random n00b Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Terrorism is "evil" now, because we're the ones writing the newsflashes. If they actually "won", they'd be the ones writing history and they'd make sure they won't be remembered as murderous fanatics. There have been instances of this, in fact. Good and evil are behavioral constructs, inventions implanted into you before you can rationalize them. Thinking that stuff that just reading about makes your skin crawl shouldn't be done to anyone is not entirely rational because for starters, you wouldn't be caught in a terrorist training camp in the depths of Afghanistan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musopticon? Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 (edited) Yup. Now, how was that relevant to Brdays' argument of US becoming what they are fighting against? Edited April 3, 2008 by Musopticon? kirottu said: I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden. It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai. So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
random n00b Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 It was relevant in that the moral distinction between the US and its enemies has always been imaginary. Both sides do what they think they should... and then make up various moral workarounds to justify it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meshugger Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 This is too much. Considering what a huge progress mankind has done in the last 100 years, we suddenly don't know?! whether torture is "ok" or even worse: "Maybe it works if we torture a little bit? You know, in a more humane way, like waterboarding." Of course torture is not "ok". What's the matter with you people? "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigranes Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 It was relevant in that the moral distinction between the US and its enemies has always been imaginary. You forgot to finish the sentence: "...imaginary, though the fact that morality is imagined does not mean we should discard it." Saying there is no good and evil in the world at all and we are all pond scum is just as unproductive and dangerous as saying the US is the guardian of the world and will always be a force of righteous good, sort of like Superman Gundam. Let's Play: Icewind Dale Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Icewind Dale II Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Divinity II (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG1 (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG2 (In Progress) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musopticon? Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 sort of like Superman Gundam. kirottu said: I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden. It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai. So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
random n00b Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 It was relevant in that the moral distinction between the US and its enemies has always been imaginary. You forgot to finish the sentence: "...imaginary, though the fact that morality is imagined does not mean we should discard it." Saying there is no good and evil in the world at all and we are all pond scum is just as unproductive and dangerous as saying the US is the guardian of the world and will always be a force of righteous good, sort of like Superman Gundam. There's no need to discard morality. Since it's something completely made up, it's so plastic that it can be twisted to support any line of action. Thinking ourselves better than our forebears is just another clever trick to establish the alleged superiority of the currently prevalent morality. People just do whatever it takes to get through the day - or die, making the point moot. And now I'm going to steer clear of this discussion, since I'm derailing the thread and, as you said yourself, this line of debate is unproductive. Albeit funny as mental gymnastics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgon Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Eradicating a terrorist organization by anti terror means such as torture, abduction, death squads, assassinations, seems to have a very poor track record. Israel has tried assassinations for decades with no tangible results, and there are costs to draconian measures for a democracy. The threat posed by terrorism compared to say ,war, is negliable. One response would be to simply accept that a liberal democracy is the target of terrorism once in a while, because the weaknesses that make terrorist able to operate are the same ones that define the country: freedom of assembly, freedom of movement, freedom of the press, due process of the law. If we are to be permanently on vigil, do we permanently damage these constitutional guarantees ? There are, in short, very few truly effective choices, and doing something, is not always better than doing nothing. Na na na na na na ... greg358 from Darksouls 3 PVP is a CHEATER. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humodour Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Man you're a morbid bunch, aren't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Is torture effective? Washington Post editorial with quotes from experts. MSNBC transcript with quotes from their military analyst, a retired Army (U.S.) colonel. These are just two of the many hits Google turned up when I typed in "is torture effective". There's plenty of reading out there. Thanks for those. Randomn00b, I would suggest that 1. You read the excellent thread debate we had recently on good an evil. Both sides had a good crack at it. 2. I also suspect that to assert there is no such thing as evil is to affirm that you've never seen anything remotely evil. Lucky you. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfted1 Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 (edited) Well Im not getting into morality or method, only effectiveness. Id like to think Id take a good beating for mom and apple pie but I know inside that as soon as they aim a hot poker at my wang I'd be singing like a canary. So, what were left with then is; is it real or is it fiction. That comes down to a skilled interregator and the value of the detainee. You dont take the first answer you get and go nuke something. Repeated questioning, corroberation with other information, etc... Also, interregating a dirt farmer that doesnt know anything anyway would be a waste. Of course they will spout whatever it takes to stop the pain. A high value target can almost certainly be forced to divulge the information he has. As we can probably all agree, everyone has a breaking point. Edited April 3, 2008 by Gfted1 "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkerguy Posted April 3, 2008 Author Share Posted April 3, 2008 Who/what/where determined that torture produces only lies? Well, torture victims have been known to give false confessions to stop the pain - but I believe that those instances were mainly when the persons were subjected to extreme physical abuse. They just tell you any old b*****cks. Whatever they think you want to hear. the only possible good this could do is if you were abstractedly interested in what people thought you wanted to hear. I should also repeat that it isn't just first hand stuff, or even every single first hand professional I've ever met and discussed it with*. It's also in page after page of history. * Amateurs discuss tactics. Professionals discuss logistics. Old soldiers discuss toilets facilities. Weirdos discuss torture. If they lie torture them again and threaten something besides themselves. No, thats the point were it turns from acceptable to wrong, but still, what are you to do to extract the intel you need? Yes, this is NOT a moral discussion. I've had quite enough of that. Twitter | @Insevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgon Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Why use the word 'wrong' if it's not a moral question. I know, those are demanding on the little gray cells. Na na na na na na ... greg358 from Darksouls 3 PVP is a CHEATER. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hildegard Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 (edited) Waterboarding is ok by the US but when the Japanese did it to US officers, those Japanese were executed when captured. Standard issue US hypocrisy Edited April 4, 2008 by Hildegard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xard Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 Hildegard, **** off Any kind of torture is still torture and bannable How can it be a no ob build. It has PROVEN effective. I dare you to show your builds and I will tear you apart in an arugment about how these builds will won them. - OverPowered Godzilla (OPG) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick_i_am Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 I think you missed his point. (Approved by Fio, so feel free to use it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand Posted April 5, 2008 Share Posted April 5, 2008 I think you missed his point. It was over his head and between his knees. Murphy's Law of Computer Gaming: The listed minimum specifications written on the box by the publisher are not the minimum specifications of the game set by the developer. @\NightandtheShape/@ - "Because you're a bizzare strange deranged human?" Walsingham- "Sand - always rushing around, stirring up apathy." Joseph Bulock - "Another headache, courtesy of Sand" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xard Posted April 6, 2008 Share Posted April 6, 2008 I think you missed his point. No I didn't "Any kind of torture is still torture and bannable" This was general answer to this topic. It has nothing to do with Hildegard. His baaaww USA in teh devil just gets tiresome after a while. He's no better in his views than Bush's propaganda, they're just opposite How can it be a no ob build. It has PROVEN effective. I dare you to show your builds and I will tear you apart in an arugment about how these builds will won them. - OverPowered Godzilla (OPG) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.E. Sawyer Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 An excellent argument: http://people.brandeis.edu/~teuber/torture.html I'm sorry, walkerguy, but the "Manhattan bomb" scenario described is very far from the typical case in which torture/enhanced interrogation is applied. It takes for granted many facts that are often quite blurry or unknown when dealing with Random Imprisoned Dude #28361. E.g. this person definitely is a terrorist, definitely knows something of value, etc. It's a really bad way to argue for a general policy because such scenarios are so rare. Torture most certainly can get valuable information out of people. But if we knew what information were in a person's head, there'd be no reason to torture them, would there? For every Al-Qaeda Miniboss that we capture and interrogate, there are a whole lot of... just dudes. People who were captured during fighting, or who were marked as a terrorist by some other piece of intelligence. Getting intel out of them is like trying to squeeze blood from a stone. But that doesn't stop the squeezing. Our modern versions of torture are comparatively humane -- nothing listed in this thread can compare to vaginal/rectal pears, thumbscrews, the strappado, or the Judas cradle. But they carry with them the same basic limitation of Medieval/Early Modern torture: the unreliability of gathered information. This is especially bad when any gained intel points toward other people. The worst witch-hunts in the HRE involved torturing accused witches and forcing them to name other members of their coven. Since the victims weren't actually witches, they eventually just named people they disliked. Those people were then brought in and tortured, and they in turn named others. Whole villages were wiped out in this fashion. The process -- then as now -- relies upon dangerous logical assumptions that, at best, mistakenly subject innocents to incredible physical and mental anguish. At worst, it yields terrible misinformation, gross tactical errors, and innocent deaths. In the right circumstances, individuals and governments can be excused or even applauded for performing actions that would otherwise be reprehensible. But our interrogation cells aren't filled with people who definitely planted atomic bombs on Manhattan Island. Mythic examples can't be used as arguments for general policy. I think if American citizens felt that those being subjected to torture/enhanced interrogation passed a higher threshold than "suspicion" or "accusation", the techniques used would not be criticized as harshly. twitter tyme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
random n00b Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 "Enhanced interrogation", heh. Whenever I read one of those phrases, I'm always reminded of "wardrobe malfunction", for some sick reason. Anyway, you some kind of History buff? You seem to know your stuff pretty good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirottu Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 Anyway, you some kind of History buff? You seem to know your stuff pretty good. Well, since almost every comment that Grommir makes about Sawyer This post is not to be enjoyed, discussed, or referenced on company time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 In any case if we, the US government and people, are going to claim to have higher moral values than those who are our enemies we need to abandon all use of torture. Murphy's Law of Computer Gaming: The listed minimum specifications written on the box by the publisher are not the minimum specifications of the game set by the developer. @\NightandtheShape/@ - "Because you're a bizzare strange deranged human?" Walsingham- "Sand - always rushing around, stirring up apathy." Joseph Bulock - "Another headache, courtesy of Sand" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
random n00b Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 You running for the White House or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sand Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 If I was the whole world would be in trouble. I like pressing big red buttons. (tee hee ) Murphy's Law of Computer Gaming: The listed minimum specifications written on the box by the publisher are not the minimum specifications of the game set by the developer. @\NightandtheShape/@ - "Because you're a bizzare strange deranged human?" Walsingham- "Sand - always rushing around, stirring up apathy." Joseph Bulock - "Another headache, courtesy of Sand" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.E. Sawyer Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 "Enhanced interrogation", heh. Whenever I read one of those phrases, I'm always reminded of "wardrobe malfunction", for some sick reason. Anyway, you some kind of History buff? You seem to know your stuff pretty good. It's almost too clich twitter tyme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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