PETITION: PLEASE CHANGE THE INFINITE AMMO DESIGN

[Patrick K Mills]

I believe in you, buddy! It's okay if I call you buddy, right?

Sure.

[Gorth]

we are crazy anti-ammo fascists who hate Jagged Alliance 2 and System Shock.

I knew it! >_

 

Ok, that was a shameless manipulative out of context quoting stunt

 

It's an answer. I can understand the reasoning. Not everybody might and I am sure a few hotheads will argue for the sake of arguing, but that doesn' change that it was considered and got relegated to "irrelevant" for what people are trying to accomplish with the game

 

Hint: If we had more tidbits of info about the game, we could quarrel about other things than ammo

[mkreku]

A choice had to be made about what we want the player to spend time doing and thinking about, and where we put our efforts when building systems and assets. This is the choice we made. Ultimately the public determines if we made the right choice, but I'm fully confident that we did.

Hmm. Are you also proponents of the "every player should get to the end" school of design? And Valve's "there's no point in designing stuff that are outside the scope of the average player (thus removing all incentive to go exploring because you always know that exactly everything Valve put into the game is lying on the main path)"?

 

I don't know. I like to think about ammo managing and even inventory Tetris when I am playing a game that's supposedly somewhat realistic. I don't care that I can carry more crap than a ten ton truck in Gothic since it pales in comparison to fighting trolls and flinging magic spells around. In a game using real weapons, I want real ammo. And I don't want to be able to carry fifteen different rifles at once. If I play a spy, I want the limitations that comes with being human and a spy, as well as the benefits (gadgets, training, etc.). Having unlimited ammo is almost like introducing magic into a world that I'm supposed to believe in, while still letting me toy around with an AK-47.

 

I'm glad you're confident about your decision. I bet Harvey Smith was too when he sent the gold master for printing.

[Enoch]

I haven't read the entire thread, but at the risk of repeating what some extremely insightful poster has already said, I prefer unlimited ammo.

 

Why? Because this game is supposed to be spy game, not a shoot game. Micromanaging ammo resources makes me spend gaming time debating with myself over how I'm going to go about shooting fozzles. That's what I do in pretty much every other game out there on the market. Screw that-- it's boring and doesn't fit particularly well with the whole superspy vibe they're going for. Really, how many missions in spy movies does the hero go out with the explicit intent to off some dude? Sure, there may be some incidental gunplay along the way, but strapping on bandoliers of shotgun shells isn't really part of the whole superspy idiom.

[Tale]

what some extremely insightful poster has already said, I prefer unlimited ammo.

Did I say that?

 

Hint: If we had more tidbits of info about the game, we could quarrel about other things than ammo >_

Yeah, like who gets dibs on the chick with pink hair.

[Cycloneman]

Yeah, like who gets dibs on the chick with pink hair.

Dude.

 

She's jailbait.

[Tale]

Craaaaaap.

[Alvin Nelson]

Great job reading the fine print, Tale. And by fine print, i meant the drivers license.

[Hell Kitty]

I'm glad you're confident about your decision. I bet Harvey Smith was too when he sent the gold master for printing.

 

Smith regretted the decision not to develop their own engine sometime during development, so the comparison doesn't really stand.

Edited June 4, 2008 by Hell Kitty

[random n00b]

Meh. I reserve the right to change my opinion when more info is released, but just "it's really cool" and "we base a lot of our mechanics on that", isn't convincing at all.

 

That's OK, I'm not testing my orbital mind control rays, I'm just telling you that we made the decision for a good reason and we're happy with it.

So you say, but I wear my tin foil hat 24/7 just in case, mister.

 

I'm not saying this decision can't benefit the game. It's just that I don't see how it can. But perhaps that's why I'm not designing games. I just hope this doesn't turn out to be another balance-breaking decision. I'll have to wait and see.

 

EDIT: It's cool that you show up and stand by your work, though. I hope it's not the last we'll hear from ya. Kudos.

 

Hmm. Are you also proponents of the "every player should get to the end" school of design? And Valve's "there's no point in designing stuff that are outside the scope of the average player (thus removing all incentive to go exploring because you always know that exactly everything Valve put into the game is lying on the main path)"?

Hopefully not. It sure doesn't look that way, from the way side-missions are handled... Edited June 4, 2008 by random n00b

[Gorgon]

Forgoing a proper ammo system for spending that development time elsewhere is a bit problematic. Aren't you worried no one will buy the game just on faith that it's actually a worthwhile trade off ?.

Edited June 4, 2008 by Gorgon

[random n00b]

If it's a choice between a proper ammo system and an overall finished game, I think they may have learned something from K2...

[Humodour]

And I'm not easy to please, I'm only slightly less nitpicky than, say, Saint Proverbius.

 

Oh dear.

 

P.S.: I now support unlimited ammo in the context of this game.

Edited June 4, 2008 by Krezack

[SteveThaiBinh]

We still don't have a feel for the tone of the game. I mean, things like 'Bauer, Bourne and Bond' have been tossed around, but those are very different franchises that may or may not mesh well together and could surely do so in many different ways. Every little detail that gets released is scrutinised for what it means for the game as a whole. Perhaps that's not fair, but it's understandable.

[Pidesco]

IT really depends on thegame. If they decided to do the same unlimited ammo thing with the Aliens RPG I'd be a lot more worried.

[Humodour]

IT really depends on thegame. If they decided to do the same unlimited ammo thing with the Aliens RPG I'd be a lot more worried.

 

Definitely. I think System Shock 2 got it right when it comes to aliens, horror, and limited ammo (and shoddy weapons) helping to breed suspense.

[Xard]

Infinite ammo solves a number of very nasty problems, and what we lose from it is rather insignificant compared to the problems it solves.

 

What are these very nasty problems then? If including finite ammo indeed brings so many problems why vast majority of games - especially those who center exclusively on combat - then choose to use this system and why does it (in here too) get majority's support as system?

 

"If this game had been made ten or fifteen years ago and you read on a BBS or in the pages of CGW that we decided that the player character wouldn't starve do death if he didn't carry rations people would have had a fit, citing many of the same arguments that have been floated in this very thread."

 

 

Will to have ration-eating mechanics (lol) uses same arguments? I didn't know tactics, strategy, planning and equality of playstyles had so much to do with if I have to eat pork once a day or never. Truly it must be wonder how these gamers of old managed to bring in uselessness of melee ( in comparison ) when arguing against eternal fasting!

 

 

"In this game you don't have limited ammo because, quite simply, we wanted to spend our resources and your focus on other areas. "

 

Yet you drum about combat and combat mechanics quite much in each preview don't you? And call Alpha Protocol Action RPG. Screenshots so far have given special love to situations involving guns instead of - say - dialogue screens which are anyway already transformed into half-dialogue/half-cutscene hybrid. Ammunition question is big part of overall combat mechanics both directly and especially indirectly as I tried to point out in my long posts.

 

So AP is action RPG but resources are spend and focused on other areas of what? I'd think combat mechanics are quite big focus indeed and infinite ammo has never done any good for these mechanics before. Or maybe it's just that it is so much easier to jus throw in infinite ammo and not having to worry about how to distribute ammo etc.?

 

Sorry, but feels like dumping down ("streamlining") needlessly, just like some other aspects.

 

What about not being able to drag enemy bodies (at least not in the current build) which is core mechanic of any "stealth action" (yes I went to wikipedia to find out what's the genres name) game/hybrid or not being able to pick up enemy weapons?

 

All of this done in name of "streamlining". Doesn't it make sense to think infinite ammo design is merely part of this streamlining too?

"That doesn't mean that we are crazy anti-ammo fascists who hate Jagged Alliance 2 and System Shock."

 

 

Oh right, if Aliens RPG will feature unlimited ammo... "hell hath no fury like a fan scorned"

 

A choice had to be made about what we want the player to spend time doing and thinking about, and where we put our efforts when building systems and assets."

 

 

This is completely understandable and essential part of game designing.

 

"This is the choice we made."

 

Of course when trying to maximize efficiency of development etc. there's also thing known as going too far. That's what happened with DX: IW. With TLJ: Dreamfall game itself was efficiently taken away

 

 

All in all this whole "streamlining" thing (infinite ammo, no body dragging, no picking up weapons and who knows what else) was the first negative and fishy smelling news on the game for me.

 

For the record in otherwise good games streamlining utterly destroyed Kotors combat system. What Bioware did doesn't sound too different with them "streamlining" mechanics to better suit console pad.

 

 

"Ultimately the public determines if we made the right choice, but I'm fully confident that we did."

 

This is true.

 

 

Oh, and sorry if I sounded attackive. You bothering to post in here is valued

 

This doesn't mean I just stop and start to build altar when Developer steps in however

 

I believe in you, buddy! It's okay if I call you buddy, right?

 

Traitor

 

She's jailbait.

 

We can hope she turns 18 in course of the game can we?

 

 

And I'm not easy to please, I'm only slightly less nitpicky than, say, Saint Proverbius.

 

Oh dear.

 

P.S.: I now support unlimited ammo in the context of this game.

 

Traitor

Edited June 4, 2008 by Xard

[Tale]

I believe in you, buddy! It's okay if I call you buddy, right?

 

Traitor

I don't recall ever saying I was on your side.

 

*backstab*

[Xard]

Damn you Brutus!

 

Good thing I'm lich so sneak attacks won't work

 

*casts fireball*

 

edit: that wasn't smartest choice considering your high reflex saves

Edited June 4, 2008 by Xard

[Slowtrain]

Well, the devs have done what we asked: they came aboard and gave us some rationale. To berate them anymore over this decision is somewhat useless and may inhibit further dialogue. We just have to see how it turns out.

 

As I have said previously, I believe the a finite limitation on ammo in every possible way (carrying, acquiring, anything) is ALWAYS preferable to the opposite regardless of game type or genre. That's just my take. However, if there are enough interesting things in a game, unlimite ammo is hardley anything close to a deal breaker when it comes to enjoying a game.

 

I look forward to more info on the tone and feel of the game in the future.

 

Thnks to all the devs for their reponses.

[Xard]

...except that they didn't tell us what they mean with "big nasty problems"

[Tale]

I would think that such details might give away more of the mechanics than they are ready to divulge.

[Xard]

I would think that such details might give away more of the mechanics than they are ready to divulge.

 

Yeah, that may be it

 

 

But then you shouldn't say all is explained, God's in Hea-*represses urge to end sentence with Browning's Pippa passes*

 

( Also, related to this )

 

I've said before I'd be fine with decision if it showed some rationale but judging from preview all I can see was "streamlining "

[Tale]

But then you shouldn't say all is explained,

I agree. Good thing nobody did say that.

[Xard]

Well, this was kinda "we got rationale so stop asking stupid questions" when no such rationale was given

 

Well, the devs have done what we asked: they came aboard and gave us some rationale. To berate them anymore over this decision is somewhat useless and may inhibit further dialogue.