of our own party. hopeful the non-customizable jnpcs will be available at low enough levels so that we can effective control their spell lists as well.

 

regardless, it is somewhat disappointing that

 

how 'bout an auto-pause function? if a party spellcaster is about to cast an area effect spell, have possible possible to set game to auto-pause so player can somehow disrupt or alter target area. if player uninterested in micromanage not wanna be bothered, then they simply not have to check that particular auto-pause function. ideally we would rather be able to tailor the list o' area effect spells that would initiate a pause, but broad and general is probably easier to implement.

 

2) idiotic use o' spells

 

am recalling nwn2 and grobnar's repeated attempts to use charm and mind affecting spells on undead. huh? have some jnpc cast a fire related offensive spell at a fire elemental or repeatedly tries to put undead to sleep never fails to drive us nutty... or nuttier. dunno, but this kinda problem seems to be simply a matter o' lack o' developer diligence. would take considerable 'mount o' time on the part of developers to script reasonable spell use... time the developers feel is better spent on other features.

 

we got no elegant solution to this particular gordian knot.

 

3) "what is he doing over there?"

 

most o' our problems with jnpc ai is simply a matter o' their choice o' pathfinding or targets. pathfinding has always been a problem with crpgs. cannot recall a single party-based crpg that did not inspire pathfinding concerns. pathfinding issues is multiplied if Gromnir cannot micromanage and fix as soon as we see jnpc alpha taking the most circuitous route possible to reach a target... managing to set off traps along the way, as well as attracting new opponents to the current battle.

 

other than the weird pathfinding stuff is the suicide charge problems. melee jnpcs do not pick targets in a reasonable manner. our party breaks down into a charlie fox scenario far too quickly for our tastes.

 

...

 

the reason why Gromnir has suggested the notion o' "plays" analogous to called plays in sports, is 'cause ai of particular party members, even if it seems logical to programmer, fails to recognize that the party member character is part o' a group. the behavior of 4 different characters with completely reasonable ai will eventually becomes baffling to a player 'cause o' fact that such ai ignores the fact that in a party-based game, teamwork is necessary. need a Group ai to really be effective.

 

*shrug*

 

realizing that party members with individual ai scripts is always gonna eventually do stuff counter to benefit o' the party, Gromnir would likes to see a more streamlined and simple manner to gets jnpcs to move to point A or point B, or to attack target A or Target B. got all kinda hotkeys for spells n' such, but we would get more use out o' a hotkey menu for directing jnpcs.

 

haven't paid too much attention to this thread, so don't know if we is repeating suggestions already made. if so, ignore or accept as additional support.

 

HA! Good Fun!