Does Obsidian intend to make an RPG like FO?

[Wistrik]

Ultima IV will always be my favorite. Whether you became the hero or not was up to you (though you had to in order to 'complete' the game), and you could take your time getting there while exploring the whole of the continent. Try doing that in most of today's games.

[Slowtrain]

Choices that don't effectively change the resulting narrative are meaningless.

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That sounds prewtty absolute, josh.

 

There are degrees of choices. Large ones that that might change the overall story-arc complete and then smaller ones like which skill you choose for your pc. It would be pretty difficult to put a lot of large choices in a crpg withotu spoending years in development witha team of thousands, but you can put in a lot of little choices. And while little choices may be meaingingless in the context of how the story plays out, they can p[rovide a lot of fun and involvement with the polayer and their character.

[Pop]

Judging from JE Sawyer's comments, if he had been lead designer from the get-go NWN2 would have been different and more akin to a Fallout style in some ways. I think it's a given that the Obsidian guys want to make a game like Fallout 2.

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If they make an expansion for NWN2 hopefully they will implement this style of game play. NO EXCUSES.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm pretty sure Sawyer's made it clear that he's not going to be involved with any official expansion effort.

 

As for the "stupid hero plot" thing, it's difficult to make a game in which the, uh, protagonist is not the hero. You can make some anti-heroes, but generally the PC is supposed to defeat the bad guy at the end. Fallout made it possible to submit to the Master, but the "correct" canon ending was destroying him. I haven't seen many games in which the PC is a straight antagonist. I can't think of any off the top of my head.

 

As for Vampire, it's a noir universe, there are no heroes.

Edited December 13, 2006 by Pop

[Pidesco]

Fallout doesn't have that much text.  Anyway, with dvds and such you can do voice work for much of the dialogue with the addtional space.  Ideally, I think games should be moving toward a text free environment when dealign with realtime npc interaction.  We don't walk around our world reading what we have to see to all the people we encounter on a daily basis.

 

I don't think Fallout has too much text. However, every casual PC gamer I know (and many hardcore gamers too) thinks it has too much text. Not to mention that they also think RPGs in general are too time consuming.

[Pidesco]

The only "recent" RPG I can think of that didn't have a "stupid hero plot" was Torment.

And Arcanum, Bloodlines, ect...

 

Okay, I can agree with Bloodlines, but definitely not with Arcanum.

[Slowtrain]

I don't think Fallout has too much text. However, every casual PC gamer I know (and many hardcore gamers too) thinks it has too much text. Not to mention that they also think RPGs in general are too time consuming.

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Yet millions of people spend hundres of hours mindlessly WoWing. People will play what they find attractive and fun. I'm not saying that by defintion FO-type games are attractive and fun, but if you made a FO-type game that was attractive and fun, then there is as much of a chance of people playing it as anything else.

 

People learn how to do complex things every day. Learning the ins and outs of a crpg, just isn't that complicated enough to be a barrier in and of itself.

[Hurlshort]

The only "recent" RPG I can think of that didn't have a "stupid hero plot" was Torment.

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And Arcanum, Bloodlines, ect...

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Uh, weren't you the Chosen one in Arcanum? And didn't a hobbit...err...gnome give you a ring to start your adventure?

 

I loved Arcanum, but it wasn't exactly an original storyline, at least to start. The unique gameworld was the real selling point.

 

And Torment had a hero with amnesia. I've seen that done soooo many times.

[Jorian Drake]

The only "recent" RPG I can think of that didn't have a "stupid hero plot" was Torment.

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And Arcanum, Bloodlines, ect...

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Uh, weren't you the Chosen one in Arcanum? And didn't a hobbit...err...gnome give you a ring to start your adventure?

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No, it was purely coincidence your char was there, he wasn't any kind of 'chosen' one, and you didn't have to do the gnomes bidding at all.

[Pidesco]

But he wasn't a hero. He was just a guy with amnesia.

[Slowtrain]

As regards stupid hero plots, I would say that you have to careful tampering with your archetypes. Stupid hero plots have nurtured the creative minds of humanity for thousands of years. I think the point is that hero plots don't have to be stupid or trite or empty. But people like being heros. I'd rather be a hero than a rubbish collector.

[Sargallath Abraxium]

Not to mention that they also think RPGs in general are too time consuming.

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...that right there be what's wrong wit' the gamin' community today an' where the "dumbed-down" effect comes inta play...noone wants ta play a well written, well designed 40+ hour cRPG anymmores...theys want gore, eye candy, an' li'l else matters...more's the pity...a FO or PS:T style game will'na sell, an' that truly be a sad thing... :'(

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

[Pop]

And Torment had a hero with amnesia.  I've seen that done soooo many times.

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Heh, it's not original by any means, but it's maddeningly effective, especially in explaining the contradiction of the player running a character in a way that doesn't jibe with the character's backstory. You get amnesia, become a different person, yadda yadda.

Edited December 13, 2006 by Pop

[Slowtrain]

Not to mention that they also think RPGs in general are too time consuming.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

...that right there be what's wrong wit' the gamin' community today an' where the "dumbed-down" effect comes inta play...noone wants ta play a well written, well designed 40+ hour cRPG anymmores...theys want gore, eye candy, an' li'l else matters...more's the pity...a FO or PS:T style game will'na sell, an' that truly be a sad thing... :'(

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

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Fallout had more gore than you could shake a stick at, Sargy. Plus it was generally rude and offensive in places. What more could you ask for?

[Pidesco]

Not to mention that they also think RPGs in general are too time consuming.

 

 

...that right there be what's wrong wit' the gamin' community today an' where the "dumbed-down" effect comes inta play...noone wants ta play a well written, well designed 40+ hour cRPG anymmores...theys want gore, eye candy, an' li'l else matters...more's the pity...a FO or PS:T style game will'na sell, an' that truly be a sad thing... :'(

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

 

There are also a lot of people that just don't have the time for 40+ hour cRPG.

[Slowtrain]

Not to mention that they also think RPGs in general are too time consuming.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

...that right there be what's wrong wit' the gamin' community today an' where the "dumbed-down" effect comes inta play...noone wants ta play a well written, well designed 40+ hour cRPG anymmores...theys want gore, eye candy, an' li'l else matters...more's the pity...a FO or PS:T style game will'na sell, an' that truly be a sad thing... :'(

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

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There are also a lot of people that just don't have the time for 40+ hour cRPG.

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But there are obviosuly a lot of people who do.

 

Nothing is going to sell to everyone.

[Kelverin]

"Nothing is going to sell to everyone."

 

Which of course explains the popularity of expansions/sequels and discourages company's from making something new and different.

Edited December 13, 2006 by Kelverin

[Slowtrain]

"Nothing is going to sell to everyone."

 

Which of course explains the popularity of expansions/sequels and discourages company's from making something new and different.

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Well, expansions and sequels are an obvious and generally effective way to build on the familiarity of a name. But sequels and expansions fail all the time if they happen to suck. Nothing flattens response like bad word of mouth.

[Wistrik]

I deliberately look for long games because I hate paying for a game I can beat over the weekend, like most FPS games. CRPGs tend to be longer, but that's not a guarantee. Adventure games have slowly become more interesting to me because they can take several days to complete and are at least as much fun. They also provide more of an intellectual challenge than games based mostly on mindless combat.

[Pidesco]

Note that I'm not saying that a Fallout style game could never be successful nowadays, I'm just saying that it wouldn't be a big hit among the mainstream crowd.

 

Fallout was successful because it managed to appeal to a certain market niche, not because it sold bundles to the mainstream crowd.

[Jorian Drake]

I deliberately look for long games because I hate paying for a game I can beat over the weekend, like most FPS games. CRPGs tend to be longer, but that's not a guarantee. Adventure games have slowly become more interesting to me because they can take several days to complete and are at least as much fun. They also provide more of an intellectual challenge than games based mostly on mindless combat.

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As I always say: 'Adventure' and 'RPG' genres are together what real pnp RPG spirit is about

[Gromnir]

I can't speak for the whole of Obsidian, but I would like to see us making more "open" games: open worlds with loose storylines featuring very few "critical path" points and characters.  That said, I also want to make games where the choices a player makes are meaningful.  Choices that don't effectively change the resulting narrative are meaningless.

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tangential and optional side quests makes people feels like they is getting non-linear. is mostly smoke n' mirrors, but is a nice feature.

 

meaningful choices that alter the narrative is complete other issue. is difficult to writes good story with multiple genuine bifurcations... choose-your-own-adventure books were popular in the early 80s, but they never really caught on... in part 'cause the narrative style is self-defeating, and also 'cause they rarely coulds finds a competent writer to works in that way.

 

"When Janice stepped into the breach and held off the horde so that the Prince could escape, it was symbolic of..."

 

"But Janice didn't hold off the horde in My story," says a fan of bifurcating stories. "In my game, Janice was stabbed in the back by Wil Of Sot, my morally challenged character."

 

you wants deep and compelling story and characters AND many bifurcations resulting from meaningful choices. good luck.

 

give a couple bifurcations of critical path and lots of optional and tangential side quests that can be having their own bifurcations as well. can't have too many bifurcations of critical path w/o ending up with a mess.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[J.E. Sawyer]

meaningful choices that alter the narrative is complete other issue.  is difficult to writes good story with multiple genuine bifurcations... choose-your-own-adventure books were popular in the early 80s, but they never really caught on... in part 'cause the narrative style is self-defeating, and also 'cause they rarely coulds finds a competent writer to works in that way.

Game stories don't need to be tangled masses of interconnected plotlines that can diverge in a billion directions. Stand-alone plots, or plots with a small number of references to other parts of the game, can work just fine. Also, if companions are optional and their reactions based on stimuli that can be found in lots of different places all over the game setting, they can become their own self-contained plots.

 

Fallout is a great example of how to "do" a non-linear story. The main plot is pretty basic and has very few plot critical components. Individual places along the way are non-critical to that plot, but they can fit into it just fine. You can skip Shady Sands or the Hub if you really want to, or you can do them "out of order" without damaging the main plot.

 

So I don't really think "many bifurcations" of a single plot are necessary. Having a few in each plotline is really enough.

[Kelverin]

"But sequels and expansions fail all the time if they happen to suck. Nothing flattens response like bad word of mouth."

 

Now hold on there. The only RPG sequel or expansion I have played that sucked would be Pool of Radiance 2.

 

BG2>BG (Both great games)

NWN2>NWN

NWN expansions>NWN

FO=FO2

IWD>IWD2 (IWD2 was still a good game, not great but good)

[Tigranes]

Dungeon Siege => Dungeon Siege 2

 

Oh wait.... "

 

As Sawyer said, the capabilities for nonlinearity as we currently understand is dependent on the style and direction of the plot - whether it is designed to build a universe that accommodates such 'nonlinearity'. The most blatant (and worst) example is NWN1OC, where you eventually had to get 4 sticks of power to progress, but you could visit each area however you wanted. The cost of this was, of course, that each of those 4 sticks and 4 areas had no relations to each other (indeed, they were independent dungeons for the most part) - so it's all about having that scope for nonlinearity in the back of the mind from the very start, then designing the plot that way.

 

I really think Obsidian should at some point recycle BG2's "Get 20,000 Gold": firstly it makes money a little more realistic and integrated into the gameworld, whereas usually it's removed and the adventurers work on a totally different monetary scale to the rest of the world; secondly, it provided a reasonable link to the main story without hamstringing any nonlinearity, and thirdly, it is much better than the "we just have to wait until X happens" thing.

 

I'm sure there are other, better ideas out there.

[J.E. Sawyer]

To be honest, I think it's enough to keep the player relatively in the dark about their surroundings. You can point them in the "best" way to go (which is what Fallout did) and make exploration risky through the use of hazards and a general lack of knowledge about where they are going. It works out pretty well. For example, it's possible that someone could stumble out of Vault 13 and click randomly on the map until they found Necropolis, but it's pretty damned improbable.