First Dragon Age infos revealed!

[Tigranes]

But then, it's very, very safe to bet that DA's campaign will be better than NWN OC. If anything, it will either be in BG-style, or in a continuation of the KOTOR/JE-style.

[Volourn]

"I've been trying to think of a single quest in NWN that had many different possible solutions (3 or 4), and to the best of my recollection there isn't one"

 

Then your recollection is poor. Try finding the dryad (part of ch1's main quest). Dealing with the wizard and dryad gives you at least 3 or 4 ways to complete your missing (a lock of the dryad's hair needed for the cure).

 

I thought of thought with one second of this topic coming up, and I haven't played the OC in like 3 or so years. *shrug*

 

Another one is the haunted castle.

 

The trial is another (and, it can be wholly non combat as well).

 

I'm sure the list can go on as well. BG2 has some multiple solution quests and it usually involves the bigger ones like Firkragg's and the Druid Grove.

 

 

 

"Because Bioware doesn't make Boring, Linear, Ugly, Non Immersive, Easy, and Annoying games, right?"

 

Actually, they don't. Neither does Obsidian.

Edited November 28, 2006 by Volourn

[Maria Caliban]

I'm a huge fan of BioWare.

[Volourn]

Thanks for adding that very important info to the thread! :joy:

[Dark_Raven]

Thanks for adding that very important info to the thread! :joy:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This coming from the Bioware fanatic.

[Volourn]

Yeah; but at least I 'try' to add something more than 'I like BIO'.

 

P.S. I like Maria. She's cool.

 

P.S.S. I'm no fanatic. Fanatics don';t usually cause games made by their object of affection as overrated.

Edited November 28, 2006 by Volourn

[mkreku]

I especially like that Bioware are now incorporating Shoot'em up sequences in their RPG's. That truly enhances my role playing experience.

 

And for their next attempt they'll even get rid of the dialogue system, in favor of something faster, more action-y, something to keep the attention disorder console kids happy! Who am I to complain? That's true role playing.

 

And I thought they had peaked when they came up with the time traveling lizards! Silly me.

[Maria Caliban]

Volourn:

"Thanks for adding that very important info to the thread! :joy:"

 

I live to serve.

 

In the Thedas, "Ei vento mordoi felgards," means, "I want to kill dwarves."

[Diogo Ribeiro]

And for their next attempt they'll even get rid of the dialogue system, in favor of something faster, more action-y, something to keep the attention disorder console kids happy! Who am I to complain? That's true role playing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Bethesda's in the right track with Oblivion.

[Sand]

"I've been trying to think of a single quest in NWN that had many different possible solutions (3 or 4), and to the best of my recollection there isn't one"

 

Then your recollection is poor. Try finding the dryad (part of ch1's main quest). Dealing with the wizard and dryad gives you at least 3 or 4 ways to complete your missing (a lock of the dryad's hair needed for the cure).

 

I thought of thought with one second of this topic coming up, and I haven't played the OC in like 3 or so years. *shrug*

 

Another one is the haunted castle.

 

The trial is another (and, it can be wholly non combat as well).

 

I'm sure the list can go on as well. BG2 has some multiple solution quests and it usually involves the bigger ones like Firkragg's and the Druid Grove.

 

 

 

"Because Bioware doesn't make Boring, Linear, Ugly, Non Immersive, Easy, and Annoying games, right?"

 

Actually, they don't. Neither does Obsidian.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The problem being is that with each quest there is no chance of failure except for the trial quest. There should always be an option for failing a quest. Imagine if we failed to retrieve any of the components of the cure. I think that could have been an interesting story venue which Bioware would not go down. If there is no chance for failure what is the point of succeeding?

[Tigranes]

Failure is much more difficult than 'various paths to success', because it presentes a completely different set of events. Unless you have the "you failed to get X, but Y still happens" - which occurs at some points, but then people whine that "your actions dont matter" or some such stupidity. I think the best that can happen is, say, they ask you for X to help do Y, but if you fail to get X, then there are alternate, harder paths requiring some harsh sacrifices (i.e. permanently lose con -1) and do Y anyway, or Y is harder to do. If you make Y not happen at all, unless it's a small sidequest where you just 'fail' and consequences are minimal, it's much much harder.

 

I mean, take the darn components. There are so many references to the cure that it's kinda hard to consider failure; and if the game just says "This guy magician awsum made the cure anyway", then you feel cheated. And to remove enough references to make the plot 'hingeable' at any point makes it shallow and utilitarian.

[Sand]

Well, there were those Helmites. They could have made the "cure" which would strengthen Desther's hold and diminish Aribeth, which later in the story when Luskan is attacking NWN the plague hits almost on cue to kill all those of Neverwinter who took the Helmite "cure" almost instantly, weakening the city immensely if not completely wipe out the entire population.

[Volourn]

"The problem being is that with each quest there is no chance of failure except for the trial quest. There should always be an option for failing a quest. Imagine if we failed to retrieve any of the components of the cure. I think that could have been an interesting story venue which Bioware would not go down. If there is no chance for failure what is the point of succeeding?"

 

Absolutely; but how many games actually allow you to fail quests like that? Very few, and besides that has nothing to do with the discussion going on. How many quests in BG2 could you 'fail'? Not too many, that's for sure. :crazy:

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Failure is much more difficult than 'various paths to success', because it presentes a completely different set of events. Unless you have the "you failed to get X, but Y still happens" - which occurs at some points, but then people whine that "your actions dont matter" or some such stupidity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Failure is only as difficult as a developer wants it to be. In the same way, a 'completely different set of events' only carries a negative interpretation to a developer when he has to do double the work to provide for alternate consequences and a divergent path to a quest's outcome. Unless we're discussing main storyline branches, simple success or failure checks and outcome for sidequests are pretty trivial to implement, especially when one factors in the designer's experience and the knowledge of the engine tools to implement them. Even if we're talking of major changes to a game's storyline based on PC choices, what are the odds that a developer can't do a logical set of outcomes that, while not pandering to every possible gamer's expectations, manages to give a good idea of consequence?

 

Besides, failure can mean several things. In Throne of Bhaal there was a quest to help Marlowe defeat a Lich who had his daughter's soul. When you learn Marlowe gave his daughter's soul in exchange for 20 years of fortune you have the chance to either help Marlowe or help the Lich, and if you defeat the Lich you also have the chance to either give the soul back or take it for yourself. 'Failing' to give the soul back just means a different kind of reward and a self-contained consequence that only impacts the PC and the ancillary characters from the quest. Taking this example do you really need to create a consequence to a major plot point that affects everything in a gameworld? Not really, but that is what developers usually want you to believe. There should be repercussions for failing or succeeding a major quest but no one is asking them to change the world, though they most certainly react that way. All you really need are a set of consequences that give an idea of your action or choice.

[Sand]

Volourn, I am just saying that we should have a chance in failing quests. The designers need to expand the horizons just a bit and allow for such things. It would be a nice change of pace.

Edited November 28, 2006 by Sand

[Dark_Raven]

Volourn, I am just saying that we should have a chance in failing quests.  The designers need to expand the horizons just a bit and allow for such things.  It would be a nice change of pace.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It would be too much work for them.

[Tigranes]

Well, I certainly wasn't saying we can't have ANY failed quests. I might not have hinted at it well enough. Pretty much, I think it is doable with sidequests, especially small ones (Marlowe & Lich wasn't really big now, was it?) and make the possibility of abject failure. Just not in massive things like the cure in the main plot, otherwise all you'd get is a workaround (clerics make cure anyway) which meanst aht your character wasn't really needed after all, you didn't really fail, your failure has no consequence, etc.

[Riftworm]

Whether you're on the BG2 side, KotoR side, or NWN1 side or all of the above it doesnt matter. The point is, it's Bioware..

 

When it comes to making games, Bioware Shines.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This is entirely true. Other companies shine as well, but Bioware makes great games. I didn't care all that much for NWN. I enjoyed my two runs, but I thought it was uninspired. However, BG2 and KotOR1 rank among my favorites.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I can imagine how offline NWN would blow chunks after beating it once.

 

I meant online multiplayer. There was such a broad spectrum of modding going on, server rules, guilds and themes that it simply never got dull over the five years I played it online.

 

Even right when it started to lose it's luster, PrC modifications came in, coupled with CEP the PrC basically rewrote classes and feats from scratch and breathed new life into the game.

 

That's why i hold it so hold NWN in such high regard, because of the Multiplayer success. Once single player get's stale which is early, forget about it. NWN1 just never got stale online though. We were a daily populace of 50 on Dungeon Eternal X up until NWN2.

Edited November 29, 2006 by Riftworm

[alanschu]

Well, it's a bit early to rule out NWN2 on the MP front.

 

I recall having issues with the original in MP as well, not to mention toolset issues.

 

 

I thought it was pretty funny because I remember people being upset that NWN didn't follow in BG2's footsteps.

[Cantousent]

I remember the turmoil over the MP focus of NWN. Of course, I think most games are really single player for the majority of players. I guess it depends on whom you ask. I seem to recall that even Diablo, servers and all, was primarily single player. Hell, a lot of folks solo as best they can in MMORPGs.

 

I don't begrudge NWN's ability to tap into a great MP venue for DnD gamers. I recall a lot of folks' posts regarding this. Gromnir's comes to mind from a couple years ago. He wrote a harsh posts commenting on the shortcoming in the NWN single player campaign and ended his review by saying that the game had provided the most fun he'd had playing a CRPG. The multiplayer and modding aspects of NWN really made the game for a lot of people.

 

I guess I'm just not into that aspect. I'd rather play multiplayer DnD with live people.

 

Anyhow, the big thing is that they took the NWN engine and made KotOR1, which was certainly one of my faves.

[Ellester]

I have to admit Dragon Age is the only future title by Bioware that has my interest. But I am real interested! Hopefully this game will rock!

[Xard]

Okay, after doing some research at DA I'm really getting hyped

 

Especially how Good/Evil is handled, roleplaying and above all DA's magic made me drool

[kirottu]

Especially how Good/Evil is handled,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

With Jade Empire they said that closed fist and open palm weren

[Xard]

Yeah, it was quite dissapointing in JE

 

However, this seems to be different.

[Musopticon?]

Well, Jade Empire also seemed very different from the bullying of KotOR's evil choices in the hype stage.