Torture!

[random n00b]

Terrorism is "evil" now, because we're the ones writing the newsflashes. If they actually "won", they'd be the ones writing history and they'd make sure they won't be remembered as murderous fanatics. There have been instances of this, in fact. Good and evil are behavioral constructs, inventions implanted into you before you can rationalize them.

 

Thinking that stuff that just reading about makes your skin crawl shouldn't be done to anyone is not entirely rational because for starters, you wouldn't be caught in a terrorist training camp in the depths of Afghanistan.

[Musopticon?]

Yup.

 

Now, how was that relevant to Brdays' argument of US becoming what they are fighting against?

Edited April 3, 2008 by Musopticon?

[random n00b]

It was relevant in that the moral distinction between the US and its enemies has always been imaginary. Both sides do what they think they should... and then make up various moral workarounds to justify it.

[Meshugger]

This is too much. Considering what a huge progress mankind has done in the last 100 years, we suddenly don't know?! whether torture is "ok" or even worse: "Maybe it works if we torture a little bit? You know, in a more humane way, like waterboarding."

 

Of course torture is not "ok". What's the matter with you people?

[Tigranes]

It was relevant in that the moral distinction between the US and its enemies has always been imaginary.

 

You forgot to finish the sentence: "...imaginary, though the fact that morality is imagined does not mean we should discard it."

 

Saying there is no good and evil in the world at all and we are all pond scum is just as unproductive and dangerous as saying the US is the guardian of the world and will always be a force of righteous good, sort of like Superman Gundam.

[Musopticon?]

sort of like Superman Gundam.

[random n00b]

It was relevant in that the moral distinction between the US and its enemies has always been imaginary.

 

You forgot to finish the sentence: "...imaginary, though the fact that morality is imagined does not mean we should discard it."

 

Saying there is no good and evil in the world at all and we are all pond scum is just as unproductive and dangerous as saying the US is the guardian of the world and will always be a force of righteous good, sort of like Superman Gundam.

There's no need to discard morality. Since it's something completely made up, it's so plastic that it can be twisted to support any line of action. Thinking ourselves better than our forebears is just another clever trick to establish the alleged superiority of the currently prevalent morality. People just do whatever it takes to get through the day - or die, making the point moot.

 

And now I'm going to steer clear of this discussion, since I'm derailing the thread and, as you said yourself, this line of debate is unproductive. Albeit funny as mental gymnastics.

[Gorgon]

Eradicating a terrorist organization by anti terror means such as torture, abduction, death squads, assassinations, seems to have a very poor track record. Israel has tried assassinations for decades with no tangible results, and there are costs to draconian measures for a democracy.

 

The threat posed by terrorism compared to say ,war, is negliable. One response would be to simply accept that a liberal democracy is the target of terrorism once in a while, because the weaknesses that make terrorist able to operate are the same ones that define the country: freedom of assembly, freedom of movement, freedom of the press, due process of the law. If we are to be permanently on vigil, do we permanently damage these constitutional guarantees ?

 

There are, in short, very few truly effective choices, and doing something, is not always better than doing nothing.

[Humodour]

Man you're a morbid bunch, aren't you?

[Walsingham]

Is torture effective?

 

Washington Post editorial with quotes from experts.

 

MSNBC transcript with quotes from their military analyst, a retired Army (U.S.) colonel.

 

These are just two of the many hits Google turned up when I typed in "is torture effective". There's plenty of reading out there.

 

Thanks for those.

 

Randomn00b, I would suggest that

 

1. You read the excellent thread debate we had recently on good an evil. Both sides had a good crack at it.

2. I also suspect that to assert there is no such thing as evil is to affirm that you've never seen anything remotely evil. Lucky you.

[Gfted1]

Well Im not getting into morality or method, only effectiveness. Id like to think Id take a good beating for mom and apple pie but I know inside that as soon as they aim a hot poker at my wang I'd be singing like a canary.

 

So, what were left with then is; is it real or is it fiction. That comes down to a skilled interregator and the value of the detainee. You dont take the first answer you get and go nuke something. Repeated questioning, corroberation with other information, etc... Also, interregating a dirt farmer that doesnt know anything anyway would be a waste. Of course they will spout whatever it takes to stop the pain. A high value target can almost certainly be forced to divulge the information he has. As we can probably all agree, everyone has a breaking point.

Edited April 3, 2008 by Gfted1

[walkerguy]

Who/what/where determined that torture produces only lies?

 

Well, torture victims have been known to give false confessions to stop the pain - but I believe that those instances were mainly when the persons were subjected to extreme physical abuse.

 

They just tell you any old b*****cks. Whatever they think you want to hear. the only possible good this could do is if you were abstractedly interested in what people thought you wanted to hear.

I should also repeat that it isn't just first hand stuff, or even every single first hand professional I've ever met and discussed it with*. It's also in page after page of history.

* Amateurs discuss tactics. Professionals discuss logistics. Old soldiers discuss toilets facilities. Weirdos discuss torture.

 

If they lie torture them again and threaten something besides themselves. No, thats the point were it turns from acceptable to wrong, but still, what are you to do to extract the intel you need?

 

Yes, this is NOT a moral discussion. I've had quite enough of that.

[Gorgon]

Why use the word 'wrong' if it's not a moral question.

 

I know, those are demanding on the little gray cells.

[Hildegard]

Waterboarding is ok by the US but when the Japanese did it to US officers, those Japanese were executed when captured.

 

Standard issue US hypocrisy

Edited April 4, 2008 by Hildegard

[Xard]

Hildegard, **** off

 

Any kind of torture is still torture and bannable

[Nick_i_am]

I think you missed his point.

[Sand]

I think you missed his point.

 

It was over his head and between his knees.

[Xard]

I think you missed his point.

 

No I didn't

 

 

"Any kind of torture is still torture and bannable"

 

 

This was general answer to this topic. It has nothing to do with Hildegard.

 

His baaaww USA in teh devil just gets tiresome after a while. He's no better in his views than Bush's propaganda, they're just opposite

[J.E. Sawyer]

An excellent argument:

 

http://people.brandeis.edu/~teuber/torture.html

I'm sorry, walkerguy, but the "Manhattan bomb" scenario described is very far from the typical case in which torture/enhanced interrogation is applied. It takes for granted many facts that are often quite blurry or unknown when dealing with Random Imprisoned Dude #28361. E.g. this person definitely is a terrorist, definitely knows something of value, etc. It's a really bad way to argue for a general policy because such scenarios are so rare.

 

Torture most certainly can get valuable information out of people. But if we knew what information were in a person's head, there'd be no reason to torture them, would there? For every Al-Qaeda Miniboss that we capture and interrogate, there are a whole lot of... just dudes. People who were captured during fighting, or who were marked as a terrorist by some other piece of intelligence. Getting intel out of them is like trying to squeeze blood from a stone. But that doesn't stop the squeezing.

 

Our modern versions of torture are comparatively humane -- nothing listed in this thread can compare to vaginal/rectal pears, thumbscrews, the strappado, or the Judas cradle. But they carry with them the same basic limitation of Medieval/Early Modern torture: the unreliability of gathered information. This is especially bad when any gained intel points toward other people. The worst witch-hunts in the HRE involved torturing accused witches and forcing them to name other members of their coven. Since the victims weren't actually witches, they eventually just named people they disliked. Those people were then brought in and tortured, and they in turn named others. Whole villages were wiped out in this fashion. The process -- then as now -- relies upon dangerous logical assumptions that, at best, mistakenly subject innocents to incredible physical and mental anguish. At worst, it yields terrible misinformation, gross tactical errors, and innocent deaths.

 

In the right circumstances, individuals and governments can be excused or even applauded for performing actions that would otherwise be reprehensible. But our interrogation cells aren't filled with people who definitely planted atomic bombs on Manhattan Island. Mythic examples can't be used as arguments for general policy. I think if American citizens felt that those being subjected to torture/enhanced interrogation passed a higher threshold than "suspicion" or "accusation", the techniques used would not be criticized as harshly.

[random n00b]

"Enhanced interrogation", heh. Whenever I read one of those phrases, I'm always reminded of "wardrobe malfunction", for some sick reason.

 

Anyway, you some kind of History buff? You seem to know your stuff pretty good.

[kirottu]

Anyway, you some kind of History buff? You seem to know your stuff pretty good.

 

Well, since almost every comment that Grommir makes about Sawyer

[Sand]

In any case if we, the US government and people, are going to claim to have higher moral values than those who are our enemies we need to abandon all use of torture.

[random n00b]

You running for the White House or what?

[Sand]

If I was the whole world would be in trouble. I like pressing big red buttons. (tee hee )

[J.E. Sawyer]

"Enhanced interrogation", heh. Whenever I read one of those phrases, I'm always reminded of "wardrobe malfunction", for some sick reason.

 

Anyway, you some kind of History buff? You seem to know your stuff pretty good.

It's almost too clich