Just in case you were wondering

[Gorth]

I keep hearing about this MMO game... I should look it up on Wikipedia some day

 

well, I checked and it just doesn't say....apparently, the firm he is with is like a subcontractor of NCSoft, the makers

of Guild Wars, City of Heroes, etc.

 

I wonder if it is a pre-existing title like that or some new deal....

I was being sarcastic. I meant MMO's in general, no one in particular. Never played one because they sound incredibly boring to me

[Sand]

Sorry Nightie, but I call them as I see them. Every aspect of ToEE, programming, design, story telling, and quality assurance, was a failure. One of the worse games I have ever bought. It was so bad that I didn't even bother to get Bloodlines til after Troika was dead and gone, and I got it for $10. After ToEE I am wary of any game that has Tim Caine's handiwork in it.

Edited February 6, 2008 by Sand

[Walsingham]

Sorry Nightie, but I call them as I see them. Every aspect of ToEE, programming, design, story telling, and quality assurance, was a failure. One of the worse games I have ever bought. It was so bad that I didn't even bother to get Bloodlines til after Troika was dead and gone, and I got it for $10. After ToEE I am wary of any game that has Tim Caine's handiwork in it.

 

You mean, like Fallout?

[Sand]

Was Fallout AFTER ToEE?

 

Lets actually look at what I wrote here:

 

After ToEE I am wary of any game that has Tim Caine's handiwork in it.

 

After ToEE...

 

After ToEE...

 

Lets see it again shall we.

 

After ToEE...

 

Isn't being able to read a prerequisite of being a moderator, Walsh?

Edited February 6, 2008 by Sand

[Walsingham]

As a matter of fact is isn't, any more than writing clear English is a prerequisite of being a member.

 

Your statement "After ToEE I am wary of any game that has Tim Caine's handiwork in it." I took to imply that after you witnessed ToEE his games were suspect in your eyes. Rather than his game making ability suddenly went kablooie after writing ToEE.

[Sand]

Well, get it right next time. Don't use the ambiguity of the English language as an excuse next time. REALLY!

 

Its not that I think his skills went kablooie (is that a technical term?). Just that he seems to have a problem working with more modern game engines compared to the old 2D ones of yesteryear. He needs a skills update. I wonder if that is downloadable...

 

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

Well, get it right next time. Don't use the ambiguity of the English language as an excuse next time. REALLY!

 

Its not that I think his skills went kablooie (is that a technical term?). Just that he seems to have a problem working with more modern game engines compared to the old 2D ones of yesteryear. He needs a skills update. I wonder if that is downloadable...

 

 

I'm sorry but it doesn't work like that, I wish it was more straight forwards but, sadly it isn't. Also you can't say what you see if what you see is based upon ignorance, very much like looking at a shadow of a woman and saying based upon her shadow she is ugly, when infact she may actually not be.

 

Alot of 2D skills are relevent in 3D games. ToEE didn't have all that much 3D involved with it, and Bloodlines uses an early version of the source engine anyways... Most of the problems with games are because bugs aren't known about thus they cannot be fixed! Heck I write software on a daily basis and often it will take another person to find bugs before I can fix it, naturally all bugs are fixed as I find them myself. It's very easy to believe something is working but when presented with new conditions find that it isn't and then have to fix the problem.

 

There is good and bad in all games, NWN2 for example still has some horrible icky nasty bugs which make me want to slap the entire team round the face with a wet fish! It's just that the bugs themselves don't totally break the game, though one of them could be percieved as a game breaking bug, but it's got a possible work around.

 

In my experience ToEE was always more stable for me than NWN's 2 has been, but that said, I have't played as much of ToEE as I have NWN's 2, so it's definately a somewhat unfair comparison.

 

Simple and to the point, Bad Games != Bad Code. There is good and bad in all projects that any team works upon, the render for a game could be awesome but the HUD and interface could be a nightmare slop of code that the slightest alteration breaks everything and causes a headache. A part of code can be bad while another part extremely good.

[Humodour]

Sorry Nightie, but I call them as I see them. Every aspect of ToEE, programming, design, story telling, and quality assurance, was a failure. One of the worse games I have ever bought. It was so bad that I didn't even bother to get Bloodlines til after Troika was dead and gone, and I got it for $10. After ToEE I am wary of any game that has Tim Caine's handiwork in it.

 

How much do you know about programming?

 

I didn't like ToEE, but I couldn't see anything wrong with the programming.

[Sand]

All I care about is if a game is going to work when I load it and fun when I play it. ToEE I couldn't even to get it to load up till after the first patch. When I started playing it there was so many glitches the game crashed more often than not. It was so bad that I never gotten past the moat house in that game. I just couldn't stand it any more. In comparison between ToEE and NWN2, NWN2 was flawless.

[taks]

there's like what, 3 successful MMOs in history, and someone is unveiling yet another studio dedicated to MMOs? seems a bit naive, IMO.

 

taks

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

All I care about is if a game is going to work when I load it and fun when I play it. ToEE I couldn't even to get it to load up till after the first patch. When I started playing it there was so many glitches the game crashed more often than not. It was so bad that I never gotten past the moat house in that game. I just couldn't stand it any more. In comparison between ToEE and NWN2, NWN2 was flawless.

 

User experience is alway varied...

[Humodour]

All I care about is if a game is going to work when I load it and fun when I play it. ToEE I couldn't even to get it to load up till after the first patch. When I started playing it there was so many glitches the game crashed more often than not. It was so bad that I never gotten past the moat house in that game. I just couldn't stand it any more. In comparison between ToEE and NWN2, NWN2 was flawless.

 

That's QA not programming.

[Volourn]

"there's like what, 3 successful MMOs in history"

 

Actually, there's quite a few successful MMOs in history. What's this fixation with MMOs HAVING TO HAVE WOW level success to be considered successful? WOW! L0L

[Pop]

Given the recent string of high-profile MMO development cancellations, it's safe to assume that either modest success isn't enough to aspire to in this climate, or too many studios are expecting more.

[Walsingham]

there's like what, 3 successful MMOs in history, and someone is unveiling yet another studio dedicated to MMOs? seems a bit naive, IMO.

 

taks

 

That's n interesting point. There's a much more defined barrier to MMO take-up, because of the time factor. Or to give an example, I can buy a shooter or flight sim every week if I want to, complete it and move on. But the MMOs keep ticking, and clog bandwidth for newer MMOs trying to break through.

[taks]

Actually, there's quite a few successful MMOs in history. What's this fixation with MMOs HAVING TO HAVE WOW level success to be considered successful? WOW! L0L

there's a difference between profitable and "successful." in the context i was using, "successful" would imply WOW enough to conclude that there is a big enough market to support more than the three biggies (i'm thinking WoW, Everquest and isn't there a japanese one that's huge?). the percentage of dead MMO attempts vs. big ones is not the same as, for example, the percentage of dead FPS attempts vs. big ones. i just don't think the market is as big as these guys think it is... which is why we end up with so many failures. for that matter fallout was considered "successful" as it did make a modest profit, fallout 2 as well from what i remember, but it wasn't successful in the same sense as "there's definitely a huge market here we can exploit." hence it is 8 years later and still no follow-on nor an abundance of post-apoc crpgs.

 

taks

[taks]

There's a much more defined barrier to MMO take-up, because of the time factor. Or to give an example, I can buy a shooter or flight sim every week if I want to, complete it and move on. But the MMOs keep ticking, and clog bandwidth for newer MMOs trying to break through.

exactly my point... there is an even more restricted audience than crpg developers face simply because of what is already taken up. it's not like the whole of the audience in favor of MMOs is available. only a subset of those already dedicated to one or another will be willing to switch, and an even smaller subset that are willing to play more than one (or are capable of such a feat). the competition is decidedly different in this case. newer MMOs then have to rely on those that have not already gotten into MMOs, which is not a big chunk of the overall gaming market.

 

as an aside, or in addition to, how has tabula rasa faired? i haven't heard anything.

 

taks

[Hurlshort]

There is a huge number of MMO's on the market. Expectations can be different for each one, but the market hasn't reached the ceiling in terms how many it can support. Many MMO's die in development, but that has more to do with the fact it is a massive undertaking when compared to other genres, and money just runs out. Many MMO's undergo full rebuilds when it turns out they don't work, and not all publishers will bankroll that. Let's list the major ones:

 

Older MMO's that still manage a dedicated fan base - Ultima Online, Everquest, Asheron's Call, Star Wars: Galaxies (ok, barely kicking for this one)

 

Current stable MMO's - EVE Online, Lord of the Rings Online, Everquest 2, Lineage 2, Final Fantasy Online, Tabula Rasa (early to tell, but it has been well received)

 

Underperforming, but still kicking - D&D Online, Vanguard

 

Dead after release - Saga of Ryzom, Horizons, Shadowbane, Anarchy Online (I think?), Planetside (barely an MMO), Auto Assault, Earth: Above and Beyond...might be a couple older ones.

 

So you can see that if you actually get released, your odds of success are decent. WoW really is the exception, rather than the rule itself. Blizzard did not set out expecting millions of subscribers, so no MMO should set out with that goal in mind. I also didn't include any Korean MMO's in this group, although they seem to do decently in Asia (Lineage 2 being the exception, as it posted good numbers in the US). And I left of Phantasy Star Online, but I really don't even know what that is

[Gfted1]

Whats that one they play in Korea until they drop dead at the table? Its set in space and a part 2 is coming out soon (this year?).

 

EDIT: Just remembered; Starcraft.

Edited February 7, 2008 by Gfted1

[Sand]

That's QA not programming.

 

If the programming was done right there wouldn't be a need for QA.

[Xard]

That's QA not programming.

 

If the programming was done right there wouldn't be a need for QA.

 

Edited February 7, 2008 by Xard

[kirottu]

That's QA not programming.

 

If the programming was done right there wouldn't be a need for QA.

 

[Sand]

So you guys are saying that programming skills are irrelevant, that QA should fix all the errors in games? Then why should game companies hire programmers in the first place. Let them just have hoardes and hoardes of QA staff! NO PROGRAMMERS NEEDED!

 

SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

 

 

The purpose of QA is to find the problems not fix the problems in software. The bottomline, the code is the responsibility of the programmers to get it right. If a QA guy finds a problem and the programmers failed to fix it, who is to blame? The programmers. If the QA fails to find a problem, who coded the error in the first place? The programmers. The QA team is the spell checker of the document, not the writer.

Edited February 7, 2008 by Sand

[Xard]

Sand, I have no idea how you managed to create that logic. Next someone is going to divide by zero and world ends.

 

Bugs are natural, unavoidable part of the programming, there's nothing you can do about it.

[Sand]

There are bugs and there are bugs. Minor bugs I don't care to much about. I can still play the game and get some fun out of it. Bugs that makes a game fail to load or constantly crash, which should be a glaring clue something is not right with the code, should be caught prior of release if the programming staff were competently skilled.