NWN2 bashed and thrashed

[Tigranes]

Take the sales figures of NWN.

 

Then, take the amount of people who play multiplayer.

 

Then, take the amount of people who pirate the game, and thus only play single player.

 

Winzor'd. NWN1 had a massive multiplayer fanbase. However, its single-player fanbase was way, way bigger in proportion. Certainly over half either only played SP, or thought it more important than MP. Biowarians have commented on this fact again and again. MP, of course, is more important than its population figures warrant because it really contributes to community and longevity, but that's neither here nor there.

 

I dont know, I went off to work for a couple of hours and now the discussion is now about SP/MP? The original point that there was a shootstorm for NWN and both of its expansions stands. There was uproar about NWN; there was uproar about SOU; there was uproar about HOTu; there was uproar about the first of the premier modules; there was uproar about OE taking over NWN2; there was also uproar about Pong because they didnt include different coloured freakin balls.

 

If you want concrete evidence, last year I did a statistical survey of Obsidian and found that the board is mainly sustained by only 40-50 regulars who post on average more than four or five times a week; everyone else just floats in, and floats out. While Bioware forums will be different, this only lends to the fact that forum demographics most certainly cannot be trusted.

Edited November 13, 2006 by Tigranes

[alanschu]

Take the sales figures of NWN.

 

Then, take the amount of people who play multiplayer.

 

Then, take the amount of people who pirate the game, and thus only play single player.

 

Winzor'd.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Heh, I didn't even consider people that pirated the game. Though I suspect the game companies don't care as much about them.

[Tigranes]

Nope, but I dont know what you guys are arguing about anymore, I just thought I'd pitch in with the logical point.

 

Edited post, btw.

[Tigranes]

I have been cruelly ignored. :'(

 

I shall now run around farting uncontrollably.

[17243_1556103691]

If you want concrete evidence, last year I did a statistical survey of Obsidian and found that the board is mainly sustained by only 40-50 regulars who post on average more than four or five times a week; everyone else just floats in, and floats out. While Bioware forums will be different, this only lends to the fact that forum demographics most certainly cannot be trusted.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Well unless the thousands that have complained are really just 40 or 50 regulars that registered 20-40 games each, that really doesnt apply to times where infuriated buyers lash out in protest immediately after game release. Game release time changes everything. The registered users spiked dramatically post NWN2 drop.

[17243_1556103691]

You seem to want NWN2 to be all for you

 

I made no such statement. In fact, I don't even know what you are talking about here.

 

 

while i'm speaking from the experience that i've encountered at least a few thousand new faces over a 4 year span of people that simply grew tired of not playing with other people and explicitly stated that

 

Wow. A few thousand. Out of the millions of copies of the game sold.

 

 

It's the human condition. It's just how people are.

 

It is? Based on what?

 

 

I don't discredit market research entirely but I know what i saw in the online community in its growth over time and that tells a different story.

 

No it doesn't. All your story said was a few thousand (assuming you're even remotely correct in your estimate of a few thousand). Neverwinter Nights is a game that has sold million. It's one of the better selling games of all time.

 

 

Hell even the guy at Fry's electronics said he had finally gotten broadband and couldn;t wait to play NWN2 online after playing NWN1 offline for so many years (which points to 4. being a factor to at least some degree).

 

Well, there's ONE person. Anecdotal evidence doesn't mean anything. And unfortunately, it leads people to 'commonsense' conclusions. (for the record, using common sense in any sort of empirical analysis trying to describe something will literally get you laughed at in any academic circle. It's pretty much useless, because it is frequently wrong).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You have yet to substantiate that NWN2 won't have a great deal more online players than not.

 

1.You won't concede that times have changed, and can't reasonably refute any of my four points outside of baseless conjecture.

 

2. I can only encounter so many people considering I only frequented a handful of servers.

 

3. Deductive reasoning. When I encounter a few thousand that say they grew tired of offline play on maybe five of hundreds of servers, well..you get the point.

 

4. Human Condition based on what? .. lol - People need companionship, people need acknowledgment, people need to interact with others. These are fundamental aspirations of man. Psychologically gamers may differ in that many need to feed their narcissism and show everyone how powerful they are - in which case they would go online to prove something to themselves or someone else.

 

5. See 3.

 

6. We're talking about the gaming community, a fickle and shifting demographic where predicting the outcome of any new success based on "empirical analysis" of any old data is just as fruitless as your intent to prove wrong something that has yet to generate any signifcant new statistics. I simply offfered an example, if you mean to say that scneario won't be duplicated globally to any substantial degree I don't think you lend enough credence to deductive reasoning.

[Deraldin]

All right. Which one of you mods has been screwing with the order of the posts in this thread. Fess up. I know you are out there somewhere. <_<

[Tigranes]

 

ST, point is that message boards are never going to be more accurate a judge of fan responses than the words of the developers themselves.

 

Srsly, move on. If you want complaints that actually hurt sales, go look at the Gothic 3 forum.

[Pidesco]

I went to sleep at around page 4, and now I'm back, and it's page 8.

 

Anyway, several pages ago I stated that NWN's combat sucked, and Volo refuted my statement by saying it was the same as NWN2's. First of all, it isn't the same, as here we control a 4 people party, while in the first game we controlled only one character. Needless to say this makes all the difference in terms of tactical depth. There's only so much we can do with one character.

 

Second of all I don't think NWN2's combat is all that great as it is, sice to me it feels a little bit too easy. But of course, the last RPG I found even mildly challenging was IWD2, so what do I know.

 

I did however enjoy the combat in the mountains against the orcs, more that the combat in any part of NWN.

[17243_1556103691]

 

ST, point is that message boards are never going to be more accurate a judge of fan responses than the words of the developers themselves.

 

Srsly, move on. If you want complaints that actually hurt sales, go look at the Gothic 3 forum.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

? What are you even talking about? I'm not interested in "complaints that hurt sales" or Gothic 3. I'm here to discuss improving my beloved NWN franchise. I won't be moving on either.

[Volourn]

"Neverwinter Nights is a game that has sold million. It's one of the better selling games of all time."

 

I doubt the latter statement is true. Unless your defintion of 'better selling games of all time' is different than kost.

 

Do you think NWN is in the top 5? Top 10? Top 25? Top 50? Top 100? Top 1000?

 

 

"First of all, it isn't the same, as here we control a 4 people party, while in the first game we controlled only one character. Needless to say this makes all the difference in terms of tactical depth. There's only so much we can do with one character."

 

No. There is no more tatical depth. Allowing players to control PCs doesn't add more depth; just means you are doing more of the same. On top of that, fighters in NWN2 have less combat options than in NWN1. They can no longer make called shots for example. BOOO!!!

 

P.S. The orcs were boringly easy. Cruised right through them...

Edited November 13, 2006 by Volourn

[alanschu]

You have yet to substantiate that NWN2 won't have a great deal more online players than not

 

Neither have you. You're just guessing. I'm basing my statements on the trends that have existed, and continue to exist, in gaming.

 

 

1.You won't concede that times have changed, and can't reasonably refute any of my four points outside of baseless conjecture.

 

Because your points are baseless conjecture. They are what you THINK is happening.

 

 

2. I can only encounter so many people considering I only frequented a handful of servers.

 

But you had no problems counting the few thousand of them that you have just recently met....

 

 

3. Deductive reasoning. When I encounter a few thousand that say they grew tired of offline play on maybe five of hundreds of servers, well..you get the point.

 

I'm curious, how on Earth do you plan on encountering people that don't play the game online to begin with? (and it's not deductive reasoning at all, because you cannot verify whether or not your premises are actually truth)

 

 

4. Human Condition based on what? .. lol - People need companionship, people need acknowledgment, people need to interact with others. These are fundamental aspirations of man. Psychologically gamers may differ in that many need to feed their narcissism and show everyone how powerful they are - in which case they would go online to prove something to themselves or someone else.

 

But people don't need to play video games to experience companionship, acknowledgement, or to interact with others. You're making an assumption that the majority of people that buy video games fit your category of "gamer" which you just gave. Believe it or not, a lot of plain jane average people buy video games. The type that play maybe a few hours a week. I doubt the type of gamer that is narcissistic and wants to prove how powerful they are make up more than a rather insignificant amount of the total gaming populace.

 

 

6. We're talking about the gaming community, a fickle and shifting demographic where predicting the outcome of any new success based on "empirical analysis" of any old data is just as fruitless as your intent to prove wrong something that has yet to generate any signifcant new statistics. I simply offfered an example, if you mean to say that scneario won't be duplicated globally to any substantial degree I don't think you lend enough credence to deductive reasoning.

 

Deductive Reasoning based on unverified assumptions is not useful. You're making blind suppositions based on what you THINK the world of gaming is actually like. You talk about the "gaming community" as if it is made up of people vastly different than everyday people.

[alanschu]

I doubt the latter statement is true. Unless your defintion of 'better selling games of all time' is different than kost.

 

When I said better games, I meant PC games.

[steelfiredragon]

what a fiasco

[Pidesco]

"First of all, it isn't the same, as here we control a 4 people party, while in the first game we controlled only one character. Needless to say this makes all the difference in terms of tactical depth. There's only so much we can do with one character."

 

No. There is no more tactical depth. Allowing players to control PCs doesn't add more depth; just means you are doing more of the same. On top of that, fighters in NWN2 have less combat options than in NWN1. They can no longer make called shots for example. BOOO!!!

 

P.S. The orcs were boringly easy. Cruised right through them...

 

Err..., you're not doing more of the same, because each character is different. You do some things with a fighter, others with a cleric, others with a thief, and so on. So in a game with more characters, you have to decide where and how to use each character differently, thus adding a whole new level of decisions you have to make to vanquish your enemies. On the other hand with just one character, like, say, a fighter you have in NWN1, what. four options? Knockdown, power attack, called shots and regular attacks. And that's all. For a whole 20 to 30 hour game.

 

 

The orcs were easy, no argument there. But I had more fun with them than in other encounters in the game. I think it was the wide open spaces first, and later the orcs spawning behind your party, IWD2 style. Just gave me more things to do.

[Nartwak]

But don't you see Alan, using facts and statistics and the scientific method won't get anyone anywhere. This is a job for baseless speculations, hyperbole and assumptions! It's not like spoiled, petulant children immediately and voicefully lash out when small details fail to meet their irrational and arbitrary standards. These are real, serious, problems! Obsidian failed to take into account peoples with learning disabilities.

 

So has Soulthief starting whining about the fonts used yet? It's the only thing I haven't seen him bitch about yet. Wait, maybe it's Riftworm that's the one who bitches endlessless over assinine crap. I'm starting to get the two confused.

[Diamond]

They are just bitter because NWN2 is not what they expected.

1. It is human nature to look for more negative aspects in things they don't like.
   
2. It is human nature to dislike changes, especially in something that they had a very long exposure to.
   
3. It is in human nature to be twice as vocal about bad things than about good things.
   

Whining is going to wind down in a bit of time. The best thing to do now is to ignore these trolls (not that I am implying that constructive feedback should be dismissed though).

 

Case closed.

[Spider]

[quote name='

[kirottu]

But don't you see Alan, using facts and statistics and the scientific method won't get anyone anywhere. This is a job for baseless speculations, hyperbole and assumptions! It's not like spoiled, petulant children immediately and voicefully lash out when small details fail to meet their irrational and arbitrary standards. These are real, serious, problems! Obsidian failed to take into account peoples with learning disabilities.

 

So has Soulthief starting whining about the fonts used yet? It's the only thing I haven't seen him bitch about yet. Wait, maybe it's Riftworm that's the one who bitches endlessless over assinine crap. I'm starting to get the two confused.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, but I

[Tigranes]

Modding gives people big strong muscles.

[Noceur]

The pathfinding is a bit weird.

 

I mean, the character will pick real weird paths when there's an obstacle like a barrel and you just want to walk a few meters, but I can click anywhere on an area and the character(s) will immediately and unerringly move to that point (no matter how complex that path is)

At least in outdoor areas... not sure with indoors, as I usually watch for traps and stuff so I never click that far.

 

So, in one way the pathfinding is great, but in another way (as in combat) it's making things too complicated for itself.

[Gorth]

The pathfinding is a bit weird.

 

I mean, the character will pick real weird paths when there's an obstacle like a barrel and you just want to walk a few meters, but I can click anywhere on an area and the character(s) will immediately and unerringly move to that point (no matter how complex that path is)

It's called evasive maneuvers (Sp?)...

 

If you have played Icewind Dale II, you'll never trust a barrel not to have a hidden agenda. Better to stay clear of them and try do dodge whatever they may do to you

[Noceur]

The pathfinding is a bit weird.

 

I mean, the character will pick real weird paths when there's an obstacle like a barrel and you just want to walk a few meters, but I can click anywhere on an area and the character(s) will immediately and unerringly move to that point (no matter how complex that path is)

It's called evasive maneuvers (Sp?)...

 

If you have played Icewind Dale II, you'll never trust a barrel not to have a hidden agenda. Better to stay clear of them and try do dodge whatever they may do to you

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Haha, yeah.

 

Anyway, read through that guys post and well... I dunno, there are some stuff he's right about but I disagree with most of it and some is just plain dumb.

 

Archetype NPCs? Uh, what is a class really? Elanee and Neeshka are probably the only true clich

[Volourn]

"I have personally talked to tens of thousands of NWN1 players"

 

Ok then.

[three of any kind]

http://www.sorcerers.net/cgi-bin/ultimateb...opic/28/55.html

 

He comes off as a NWN fanboy. Still, many of the criticisms seem valid as I have come across similiar comments on many forums.

 

Its too bad. I was thinking of getting the NWN2 LE, even had it in my basket.

With the dearth of any decent CRPGs, this seemed a nice diversion.

 

I'll be holding off on a purchase for now.

To wait and see if the game gets the support it needs, especially regarding the GUI - if most comments regarding this issue are anything to go by.

 

A clunky glitchy UI is deal-breaker for me. Among other things.

Edited November 13, 2006 by three of any kind