Mask o' the Betrayer!

[Tigranes]

To clarify, he attacks if you if you can't persuade him, not autokill. But my rogue had no chance against him, CR Impossible even though I was level 28. Hrm.

[Starwars]

I wonder if it's possible to succeed that Diplomacy check though.

 

It's a neat twist for the character though. It's kind of a shame that it's sort of transparent though... I mean, One-of-Many suddenly starts speaking with the Childs voice after devouring Myrkul and wants you to meet him with no other party members nearby. It's sort of a give-away.

 

Nevertheless, I really enjoyed that twist.

[Tale]

I've been meaning to check to see if you can succeed that check. I'll do so now.

 

Edit: It's listed as an automatic failure. You can not succeed.

 

Edit2: You want to know an easy way to kill him? Vampiric Feast

Edited October 30, 2007 by Tale

[Tigranes]

My rogue ain't got VampFeast.

 

I guess I could do this back at the Veil, then talk to my party members and put them back int he party while OoM is attacking (i think you can) and then kill him. I don't think there's a way in hell my Rogue/Assassin can kill him.

[Oerwinde]

Hey Xard, that Kaelyn ending's actually the one I got. I don't have to heart to replay it for her infamous "sad" ending. :sad:

 

So go ahead and post those screenies too.

 

I think she has 3 endings. At least I've gotten two that werent' that one. One where she's a crappy leader and isn't able to do jack crap, and another where she's a beacon of hope then gets thrashed by Rammaq and lives the rest of her days as a mute because all her siblings were killed.

[jaguars4ever]

Hey Xard, that Kaelyn ending's actually the one I got. I don't have to heart to replay it for her infamous "sad" ending. :sad:

 

So go ahead and post those screenies too.

 

I think she has 3 endings. At least I've gotten two that werent' that one. One where she's a crappy leader and isn't able to do jack crap, and another where she's a beacon of hope then gets thrashed by Rammaq and lives the rest of her days as a mute because all her siblings were killed.

Awesome.

 

Or not. Poor Kaelyn. :sad:

[Xard]

Actually that leadership part is part of that Kaelyn ending I already posted. Something like she was too idealistic or too braze in her defiance of gods and that ultimately drove many of her followers away... I might take screencap later

 

 

Yay!

 

But now I'm in dilemma - who should I kick out of the party, Safiya, Gann or Kaelyn.

 

I don't want to kick Kaelyn out because if I have her and OoM in party I get plenty of bluff checks for fooling poor Kaelyn and if I succeed in them I gain plenty of influence with both of them (and I only have 12 influence with Kaelyn right now)

 

Safiya on other hand is great wizard and has more spells than my PC, natural considering I have 4 as fighter and 1 as rogue in addition to my wizard/EK levels.

 

With Gann I have 53 influence but the main reason I'd rather have him with me is that he is only sorceress type character in my party and if I learned something from my last playthrough as Spirit Shaman it is that they are powerful. And great healers as well

 

Currently I have Safiya out of my party. I guess I shall change her/Gann/Kaelyn, depending on place where I am going to. In Academy I'll naturally take Safiya, in Sunken City Gann etc.

 

Is there many chances to gain influence with Kaelyn in Sunken City? If not, I shall kick her out of the party for that time. Now I'm heading in Ashenwood. Who should I not take with me? Thoughts?

 

OoM shall be always with me, it's just too cool ^__^

Edited October 30, 2007 by Xard

[~Di]

Well, Flopsy and I finished the game. (Thanks to Rob McGinnis for directing me to a user-made mod that allows me to turn off auto-summoning of familiars).

 

Overall, great companions, interesting story, a worthy expansion! I loved Gann, Safiya and Okku. The Dove, well, she was sweet enough but too narrow-minded and driven. It was difficult to be pragmatic and keep the feathered one happy. Still, I was saddened by her fate. I'll have to study the posts in here to give her a happier ending next time.

 

On the downside, words cannot express my hatred of the damned Spirit Meter. I understand its necessity, since the entire game was centered around it... but damn. If it wasn't for the cheat code that let me ignore that utter and complete annoyance, I probably wouldn't have finished the game, because there was no way my lawful good character was going to run around sucking up souls... and then end up hooked like a junkie on heroine to boot! That was sadistic designing, pure and simple. *shudder* Evil characters were probably in their glory, but good characters... let's just say that using Suppress isn't all it's cracked up to be. Either way, I spent more time running around looking for spirits to suppress than I did actually immersing myself in the story and playing the game. Phooey on it.

 

Still a big thumbs up for me (thanks to that beloved cheat code), and I'm ready to start a new campaign, starting fresh with a brand new run-through of NWN2... I love that game.

 

So, Obsidian, you are 3-for-3 with me! The Sith Lords, NWN2, and now MOTB... all utterly terrific games, and high on my all-time favorite list!!

Edited October 30, 2007 by ~Di

[Gromnir]

normally waiting for the first patch is our plan before any game purchase... but not this time. caved.

 

only recent did we get to the spirit meter. quick observation... doesn't anybody else use eternal rest? does not shift us more to lawful. gives us spirit essence. with halfway powerful undead available by plundering any offering urn in dead god's vault, or sleeping in vault, we get a huge boost to spirit meter... far better than supress. used supress a half dozen times to reduce craving.

 

...

 

for us the annoyance o' the spirit meter is 'cause it is so easily overcome... is simply a pointless gameplay requirement that we must deal with before and after every long quest.

 

step 1) go to dead god's vault (cause a bug in our game has ended respawn o' undead in shadow town... hope this don't break game later.)

 

step 2) plunder an offering urn and gets a void wraith battle.

 

step 3) use eternal rest on void wraith and get brilliant spirit essence and a big boost to spirit meter w/o a rise in craving...

 

step 4) repeat steps 2 and 3 til reach 100% spirit meter.

 

step 5) go questing.

 

*shrug*

 

is simply a diversion from actual gameplay. used supress a handful o' times to reduce craving or if no undead is available. no more need for supress.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Tale]

It's meant (at least, partially) to be a mechanic to limit resting, as revealed by the countless interviews on the subject. It works wonderfully in this respect. You won't find yourself resting after every encounter.

Edited October 30, 2007 by Tale

[~Di]

I pretty much agree with Grommy that it was a diversion from gameplay... and for me, a diversion for immersing myself in what was the most intriguing RPG story I've run across in a long time. Actually, I did use Eternal Rest, but my problem was having to tromp back and forth to keep my meter up. And trust me, there are places in this game where you are unable to leave and there are NOT enough spirits to keep your juices flowing, if you know what I mean.

 

I simply got sick and tired of the diversion and the annoyance of spending more time watching that meter than having a long exploratory conversation with interesting peeps I'd met. So I got rid of the annoyance and thoroughly enjoyed the game!!

 

Edit: Oh, and if I want to rest then I'm gonna rest, dammit! I'm far too pretty to have bags under my cute little elven eyes.

Edited October 30, 2007 by ~Di

[Starwars]

Well, most of the complaints I've read about the spirit-meter is that people feel it's to hard to actually go devouring spirits. I would say the game/spirit-eater mechanic is much rougher on you if you're evil (and eat a lot of spirits), but you also gain certain powers at the expense of always being on the hunt. While I would've liked a different kind of balance (basically in that you're royally screwed either way, just in different ways, hehe), I think it does make sense.

 

I'm not gonna go into an argument here (getting tired of it after reading a million threads on this particular issue at the Bioware forums, heh), everyone has different opinions obviously, but did you *really* try to get into/learn this mechanic ~Di? Using Supress in the presence of spirits (Okku counts) and elementals (summoned elementals count) will boost your spirit-energy and reduce your craving at the same time.

You can get your craving down to 0 or close to it with no real problems at all, and after that your spiritmeter will go down at a *very* slow pace.

And as far as I know, the spirit-meter freezes when you're in conversations.

 

It's obviously not a mechanic that everyone will like. Personally I found it reinforced the story a lot. For me personally, I can get extremely annoyed at a plot that *insists* on bad stuff is happening, or that you *must* hurry, and yet nothing ever happens. I'm extremely happy that Obsidian included this thing (though I personally don't think it's implemented in a perfect way), and I really do feel that more RPGs should try to bring plot-elements over into the actual gameplay as well.

 

But yes, I guess that's one good thing about the NWN games. It's easy to customize them.

Edited October 30, 2007 by Starwars

[Tale]

I would have said it was easier if you're evil. You get to devour souls (humanoids) and an AoE devour.

[Xard]

By the way, I didn't get Storm giant's strenght beltzor from Okku - but I did get his spirit essence. Must I craft it from that or what? And if answer is yes, how I do that?

[Tale]

By the way, I didn't get Storm giant's strenght beltzor from Okku - but I did get his spirit essence. Must I craft it from that or what? And if answer is yes, how I do that?

No. You get it from the Shaman of the Ice Troll lodge.

[~Di]

Well, most of the complaints I've read about the spirit-meter is that people feel it's to hard to actually go devouring spirits. I would say the game/spirit-eater mechanic is much rougher on you if you're evil (and eat a lot of spirits), but you also gain certain powers at the expense of always being on the hunt. While I would've liked a different kind of balance (basically in that you're royally screwed either way, just in different ways, hehe), I think it does make sense.

 

I've already conceded that it makes sense, because the curse of spirit-eating is the core of the entire story. I loved the story. I just found dealing with the spirit meter to be annoying enough and tedious enough that it broke my immersion in the story itself.

 

I'm not gonna go into an argument here (getting tired of it after reading a million threads on this particular issue at the Bioware forums, heh), everyone has different opinions obviously, but did you *really* try to get into/learn this mechanic ~Di? Using Supress in the presence of spirits (Okku counts) and elementals (summoned elementals count) will boost your spirit-energy and reduce your craving at the same time.

You can get your craving down to 0 or close to it with no real problems at all, and after that your spiritmeter will go down at a *very* slow pace.

 

Ditto on the BioWare forums. I rarely venture an opinion over there, because no matter what is said somebody will take umbrage. Anyway, I gave the Spirit Meter a go for several hours, and think I had a pretty good handle on it. Thing is, it still just annoyed the heck out of me. It was quite doable (except for one particular maze-like area where death is imminent unless one has been through the game once, and can fly through the level at warp speed)... but doable doesn't mean that it wasn't tedious and decidedly unfun. For me, anyway.

 

 

And as far as I know, the spirit-meter freezes when you're in conversations.

 

It does. But my mind was always churning with whether I dared travel, or whether I dared talk to someone I may end up fighting with a depleted meter, or whether I could wait for dark so I could use a portal and hunt for spirits... and my mind doesn't like so danged much multi-tasking during it's "enjoyment" activities. I'm blonde, after all.

 

It's obviously not a mechanic that everyone will like. Personally I found it reinforced the story a lot. For me personally, I can get extremely annoyed at a plot that *insists* on bad stuff is happening, or that you *must* hurry, and yet nothing ever happens. I'm extremely happy that Obsidian included this thing (though I personally don't think it's implemented in a perfect way), and I really do feel that more RPGs should try to bring plot-elements over into the actual gameplay as well.

 

But yes, I guess that's one good thing about the NWN games. It's easy to customize them.

 

Eh, everyone enjoys different things. I personally dislike rushed or urgent quests... Fallout 1 made me leap out of my seat screaming NOOOOOOO... but I know a lot of other people like the adrenaline rush of sweat pouring into their eyes. I like the story element best, and want to savor the moments of seeing every inch of real estate and chat with every chattable character in the game. I didn't like watching my death thermometer or feeling panic that I might go to an area where I wouldn't be able to recharge myself. For me, it wasn't fun. *shrug*

[Gromnir]

"Edit: Oh, and if I want to rest then I'm gonna rest, dammit! I'm far too pretty to have bags under my cute little elven eyes."

 

ah, there is the problem. in the skein you can use suppress, but if you rest every few minutes you will have problems. Gromnir were willing to hold off on rest and alternatively we weren't too concerned to see our spirit meter drop down into the 50s and 40s for a while... the penalties weren't too harsh and is not like they is permanent.

 

even so, as the spirit meter is so easily managed, the mechanic becomes a somewhat tedious exercise rather than something that adds to gameplay. were only intriguing before Gromnir played game and had to deal with the reality.

 

would have been much more compelling w/o respawn of undead and if neutral spirits weren't so easy to find... 'course then you risk frustration. no frustration for Gromnir... were mildly annoyed as we "tromp back" as did Di in a seemingly mindless abasement before the alter o' gameplay necessity.

 

sidenote: getting 2 points to lawful for every use o' suppress IS wacked. every fat guy who manages to drive past a taco bell w/o ordering 12 tacos (and a diet coke) becomes significant more lawful? even if the argument is that suppress is lawful, the amount o' points is clearly disproportionate compared to other point awards offered in game.

 

and soul/spirit eating as anything other than evil? not get that pov. much as Gromnir views rape as a crime w/o any possible defense, so is an attack on spirit/soul. a violation o' the very essence o' a being? torture and rape is in similar category.

 

'course if you not believe that there is anything special 'bout soul/spirit, then we can see a different pov... but that ain't an option in this game as we gots devils bartering for souls and can see first hand that soul is real and immortal. no atheist option allowed.

 

in any event, Gromnir has run into some bugs and we got some concerns, but so far we has enjoyed. will give a more complete review in a few days, after have finished.

 

and okku looks like a porcine version o' okami... can't help but wonder if real reason okku looks so colorful is 'cause he ate okami.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Tigranes]

Di, On spirit meter:

 

To the argument that it is annoying and tedious - well, each to his own. I didn't, but if you found it annoying, then of course I accept that it was annoying for you, so that's a pity.

 

To the argument that

there was no way my lawful good character was going to run around sucking up souls... and then end up hooked like a junkie on heroine to boot!

 

But isn't that the whole point of the spirit meter? For example, maybe you are a lawful good Paladin, but the game's point is that being a lawful good Paladin doing good wherever he goes isn't easy as pie and it's not without consequences. If you have the spirit eater curse, you really have to struggle to try and be good and to resist the curse. Devouring is tempting because of all the cool loot as well. Isn't it interesting and good roleplay mechanic that you really have to think about and try to do good, and sometimes, there are no choices that just let you be 'good'? I looked at it that way so found it really interesting. It's a lot more realistic and a lot more interesting.

Edited October 30, 2007 by Tigranes

[~Di]

Di, On spirit meter:

 

To the argument that it is annoying and tedious - well, each to his own. I didn't, but if you found it annoying, then of course I accept that it was annoying for you, so that's a pity.

 

LOL, not really. Once I gave the Spirit Meter a lengthy and fair chance, I decided it had to die, then searched out a handy way to kill it. After that, the game was great fun!

 

But isn't that the whole point of the spirit meter? For example, maybe you are a lawful good Paladin, but the game's point is that being a lawful good Paladin doing good wherever he goes isn't easy as pie and it's not without consequences. If you have the spirit eater curse, you really have to struggle to try and be good and to resist the curse. Devouring is tempting because of all the cool loot as well. Isn't it interesting and good roleplay mechanic that you really have to think about and try to do good, and sometimes, there are no choices that just let you be 'good'? I looked at it that way so found it really interesting. It's a lot more realistic and a lot more interesting.

 

I looked at it as what Obsidian had always said it was, a way to keep people from resting after every battle, thus forcing them to soldier on without easy access to healing and combat spells. Cripes, as if having a control-freak husband isn't enough!! Now my character was heavily magic-dependent, but she could still swing a mean greatsword. I cannot imagine running this game, Spirit meter in tact, with a pure wizard. I can just imagine limping toward Gulkrash at the end of the skein and having nothing left to fight her with other than stabbing her in the nose with a tiny dagger. (Yes, yes, I know all you mega-gamers out there have already beaten MOTB solo, naked and with your legs tied together, but I'm not that advanced!) The Spirit Meter "design feature" just wasn't my cuppa, that's all.

 

Still, I really loved most everything else about MOTB, and can't wait to start my next campaign!

[Cantousent]

Aside from the lively debate regarding suppress in the non-spoiler thread, I agree with you on two points in particular, Gromnir.

 

First of all, while I consider the act of Suppression as inherently lawful, I think two points is excessive. I think the penalty should be one.

 

Second of all, I use eternal rest about half of the time.

 

I don't agree about the spirit eater mechanic. Keeping up spirit energy is a pain, but the bennies are actually better than the curse. That might be a design flaw, but it works the way it is now. Sure, it can be a pain, which it most certainly is at times, but it adds an extra dimension to the game as well. I think it has been generally well received, even though there are legitimate criticisms of the curse. Gorgon speaks quite passionately about the curse, as opposed to my "high brow hypotheticals."

 

Anyhow, there were more heated arguments about the Spirit Eater curse than anything else in the game. I certainly made my own waves in that regard, and I was the lowest seniority tester.

 

I'm glad they implemented the overall mechanic the way they did. As much as folks complain about it now, it would have been worse. The uproar is actually less than I predicted and generally complaining about the difficulty of the mechanic, also as I predicted.

 

However, Devour Spirit should get at least one chaos point. Devour Soul should get at least one evil point. Suppress should earn only one lawful point. Bestow Life Force is completely broken in that the PC may invoke the power with the party at full health and reap two points towards good. (I'm actually not sure about that one. I bugged it and I think they left it. If they fixed it, then a party at full health yields neither a shift to good nor a reduction in craving.) I guess, from my perspective, everything other than bestow life force should only shift one point. Bestow Life Force should only yield shifts if it actually drains spirit energy.

[Spider]

By the way, does anyone else feel that Eternal Rest is something of a cop out? It does exactly the same thing as Devour Spirit, but without the drawback. So not only can you chose not to eat spirits, but when you have to you can do it without increasing craving as well (as long as there are a few undead in the vicinity). But given that some people really hate the Spirit Eater mechanic, I suppose having it as it is makes sense.

[Zoma]

I always thought Eternal rest only works on undead (Zombies, mummies, vampires ect) while Devour spirit works on the glowy thingies that takes form of animals, men and elementals.

 

So in a way its quite different altogether, especially if we consider the alignment shifts involved as well.

[Starwars]

I can imagine how bloody hard it must be to implement a thing like this, and make it balanced. Then on top of that, make it managable enough for people who don't care for stuff like that.

I remember when I first read about this thing (which if I remember correctly was actually quite a long time before the game was released) I thought right away that this is something that is gonna piss people off. There are many who don't like such 'limitations' or clocks in their RPGs. Again, people have different opinions, but I've always wondered where the particular mindset of "I don't play RPGs to be stressed" came from. I know a DM (at least the ones I've had throughout my PnP career) would absolutely not let me wander around mindlessly if my character was inflicted by something like the spirit-eater curse, or if I had to save someone (say, like Imoen in BG2). I just don't know where this mindset came from, and why, in the RPG world.

 

That said, I don't think limits should be there just because. Some games require them, some do not. I believe I would've been more happy with BG2 for example if there had been some sort of rough consequence for farting around while Imoen is being kept prisoner. Not necessarily game over, but just a rough punishment of some sort. Something that really make you feel like "whoops, maybe I should've actually hurried up a bit". Oblivion is one of the latest example where it just feels silly that there is this invasion going on, and yet nothing *ever* happens. That said, in Oblivions case I'd rather seem them make the story interesting. *cough*

 

Overall I'm happy that Obsidian included it in MotB, and for me the game would've not been as fun without it. I want the story to carry over into the gameplay when applicable, and it makes all sense in the world in the case of MotB to have the curse actually affect you.

Edited October 31, 2007 by Starwars

[Tale]

By the way, does anyone else feel that Eternal Rest is something of a cop out? It does exactly the same thing as Devour Spirit, but without the drawback. So not only can you chose not to eat spirits, but when you have to you can do it without increasing craving as well (as long as there are a few undead in the vicinity). But given that some people really hate the Spirit Eater mechanic, I suppose having it as it is makes sense.

I don't think the the mechanic is meant to be difficult to a remotely competent player. Just keep people from resting too often. There are plenty of undead, Telthors, and elementals, plus Okku and Suppression for good players. There's plenty of Telthors, elementals, and humanoids, plus an AoE devour for evil players. Heck, with the AoE devour, you can manage high craving pretty well if you only rest at full spirit energy.

 

Once you get used to the system the only place I could see being hard would be the academy for a good character. And that's only conjecture.

Edited October 31, 2007 by Tale

[Gromnir]

By the way, does anyone else feel that Eternal Rest is something of a cop out? It does exactly the same thing as Devour Spirit, but without the drawback. So not only can you chose not to eat spirits, but when you have to you can do it without increasing craving as well (as long as there are a few undead in the vicinity). But given that some people really hate the Spirit Eater mechanic, I suppose having it as it is makes sense.

 

cop out? am not sure we would view as a cop out as suppression gets you to same end result... but less efficient. Gromnir can go outside town gate and get fat okami and do the rest & suppression cycle til we gets our spirit meter up to 100%. net gain after each use o' suppression following rest is minimal, but is still a gain. if our starting spirit meter is at 60% it is gonna take us some goodly number o' rest/suppress cycles to get to 100%. is mindless and and stoopid and for folks who has alignment concerns it can ruin game.

 

on the other hand, eternal rest gets us to 100% much faster and gives us a spirit essence... though we ain't used crafting yet, so am not sure how useful gaining a brilliant spirit essence for a void wraith really is. more important, for folks who not want excessive law points (would be willing to concede that 1 lawful point per every 2 or 3 suppress attempts would seem more appropriate than 2 for every 1,) eternal rest is a much less painful option than devour spirit.

 

for Gromnir, who not have alignment concerns, the only real difference 'tween suppress and eternal rest is that eternal rest is less mind numbing tedium. 1 void wraith released to eternal rest and Gromnir is good to go. that being said, if Gromnir were playing a druid we might feel Compelled to use eternal rest. 5 minutes o' rest/suppress can get us as many lawful points as is otherwise available through dialogues n' such following 10 hours o' gameplay. busted. the mechanic is busted in multiple ways.

 

spirit meter does encourage Gromnir to sleep infrequent, and if that is goal then it is a success. 'course the mechanic also encourages us to turn off caster ai and fully micromanage 'em, 'cause left to own devices that chick from the first star trek movie who managed to sneak into our party is gonna deplete all her good spells in first couple o' encounters... and blue boy will spam a group o' spirit rats with multiple uses o' storm o' vengeance if we let him. 'cause o' retarded ai Gromnir had to take away almost all are effect spells from our caster npcs, but with spirit meter we gotta keep even a closer watch on casters lest we be reduced to watching our casters gets to some big battle with no spells memorized save for burning hands or entangle.

 

so far our biggest concerns has been bug related. transitions between some areas tends to lead to ctd if kaji is summoned or if we has too many spell effects active. what is name of that little girl who invites you to her village o' evil ape carnivore shapeshifters? gots one o' those silly apostrophes in her name. regardless, we wished that we had killed her, 'cause now she is appearing right next to one o' the shadow portals on the shadow side... and we gots no more undead respawns in shadow plane. is no problem now, but am hopeful that it don't break our game later. any number o' spell and item attributes is stacking wrong. etc. 'course we broke our own rule and bought previous to patch release, so we got nobody to blame but Gromnir... and obsidian.

 

am enjoying, but the spirit meter is kinda half-baked and there is more than a few bugs we have had to face. spirit-meter does reduce resting... which is good and needed to keeps wizards from casting meteor swarms and maxed greater missile swarms at will, but am thinking that the mechanic is both too easy to exploit, and potentially too harsh for alignment restricted classes.

 

HA! Good Fun!