Ladies and gentlemen, a moment of your time!

[Kaftan Barlast]

As most of you know, Im studying Game Development at University. Currently Im developing a tabletop roleplaying system called "Operation Angry Badger"*, but this class requires me to come up with some sort of scientific approach and hypothesis about my game. So, I need to conduct a study.

 

I want you to answer me which approach feels most logical to you, Id also like you to post in the thread and tell me which system the first RPG you played used, although thats strictly optional.

 

 

OPTION 1: "Success by by rolling below a value"

 

This is the system used in SPECIAL, GURPS, Call of Cthulhu and many other games. You have a value that you need to roll under in order to succeed. If you have "pick lock 43%" you need to roll 43 or lower on a d100 to successfully pick a lock.

You modify dificulty by adding or subtracting from the original value as you roll, so the GM might declare you get -10 because the lock is very advanced in which case you need to roll under 33 instead of 43.

 

OPTION 2: "Success by reaching target value"

 

This is the system used in Dungeons&Dragons. You take a value and add that value to a die roll in order to reach a target value set by the DM. If you have "pick lock 7" and the DC(target value) for the lock is 25, you need to roll 18 or more on a d20 in order to succeed.

You modify difficulty by simply increasing or decreasing the target number. DC 25 is a pretty tough lock but DC 30 would take some serious skill.

 

 

Now remember. Im not asking you which system you prefer to play, Im asking you which system you find the most logical.

 

Any help is appreciated, I will need a minimum of 10 votes to be able to use this data for my paper.

 

 

 

 

*OAB is d100 based and will be available for "print & play" in two weeks but is a much simplified version of the system Ive been working on since last year. That system will fill a 300-page rulebook and wont be available for months.

Edited September 22, 2006 by Kaftan Barlast

[metadigital]

Although I can appreciate both methods, it makes more sense to me to achieve a particular score (B) ... coincidentally (or not) I played D&D first.

[Deraldin]

Although I can appreciate both methods, it makes more sense to me to achieve a particular score (B) ... coincidentally (or not) I played D&D first.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have to agree with meta here. Also played D&D first. :ph34r:

[Colrom]

OK, let me see.

 

In one case I have skill of 7or11 and the lock has a difficulty of 25or30 and I roll d20 and succeed if I have d20+7or11>=25or30.

 

In the other case I have a skill of 7or11 and the lock has a difficulty of 4or9 and I roll d20 and I succeed if d20<= 7or11-4or9.

 

They seem mathematically the same to me.

 

But the first case is easier to explain because everyone knows that bigger is better and if you are having trouble threading the needle it's clear that what you really need is a bigger hole not a smaller needle! :D

[Diamond]

The first option has more intuitive representation of target value, "43% chance" vs some abstract "DC 17", the second has more intuitive roll value explanation, "bigger is better".

 

*Abstains*

[Pop]

Having played both D&D and Fallout extensively, I prefer the first system (SPECIAL, in this case). Making percentile rolls seems simpler and more intuitive to me. Oddly enough, I played Fallout first as a cRPG, but D&D was my first PnP.

Edited September 23, 2006 by Pop

[Spider]

It's really hard to answer what is more logical. It all comes to own to what you're used to I guess. I personally think that the second one is slightly more intuitive only because it's somewhat easier to add than subtract (but the difference is really marginal).

 

My first roleplaying experience was with Drakar och Demoner (black box) so I'm no stranger to the first alternative. Although I have played plenty of games that use either version.

[Oerwinde]

I personally think the first system is simpler, and therefore I like it better.

[Jorian Drake]

I know both of them, played 9 years ago MAGUS, a hungarian game what used version a. BUT i hated it. Its more logical and easier the b. variant.

Edited September 24, 2006 by jorian

[Oerwinde]

Also, I played D&D first as well. AD&D that is. Which used both. Using % instead of arbitrary Difficulty ratings just makes more sense to me.

[Judge Hades]

The mechanic that the d20 System uses has been used in other role playing games for a lot longer than Dungeons and Dragons. Cyberpunk 2013 (which then evolved to 2020 and v3), released in the early 1990's uses the mechanic with a d10.

[alanschu]

Whatever you do, just make sure it is consistent!

[Atreides]

Option 2. Dealing with negative numbers is yuck for many people. Do you want a campaign where eventually the numbers are 1-10 and negative in some cases?

[Kaftan Barlast]

Im mystified by your comment, Atreides. Are you sure youve understood the way the system works? What do you mean by "where eventually the numbers are 1-10 and negative in some cases?"

[Atreides]

Ah ok I see what ya mean now. Thought it was D&D 2nd Ed stuff. Me bad.

[Gfted1]

I voted option 2. The one any only systems Ive played is D&D 2nd Edition.

[Tigranes]

Two things:

 

% is better than an artificial number set, because % tells everyone just how far up or down the 'scale' this particular lock is in terms of difficulty, whereas if you say DC 25, a newb to D&D will have no idea. While it doesnt take long for one to catch on that 30 is very hard (not 30%), there's really no point in having to remember that. % wins.

 

At the same time, the main reason for AC change from D&D 2nd Ed to 3rd was that bigger is better is the more intuitive system in most cases.

 

So... just say if the lock is 43%, your roll must reach 43 or higher. Then use skill modifiers that start off at a negative (e.g. at Lock Pick Skill level 1, your roll gets a -20 or something,, so its not quite as easy as it seems to get a 10% lock open).

[Kaftan Barlast]

So... just say if the lock is 43%, your roll must reach 43 or higher. Then use skill modifiers that start off at a negative (e.g. at Lock Pick Skill level 1, your roll gets a -20 or something,, so its not quite as easy as it seems to get a 10% lock open).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

That does sound unnescessarily complex

 

 

 

I do have a beta version available of the game now. It needs spellchecking and some other corrections but if youre interested in takig a look then drop me a PM. Im not posting it online, because I dont want it all over the net to pop up and embarass me 10 years from now "

Edited September 26, 2006 by Kaftan Barlast

[Calax]

People like big.... I like big. Big it is

[Kaftan Barlast]

Well Id like to thank you for participating, Ive recorded the results of this poll and Ill be presenting my game and paper tomorrow morning.

 

 

So you're free to ramble and spam this thread to kingdom come! )

 

 

(personally, I cant believe you can think d20-like systems are more logic than SPECIAL like systems)

[Spider]

Since we can spam (or discuss anyway) now...

 

As I briefly mentioned in my previous post, I think asking which system is more logical to be a very flawed question. Both systems have their base in fairly simple math and thus both are equally logical. It's all addition and/or subtraction.

 

I'm guessing you wanted to know what people felt was more intuitive (and that's what I answered), which is not the same thing. And to me addition is more intuitive than subtraction. Doing the math is simply quicker. We're talking fractions of a second here (at least on the scale mentioned) so it is fairly insignificant, but it's still there.

 

Of course, I'm not a huge fan of using a d100 to make skill rolls in the first place. I fail to see the point of using a d100 over a d20. True, with a d20 you're stuck with 5% increments, but having 91 in a skill rather than 90 (or 18 if we translate) feels a bit pointless.

[Kaftan Barlast]

The roll in a d100 percentile system use no maths at all. It i just a question of judging wether the number you rolled in higher or lower than the value of your skill.

 

You have "Lockpicking 45%" you roll 58. Since 58 is more than you have, you fail to pick the lock. If the GM says its a difficult lock, he will give you perhaps -10% to your roll. Then your skill shrinks to 35% for this roll, the math is decimal and extremely quick

 

Skills in d100 systems is exactly like a big lottery wheel. If the wheel stops when the needle is in the "chocolate" area, you get chocolate. And the bigger the chocolate area is, the higher is the chance that youll score some chocolate )

 

 

 

d20 feels a lot more abstract.

Edited September 27, 2006 by Kaftan Barlast

[Spider]

You have "Lockpicking 45%" you roll 58. Since 58 is more than you have, you fail to pick the lock. If the GM says its a difficult lock, he will give you perhaps -10% to your roll. Then your skill shrinks to 35% for this roll, the math is decimal and extremely quick

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I never said the math isn't quick, but the same is true for a target based system. Although when using a base 100 system, it could be a tad more complex I guess. 47 + 34 is probably less intuitive than your example of subtractions.

 

Although the subtractions are only really simpler when you use 5% increments (or preferrably 10%) which again makes the use of a d100 feel unneeded to me. You're basically already using a d20, you're just pretending that you don't.

[Kaftan Barlast]

The interesting thing is that you dont use maths in the actual roll with d100. With d20 systems you use addition/subtraction in every roll you make.

 

Its DC 20 to make a chair.. ok Ive got carpentry 7 and I roll 9..thats 7+9 = 16..DC was 20.. nope, no chair there. Oh wait! I have a +2 bonus from my magic hammer then Im up to 18.. nah, still no chair.

 

 

 

And in most d100 systems it is vital that you use a d100 because even if you only give bonuses and penalities in decimal increments, characters will still have skills and traits like 39, 62, 89 and so on. "Drakar & Demoner" used a d100 initially but switched to using a d20 and it worked fine. I prefer usig a d100 because percentile systems are extremely intuitive, 35% feels a lot more concrete than 6 out of 20.

[Atreides]

Yeah ppl may feel comfortable working with percentages with d100. Dunno what happens if skills go over 100 either. Fixed ceiling on 100?

 

On the other hand why make numbers bigger when you can work with smaller numbers.