Obsidian dumbs "downer"

[Krookie]

How about a save system like the one in Dead Rising? You know, the one where you play for like 6 hours, and then you die once and you start over!

[MountainWest]

Besides, as much as we might hate to admit it, the save anywhere, reload anytime paradigm could use some rethinking.

I certainly don't hate to admit it. I think it's pretty weak. Allowing the player to only save so often or at certain locations emphasizes the importance of resource management over time. I think it adds an interesting gameplay element. That said, designers have to be very careful about how they space those save points throughout gameplay to avoid frustrating players.

 

Heh, I thought I was alone on this one. I've always disliked the "save everywhere"-philosophy. Sure, it's my choice to save - but it's a choice without a consequence, thus making it hard, if not impossible, to resist. At least it's borderline impossible to me.

 

But! There are games where I have no problem letting the F5-button rest (if there had been one): Survival Horror-games on the consoles. Yes, the consoles does something right. Upon completion of those game you get graded based upon how many times you've died, saved and on what difficulty level you've played. I'm sure a lot of hardcore players (I do count myself as one, if not by D&D-knowledge, so at least by the 20+ years I've been gaming) will say that this is a childish feature that doesn't add anything to the game in itself. Perhaps, but nevertheless, I like it. It gives me a reason - a very small one, but still enough - to play carefully. I like that sign at the end telling me that I've done something good. It makes the frustration (I'm looking at you damn insta-kill-knife-fight in Resident Evil 4) all worth it. It's also an easy thing to implement; just a couple of counters, a simple script and some static graphics.

 

As for not letting people save anywhere and at any time: Sure people will whine that they can't quit whenever they want "or must quit because their long lost aunt Hilda just knocked on the door" and jada jada. Alright, allow one "emergency-save" at every session, problem solved. The real problem I see is the number of bugs in the games today. I have no problem dying 10 times in a row in the "Resident Evil 4 knife fight ", then having to fight my way back from the last 'chapter-save'. It's my fault. It's a punishment for my lack of skills. But having to play through a difficult area twice because of a bug, that will make me frustrated.

 

Then again, ever since playing Ultima Lazarus I've wanted to go back to the time when there was no auto journal, so I guess my beliefs are somewhat dated.

 

On topic:

 

There were battles in NWN2 that a lot of people found challenging. Take Tholapsyx, for instance. Constant Gaw tuned that battle for a long time. A lot of players and testers had a hard time with that fight. I beat her in two rounds. It's pretty hard to tune high level fights so they are fun for both the hardcore player and nubz.

 

Here you basicly say that the battles were tuned for nubz, unless you see yourself as something beyond a hardcore player. I never got to Tholapsyx, so I can't comment on that particular fight, but I did play the game set on hardcore, and I did play up until the 'ruins of season'... or whatever they were called (it was during the castle building-part). Besides one or two fights, I found no challenge in NWN2. I never had to use buffs or any fancy tactics -things that would and should have made the combat even easier - it was just your typical realtime click&kill and some fireballs for good measure. And the rest-feeature made sure there was no Phyrrus-victories either.

 

Now, appearantly, the expansion will be even easier, though with the twist that there'll be a couple of optional 'hard' fights thrown in. But if those fights are optional, won't winning them make the main quest even easier? Won't the final boss - becuse we all know there will be one - be a walk in the park then? Or does the game scale? Or are the optional fights not giving out a reward? (The reward could of course be uncovering additional information about the story, something I would be more than fine with... if the story is interesting to begin with. Though, I doubt story could be seen as a reward nowadays).

 

Or is it more like in Final Fantasy where there's an optional superboss (Ultima) which is more or less the real 'end-boss' for hardcore gamers? Though, in FF there's probably more additional hardcore content (at least counted in hours) leading up to an even fight with the Ultima-weapon, than the 15 hours making out the entire Mask of the betrayer.

 

Bah, I'm rambling.

 

I don't know. Sometimes it feels like developers, in their quest of not 'frustrating' the players, forgets that overcoming obstacles is a big part of what makes gaming fun. Or at least made it fun back in the days when gamers where the target of games.

 

Or perhaps I'm just an idiot who doesn't understand that killing stuff with powerful stuff is what gaming is all about.

Edited May 30, 2007 by MountainWest

[Cantousent]

But then again I've long since accepted the fact that CRPGs were more interactive books than tactical combat simulators.

 

It's not that they're interactive books. It's that they're bad interactive books.

 

I wouldn't mind battles serving as pathways to the plot points if the plot points didn't suck.

[mr insomniac]

I've got no problems with being able to save anywhere. It's kept me from being late for work at least a few times, because I dislike even more having to backtrack to an earlier save for reasons that aren't caused by playing the game, like work.

[Cantousent]

Bah, I'm rambling.

 

Not really. I'd call it more ranting than rambling. Maybe a rambling rant.

 

It just seems to me that we've got out priorities out of whack. What is the deal breaker for a game? Is it the save scheme? Is it insta-death? What combination of factors discourages you from buying or even playing a title?

 

As far as story goes, it's one of the areas that a CRPG can surpass an MMORPG. If the story isn't rewarding, then that's one less opportunity for a CRPG to outshine an MMORPG. Yes, I'd like to see some tough battles, but I don't think the game should cater to folks who want bragging rights for finishing the game with a one-eyed half-orc Sorceror who has 5s in every attribute except charisma, which he keeps at 11 the entire game.

[Fionavar]

Not to paraphrase, but Cant's observations resonate for me in that in a closed media (by this I mean where much of the imagination is supplemented in a way opposed to a PnP experience) plot serves to either detract or enrich a cRPG. A good game, whether BG, System Shock or HL, is driven - in my experience - by choices that serve to advance plot. If balanced well enough, certain aspects of PnP can be gleefully sacrificed for the sake of game play. But that is my experience and why I continue to find the spectrum of titles such as BG, SS 2 and DX, quintessential balancing acts that have worked well in a medium that removes human interaction that one finds within an old die-based game that draws into the wee hours of the morn upon the Roost

[MountainWest]

Bah, I'm rambling.

 

Not really. I'd call it more ranting than rambling. Maybe a rambling rant.

 

It just seems to me that we've got out priorities out of whack. What is the deal breaker for a game? Is it the save scheme? Is it insta-death? What combination of factors discourages you from buying or even playing a title?

 

The over-all non-challenge, combined with the (well written) run-of-the-mill story in NWN2, has made me question wheter I should get Mask of the betrayer or not. I'm not being challenged, neither physically nor mentally, thus I'm not having fun. I now know that the combat will be even easier in Mask of the betrayer, thus the story is all-important. Sure, if the story is anything like PsT's I'll get the game at release day.

 

As far as story goes, it's one of the areas that a CRPG can surpass an MMORPG. If the story isn't rewarding, then that's one less opportunity for a CRPG to outshine an MMORPG. Yes, I'd like to see some tough battles, but I don't think the game should cater to folks who want bragging rights for finishing the game with a one-eyed half-orc Sorceror who has 5s in every attribute except charisma, which he keeps at 11 the entire game.

 

It's not about bragging rights. Bragging about your accomplishments in video games, at least among my friends, would result in you getting laughed at/given a stare like "Aren't you a bit too old to be playing video games?". No, my cRPG-hobby is a well kept secret. It's about that feeling of "I did it". Kinda like when you're warming up for a soccer-game, shooting at an empty goal - you go for the cross, not just putting the ball in the middle of the goal. Both have the same result - the ball is in the net - but succeding with the first gives you a good feeling, the latter does not.

[Pop]

So how exactly would you be physically challenged by a computer game?

[MountainWest]

So how exactly would you be physically challenged by a computer game?

 

I usually use my hands, eyes and reflexes when I play an FPS. How do you do it?

Edited May 30, 2007 by MountainWest

[Andrew]

That said, designers have to be very careful about how they space those save points throughout gameplay to avoid frustrating players.

 

Nothing said frustrating like the Ice Cave in the original Final Fantasy. Hoo boy! I must have tried getting through that sucker a zillion times, what with no fancy "save state" available, and houses running 3000 gp each.

[kirottu]

I've got no problems with being able to save anywhere. It's kept me from being late for work at least a few times, because I dislike even more having to backtrack to an earlier save for reasons that aren't caused by playing the game, like work.

 

I agree. Saving the game when you need to save is far better than saving points. It really irks me if I have to re-play some parts all over again just because there wasn

[LadyCrimson]

Re: save points - I kind of like the way Titan Quest uses 'resurrection fountains' - basically fairly frequent and re-activateable save points that dictate where you'll show up in the game next time you fire it up. I rather like it and it's fairly flexible. If you give up on a big battle for the day, you close the game, come back the next day and just have to retravel a small portion of an area to get back to the boss again. In other words, it's not frustrating to the more casual player but not as convienent as 'I can save/restart the game anywhere anytime.'

 

I don't know if it's a method that could be adapted to the more tradtional RPG, tho.

 

PS - I like TQ's system despite being an addicted 'save at anytime' type of player.

Edited May 30, 2007 by LadyCrimson

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

I always liked the old saving at the inn approach.

[Hurlshort]

For those of us with small children and difficult schedules, a flexible save system isn't just a preference, it's a necessity.

 

Roshan = MountainWest?

[MountainWest]

For those of us with small children and difficult schedules, a flexible save system isn't just a preference, it's a necessity.

 

Roshan = MountainWest?

 

Roshan = MountainWest = J.E. Sawyer?

 

Hardly.

 

I don't like unlimited saving, but I can understand why some people do. And really, I don't see what your problem with my post is. My first suggestion was to count the number of saves and rewarding the players who don't save at every turn with a simple acknowledgement at the end of the game - it won't affect you. My second suggestion was to implement a one-time "emergency save" at every session, thus giving players who play before they go to work, or have children like yourself, a chance to save at any time. A third suggestion would be to make it a choice at the beginning of the game, just like easy/normal/hard is.

 

Actually, your criticism is egotistical and unwarranted. "I have children so the game must let me save at any time. MountainWest = idiot?" - instead of writing that piece of useless text you could have given a suggestion on how to solve the problem so that we both could enjoy the same game to the fullest. Something I at least tried to do.

 

But it's easier to just say no, eh? Not having to think.

Edited May 30, 2007 by MountainWest

[Tale]

Or maybe we've had alts around here and he just thought you were the OP's alt and was not calling you an idiot. But hey, it's easier to think everyone is against you.

[Hurlshort]

For those of us with small children and difficult schedules, a flexible save system isn't just a preference, it's a necessity.

 

Roshan = MountainWest?

 

Roshan = MountainWest = J.E. Sawyer?

 

Hardly.

 

I don't like unlimited saving, but I can understand why some people do. And really, I don't see what your problem with my post is. My first suggestion was to count the number of saves and rewarding the players who don't save at every turn with a simple acknowledgement at the end of the game - it won't affect you. My second suggestion was to implement a one-time "emergency save" at every session, thus giving players who play before they go to work, or have children like yourself, a chance to save at any time. A third suggestion would be to make it a choice at the beginning of the game, just like easy/normal/hard is.

 

Actually, your criticism is egotistical and unwarranted. "I have children so the game must let me save at any time. MountainWest = idiot?" - instead of writing that piece of useless text you could have given a suggestion on how to solve the problem so that we both could enjoy the same game to the fullest. Something I at least tried to do.

 

But it's easier to just say no, eh? Not having to think.

 

Wow, to be honest, I didn't type a full explanation because I was busy feeding said child and it's hard to type while doing so. You seem to be fairly new to the boards and you've thrown yourself right in the middle of an argumentative thread, so I don't think it's a stretch to question whether you are an alt of another poster. There are a lot of folks who use alts here...

 

Anyways, I really didn't attack any of your suggestions, I simply stated why it's so important for me to have a flexible save system. I'm a big fan of a hardcore option in games, but I understand that a developer doesn't want to spend too many resources on an option that not enough paying customers use.

 

So...are you implying that roshan is an idiot? Because I think that's a bit uncalled for. He's more of an evil mastermind.

[MountainWest]

Or maybe we've had alts around here and he just thought you were the OP's alt and was not calling you an idiot. But hey, it's easier to think everyone is against you.

 

EDIT: Saw your post now, Hurlshot. I don't know who Roshan is. I guess I've been reading the Codex for too long, thus becoming used to everything being more or less an attack. I'll let my post beneath stand, as I dislike erasing stuff once it's posted - you never know if someone's already started reading it. But take it with a grain of salt. /EDIT

 

This is my last post defending myself against one-liners.

 

Yes, I'm sure he just meant nice things by first disagreeing with me - not adressing any of my suggestions - and then putting an equality symbol between me and someone I'm sure isn't well liked. My fail safe internet psychology evaluation tells me: 1) He didn't read my post beyond that I didn't like unlimited saving. 2) He saw that I didn't enjoy NWN2, a game he likes. 3) He decided not only to disagree with me, but also making an unnecessary MW = Roshan connection. Why I don't know.

 

No, I shouldn't have answered his post.

 

Just to make it clear for people who feels offended by me not liking NWN2. No, I'm not a fan of Obsidian. Not yet. But I am a 'fan' of some of the people working for Obsidian, like Sawyer and MCA. People who always express their opinions in a way I respect, even in the cases when if I don't agree with them (Bethesda-Todd being their antithesis). I wouldn't be here if I didn't know there's talant to make an RPG I'd really like. As a matter of fact MCA already has: PsT. I'm also eagerly anticipating Sawyers 'The Black Hound'.

Edited May 30, 2007 by MountainWest

[metadigital]

I've got no problems with being able to save anywhere. It's kept me from being late for work at least a few times, because I dislike even more having to backtrack to an earlier save for reasons that aren't caused by playing the game, like work.

 

I agree. Saving the game when you need to save is far better than saving points. It really irks me if I have to re-play some parts all over again just because there wasn

[Hurlshort]

Or maybe we've had alts around here and he just thought you were the OP's alt and was not calling you an idiot. But hey, it's easier to think everyone is against you.

 

EDIT: Saw your post now, Hurlshot. I don't know who Roshan is. I guess I've been reading the Codex for too long, thus becoming used to everything being more or less an attack. I'll let my post beneath stand, as I dislike erasing stuff once it's posted - you never know if someone's already started reading it. But take it with a grain of salt. /EDIT

 

This is my last post defending myself against one-liners.

 

Yes, I'm sure he just meant nice things by first disagreeing with me - not adressing any of my suggestions - and then putting an equality symbol between me and someone I'm sure isn't well liked. My fail safe internet psychology evaluation tells me: 1) He didn't read my post beyond that I didn't like unlimited saving. 2) He saw that I didn't enjoy NWN2, a game he likes. 3) He decided not only to disagree with me, but also making an unnecessary MW = Roshan connection. Why I don't know.

 

 

 

I am taking this with a grain of salt, but I'm still unsure how or where I disagreed with you. My one liner was "For those of us with small children and difficult schedules, a flexible save system isn't just a preference, it's a necessity." That's hardly argumentative, it's simply a statement about life, and it was made to support the folks who mentioned needing to leave quickly for work.

[roshan]

Considering that most players are going to reload in a CRPG to ensure that no one dies, I'm not convinced that "for real" death is something worth modeling in most CRPGs.

 

I do not see what is wrong with people reloading if one of their characters has died in a battle. Winning a hard battle with everyone still standing is obviously more difficult than winning with half of your party dead. Keeping everyone alive - if a player decides to make it his/her goal - becomes a part of the challenge and requires additional skill from the player.

 

Players reload when they have failed to achieve their objectives. Through reloading players are able to try new strategies and develop their skills to succeed at their goal. If you eliminate reloading, you eliminate the possibility of failure. If you create a game where there is no chance of failure, you end up with a "dumb" game like NWN2 which requires absolutely nothing from players in terms of mental or physical capability.

[Atreides]

I think there'd be more tension if safe resting areas (inns, hospitable allies etc) were more rationed. That's a little different from rationed saves.

[Rob McGinnis]

Wow, what a thread.

 

First, I'll just say that to judge MoTB by a single interview is pretty silly. As for linearity, MoTB is much more free-ranging than NWN2. Outdoor areas are pretty much free-roving. I'd like to see a link to the article you reference, Roshan. Every article I have read about the expansion talks about MoTB being less linear.

 

Most of the criticisms in this thread are about personal preference, and they all differ in degrees. Would I like to see a more meaningful death system? On hardcore mode, yes. Would I like to see combat much more difficult? *shrug* I'm not a min-maxer or a munchkin player. In a CRPG I don't much care about the combat personally. To me, it's about the story and the characters. Combat is just a small part of the story, even if it's a major part of the design. I can see where some people would prefer to have combat be more difficult, though. Do I think resting makes the game easy? Yes. I just rest in inns and maybe once in a dungeon.

 

One of the things I love about the NWN series is that the majority of it's value comes from the community and the modules and content they create. I know that if there's something I don't like about the OC, there will probably be a mod out there to change that aspect of it. I also know there will be some great adventures made by community members that are more to my taste.

[MountainWest]

Or maybe we've had alts around here and he just thought you were the OP's alt and was not calling you an idiot. But hey, it's easier to think everyone is against you.

 

EDIT: Saw your post now, Hurlshot. I don't know who Roshan is. I guess I've been reading the Codex for too long, thus becoming used to everything being more or less an attack. I'll let my post beneath stand, as I dislike erasing stuff once it's posted - you never know if someone's already started reading it. But take it with a grain of salt. /EDIT

 

This is my last post defending myself against one-liners.

 

Yes, I'm sure he just meant nice things by first disagreeing with me - not adressing any of my suggestions - and then putting an equality symbol between me and someone I'm sure isn't well liked. My fail safe internet psychology evaluation tells me: 1) He didn't read my post beyond that I didn't like unlimited saving. 2) He saw that I didn't enjoy NWN2, a game he likes. 3) He decided not only to disagree with me, but also making an unnecessary MW = Roshan connection. Why I don't know.

 

 

 

I am taking this with a grain of salt, but I'm still unsure how or where I disagreed with you. My one liner was "For those of us with small children and difficult schedules, a flexible save system isn't just a preference, it's a necessity." That's hardly argumentative, it's simply a statement about life, and it was made to support the folks who mentioned needing to leave quickly for work.

 

The one-liners I was refering to was the one I quoted and the one where someone wondered how one could possibly be physically challenged while playing a video-game. I guess I might have included your "MW = Roshan" since, at the time, I thought that Roshan was a less liked member on the boards.

 

And for disagreeing:

 

I wrote:

Heh, I thought I was alone on this one. I've always disliked the "save everywhere"-philosophy. Sure, it's my choice to save - but it's a choice without a consequence, thus making it hard, if not impossible, to resist. At least it's borderline impossible to me. BLAHBLAHBLAH

 

You wrote:

For those of us with small children and difficult schedules, a flexible save system isn't just a preference, it's a necessity.

 

Roshan = MountainWest?

 

I didn't want unlimited saving. You wanted unlimited saving for whatever reason. If that's not a disagrement, then I'm not sure what is. Had you not included "MW = Roshan", then you could've said that your post had nothing to do with my post and furthermore that your line wasn't a disagreement with what I wrote. But you did add the second line. So: You write MW = Roshan, you write what you want - which is the opposite of what I want - and then you want me to think that you don't disagree with me?

 

So, what was the meaning of of the "MW = Roshan"-line? An out of the blue honest question like "Dear fellow board members, thost thee believe MountainWest to be the same gentleman as Roshan? I be mighty interested to know." And at whom was the question directed? You must have known I would read it. What did you expect? That I would say "Yes, I am Roshan"/"No, I am not Roshan", and then be done with it, even though your previous line was seemingly in contradiction with what I wanted?

 

don't understand why Roshan hangs out on this board. He's started numerous negative topics about NWN2 and he gets the same reaction every time. No one is saying NWN2 is the holy grail of gaming, but most people here are fans of Obsidian. Roshan doesn't offer any constructive criticism, he just whines and whines. Seriously, why bother? I don't go hang out on a forum for poodles and constantly complain how silly they look. Stop wasting your time.

 

?

Edited May 30, 2007 by MountainWest

[Sand]

I think that is mostly my fault, Mono-Directional Rocky Hill. I have had so many alts on this forum, then others began to copy me, and well... Things just snowballed from there.

Edited May 30, 2007 by Sand