Fallout goes d20

[metadigital]

What ordinal Sign of the Apocalypse have we just reached, I wonder ... :ph34r:

[Musopticon?]

Umm...eight probably. Though it's getting slower by the month, we used to reach a new sign every week. Just goes to show that there's something rotten here.

[Jediphile]

Haha, you jerks and your violent personas.

 

 

Also

Well, think on this.

 

The experience progression for Fallout is the same with the d20 System.  Also the Perk progression, if you don't take the Gifted Talent, is pretty much the same as the Feat progression (minus the one at first level).  The real difference here is that the majority of the d20 System products are classed based while Fallout is not but there are very successful d20 variants that removed the class system, True20 being one of them.

 

There are already a lot of SPECIAL in d20 already.

 

Also they couldn't use GURPS because GURPS doesn't have the open gaming license and SPECIAL has more things in common with the d20 System than GURPS 4e now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's so true.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

To me the problem isn't with the system.

 

I agree that the system used in the Fallout games (that's SPECIAL, isn't it?) is similar to d20, and so d20 may seem appropriate.

 

But that's not the problem for me. Because I honestly didn't like the Fallout system much. The Fallout games were great in spite of the system used, not because of it, in my not so humble opinion. It was okay, but I still feel the result would have been better with GURPS rules.

 

But Fallout worked anyway because it was so well-written with lots of exciting plot and interesting characters. D20 seems to me to resort completely to dungeon-crawls and hack 'n slash, where the stats for rooms and monsters are far more important than the descriptions of the characters.

 

I mean, what made Fallout great were stuff like this from Fallout 2:

 

"The irony is razor sharp. Maybe we'll talk later after I stop the bleeding." [Comment to McClure in Fallout 2 upon hearing that the orders of an extra GECK for Vault 8 and extra water chips for Vault 13 were accidentally switched.]

 

"Oh well, I thought there weren't any children because this might be the European version of Fallout 2." [Comment to Phyllis upon learning about the pregnancy cycles of Vault City in Fallout 2.]

 

"The next cheap sonuvabitch who haggles for a drink is going to be wearing his ass as a hat!" [Cassidy]

 

"Wow! I feel as if I've passed some arbitrary experience value and gained more power!" [Marcus]

 

:D

 

Just reading that again makes me laugh...

 

Or has anyone tried sneak into the raider camp, kill all the mercs, but NOT the native (the bare-chested guy), then walk up to him and talk to him? He says nothing for the first twenty clicks, but his comment when he does is just pure gold

 

It's very difficult to put that sort of thing into a PnP RPG, especially if it's d20, which is very geared towards combat and stats. That doesn't preclude it from being good, but I won't be holding my breath...

[Kaftan Barlast]

Why d20 fails to do what special does:

 

 

ME: I shoot him in the groin for that extra pain! :D

GM: No, you cant do that.

ME: What do you mean I cant?!

GM: This is d20, here you just make a sort of abstract attack that hits him somewhere undefined and he takes damage.

ME: Ok fine. I "attack" <_<

GM: Hes wearing too much armour so you miss*

ME: Dont I accidentally hit his friend or some civilian standing behind him? )

GM: No, this is d20, if you miss, your bullet just magicly vaporizes into thin air

GM: Anyway, his friend 2km away shoots you. you take 12damage

ME: WFT?!! Theres no way he can hit me from that distance!! Hed get like -999% to hit!

GM: d20 has no difficulty increment due to distance

ME: *Critically hits GM in the groin for 469 hit points. Maybe the scars will make good party talk.*

 

 

"

 

 

* having AC is a fault of both systems, its just more apparent in D20

Edited June 23, 2006 by Kaftan Barlast

[Judge Hades]

Um... d20 has difficulty increment based on distance for range weapons. Such as if the "friend" was using a rifle with a range increment of 100 meters. From Point Blank range to 100 meters there is no modifier. At 101 to 200 meters he would have a -2 to hit, at 201 to 300 meters he would have a -4 to hit. It goes up to a maximum of 10 range increments for a -20 to hit.

 

Also, in some d20 varients, you can do called shots. You ned to read the Torn Asunder supplement. Very graphic and very detailed about critical hits and called shots.

 

There are variant rules about Armor doesn't increase AC but gives Damage Reduction. Star Wars d20 uses this rule and it is also listed in Unearthed Arcana from WotC.

 

Also there rules for missed shots and missed grenades spalsh if you choose to use them. It all depends on how detailed you want the combat to be.

Edited June 23, 2006 by Judge Hades

[Kaftan Barlast]

Lies. My PDF scan of the D&D book tells me no such rules exist "

[steelfiredragon]

Umm...eight probably. Though it's getting slower by the month, we used to reach a new sign every week. Just goes to show that there's something rotten here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

umm that would be the pile of dead skunks over there in the corner, byt the coke machine next to the refrigerator.

[Judge Hades]

Lies. My PDF scan of the D&D book tells me no such rules exist  "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There is more to the d20 System than Dungeons and Dragons.

[Dark_Raven]

Why d20 fails to do what special does:

 

 

ME: I shoot him in the groin for that extra pain! :D

GM: No, you cant do that.

ME: What do you mean I cant?!

GM: This is d20, here you just make a sort of abstract attack that hits him somewhere undefined and he takes damage. 

ME: Ok fine. I "attack"  <_<

GM: Hes wearing too much armour so you miss* 

ME: Dont I accidentally hit his friend or some civilian standing behind him? )

GM: No, this is d20, if you miss, your bullet just magicly vaporizes into thin air 

GM: Anyway, his friend 2km away shoots you. you take 12damage

ME: WFT?!! Theres no way he can hit me from that distance!! Hed get like -999% to hit!

GM: d20 has no difficulty increment due to distance 

ME: *Critically hits GM in the groin for 469 hit points. Maybe the scars will make good party talk.*

 

 

"

 

 

* having AC is a fault of both systems, its just more apparent in D20

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good one Kaft, that is so Falloutish.

[Judge Hades]

I would use a classless point base system centered around the d20 Modern interpretation of the d20 System rules.

[213374U]

...cash cow?

[Jediphile]

Precisely the problem with d20: To get a system that is not lucriously abstract and lacking in the most simply of concepts, you have to buy a gazillion supplementary rulebook, scattering the basics across more books than 2e could ever wave a stick at. Oh, but they are still all *optional* of course... "

[Judge Hades]

It depends on what type of campaign you want to run.

 

If you want to run Space Opera, get star Wars.

 

If you want to play modern/near future get d20 Modern.

 

If you want to play fantasy get Dungeons and Dragons.

 

Each rules interpretation of the d20 System in those sets are self contained so you don't need any DnD book to run a d0 Modern campaign, or a Star Wars campaign. You on't need a "gazillion" supplementary rule books. Hell, for d20 Modern or Star Wars d20 you just need one. For DnD you just need 3.

 

Stop making up lies, Jediphile.

[Briosafreak]

http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/dload.php...egory&cat_id=63

 

 

This is going to be removed soon so enjoy while you can

[Kaftan Barlast]

Why would they remove it? Just because some heathens decide to make a commercial PnP book, it doesnt mean you cant post homebrew rules on the net does it?

[jaguars4ever]

Why d20 fails to do what special does:

 

 

ME: I shoot him in the groin for that extra pain! :D

GM: No, you cant do that.

ME: What do you mean I cant?!

GM: This is d20, here you just make a sort of abstract attack that hits him somewhere undefined and he takes damage. 

ME: Ok fine. I "attack"  <_<

GM: Hes wearing too much armour so you miss* 

ME: Dont I accidentally hit his friend or some civilian standing behind him? )

GM: No, this is d20, if you miss, your bullet just magicly vaporizes into thin air 

GM: Anyway, his friend 2km away shoots you. you take 12damage

ME: WFT?!! Theres no way he can hit me from that distance!! Hed get like -999% to hit!

GM: d20 has no difficulty increment due to distance 

ME: *Critically hits GM in the groin for 469 hit points. Maybe the scars will make good party talk.*

 

 

"

 

 

* having AC is a fault of both systems, its just more apparent in D20

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Excellent stuff, Kaft. :D

[kirottu]

Didn

[Darque]

A long long time ago, yes.

 

I used to have the link, but I think it died in a reformat a while back.

[aVENGER]

^Here you go.

[steelfiredragon]

it could still sell depending on how well it gets done.

or it could flop like d20 post apocolyse and gammaworld.

 

eitherway who knows.

[Jediphile]

It depends on what type of campaign you want to run.

 

If you want to run Space Opera, get star Wars.

 

If you want to play modern/near future get d20 Modern.

 

If you want to play fantasy get Dungeons and Dragons.

 

Each rules interpretation of the d20 System in those sets are self contained so you don't need any DnD book to run a d0 Modern campaign, or a Star Wars campaign.  You on't need a "gazillion" supplementary rule books.  Hell, for d20 Modern or Star Wars d20 you just need one.  For DnD you just need 3.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

How does that in any way change the incredibly simplistic and insultingly unrealistic approach of d20 games? No, I'm not asking for the rules to be realistic, but I would prefer if they were not so far removed from anything you can believe in that they're basically screaming idiot in my face when I try to use them. Bad design at the core is not something that can be fixed quite so easily, though I'll admit that Star Wars is better than most d20 stuff. But then again, the old d6 system was even better.

 

Even so, the point remains that there are lots of books to get even for the Star Wars game, if you want to see the whole thing. Special books about the jedi, the sith, etc. WotC knows that rulebooks sell, so you get lots of those, and each has lots of new classes, powers (or spells in d20), and so forth.

 

That's where I hate d20 - it becomes a contest to who has access to the most uber-prestige classes, as there is no firmly established balance point in the core rules that everything else must adhere to. Or at least, if there is, then we do not get to see it, so even if WotC has that written down secretly somewhere, the GM does not get to make up his own mind on the matter. 2e actually had something like that, in case you wanted to make up your own classes.

 

Stop making up lies, Jediphile.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I see the truth hurts...

[213374U]

But then again, the old d6 system was even better.

This is where I stopped reading. It's all the proof I need that you will go to any lengths to further your personal crusade to bash the d20 system, even if it means making up stuff that you obviously know nothing about.

 

The d20 system is by no means perfect, and not my first choice for the Fallout world. But it does follow the KISS rule, where many others don't. And that is a must for fun.

[Judge Hades]

How does that in any way change the incredibly simplistic and insultingly unrealistic approach of d20 games? No, I'm not asking for the rules to be realistic, but I would prefer if they were not so far removed from anything you can believe in that they're basically screaming idiot in my face when I try to use them. Bad design at the core is not something that can be fixed quite so easily, though I'll admit that Star Wars is better than most d20 stuff. But then again, the old d6 system was even better.

 

I have ran very realistic d20 campaigns and I have ran very cinematic d20 campaigns. Just because a rule is there does not mean you have to use it or that you cannot make a house rule that overrides the base rule. Such as in my d20 Modern campaigns I have armor use Defense/Damage Reduction combination. I also use the Wound/Vitality system than the base hit point system.

 

If you don't want a simplistic and unrealistic campaign then modify the rules as you see fit. Millions do.

 

Even so, the point remains that there are lots of books to get even for the Star Wars game, if you want to see the whole thing. Special books about the jedi, the sith, etc. WotC knows that rulebooks sell, so you get lots of those, and each has lots of new classes, powers (or spells in d20), and so forth.

 

However, none of them are necessary. Only the primary book for Star Wars is necessary, such as d20 Modern, though Dungeons and Dragons has 3 primary books.

 

That's where I hate d20 - it becomes a contest to who has access to the most uber-prestige classes, as there is no firmly established balance point in the core rules that everything else must adhere to. Or at least, if there is, then we do not get to see it, so even if WotC has that written down secretly somewhere, the GM does not get to  make up his own mind on the matter. 2e actually had something like that, in case you wanted to make up your own classes.

 

WRONG.

 

The DM/GM determines on what classes, rules, equipment, and etc. that are in his or game. Not a single primary rule book or supplementary book can override that. It is the DM/GM that determines the balance in his or her game. I have made my own classes that balanced the core classes well, as well as advance and prestige classes. I sugest actually reading and knowing the d20 System before posting such nonsense again.

 

I see the truth hurts... 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Your truth is a lie. Deal with it.

[Jediphile]

But then again, the old d6 system was even better.

This is where I stopped reading. It's all the proof I need that you will go to any lengths to further your personal crusade to bash the d20 system, even if it means making up stuff that you obviously know nothing about.

 

The d20 system is by no means perfect, and not my first choice for the Fallout world. But it does follow the KISS rule, where many others don't. And that is a must for fun.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, things like Attacks of Opportunity follow the KISS principle...

 

I may voice criticism of the d20 rules, but at least that's on a basis of having played them and even written adventures for those rules. If you're trying to infer that I'm just bashing d20 out of bias, then I must refute that - my position is very firmly rooted in bad experience not just from playing d20, but also from writing for it as a GM and as a designer. Is it a horrible system? No, but it could certainly have been a lot better with little effort, and I continue to find utter disappointing in its improvements (or lack thereof) compared to 2e.

 

Even Monte Cook has basically said that 3.5e is a sales gimmick in his review of it (which now seems strangely absent from his website now), so it's not as if I'm alone in voicing criticism, even if I disagree with him that the core 3e rules were good. But then he's scarcely impartial, having actually written those rules. That he voiced criticism of 3.5e speaks volumes.

 

But if my opinions are unpalatable to your apparent preference for d20, then I'm truly sorry

[Jediphile]

I have ran very realistic d20 campaigns and I have ran very cinematic d20 campaigns.  Just because a rule is there does not mean you have to use it or that you cannot make a house rule that overrides the base rule.  Such as in my d20 Modern campaigns I have armor use Defense/Damage Reduction combination.  I also use the Wound/Vitality system than the base hit point system.

 

If you don't want a simplistic and unrealistic campaign then modify the rules as you see fit.  Millions do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have with 2e, but while I've heard this argument before, I just don't see the value of it. If 3e is problematic that I have to change all the rules, then why should I waste money on it in the first place? I was looking forward to 3e on a basis of being able to throw out all my old 2e rules, because it was annoying in the extreme that the rules were spread out all over n number of rulebooks, issules of Dragon, plus my own revisions. It quickly dawned on my, however, that the 3e base was far, far less open to tinkering than 2e ever was. 2e had lots of rules marked as optional, while 3e has few, and the players rely on what those rules say - I hate being cast as the bad guy by the rules because something the rulebooks insist on contradicting my GM style. If that's what the rules do, then they have to go. Period. I demand that they support my authority as a GM, not the other way around. 2e does this. 3e does not. So farewell to 3e.

 

Sure, 2e rules are just as bad, but they're close to two decades old now. I can accept that they look old because they are. 3e is supposed to be new and streamlined, however, and yet they are among the most rigid and inflexible rules I have seen in the last many, many years.

 

Yes, I've added stuff from 3e to my house rules, but that was much easier to do than it was to play 3e with revisions. That does not speak highly of the playability of the game, if you ask me.

 

Even so, the point remains that there are lots of books to get even for the Star Wars game, if you want to see the whole thing. Special books about the jedi, the sith, etc. WotC knows that rulebooks sell, so you get lots of those, and each has lots of new classes, powers (or spells in d20), and so forth.

 

However, none of them are necessary. Only the primary book for Star Wars is necessary, such as d20 Modern, though Dungeons and Dragons has 3 primary books.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I doubt I'm the only GM who has ever been met with frustration and disappointment from players, when I outlawed stuff they'd read in some odd supplement or issue of Dragon. Though I can stick by my guns, it's still annoying to both players and myself, and it's much worse in 3e, where there seems to be new classes and spells in every single new publication that comes out. And as GM I'm not even allowed a base on which to evaluate the strengths of the various classes on

 

That's where I hate d20 - it becomes a contest to who has access to the most uber-prestige classes, as there is no firmly established balance point in the core rules that everything else must adhere to. Or at least, if there is, then we do not get to see it, so even if WotC has that written down secretly somewhere, the GM does not get to  make up his own mind on the matter. 2e actually had something like that, in case you wanted to make up your own classes.

 

WRONG.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The DM/GM determines on what classes, rules, equipment, and etc. that are in his or game. Not a single primary rule book or supplementary book can override that. It is the DM/GM that determines the balance in his or her game. I have made my own classes that balanced the core classes well, as well as advance and prestige classes. I sugest actually reading and knowing the d20 System before posting such nonsense again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

When you're met with a contrary position, your answer is to raise your voice?!?

 

Sure I can override anything, but how many gamers will be at my table if I veto everything they've found in some obscure supplement or issue of dragon? People do tend to take these things as officially supported by the publishers, even if WOTC says it's not to be taken as such, they don't exactly draw attention to it, and consequently they undermine my position as GM everytime they publish new classes, as they continue to ignore the problem. WOTC's solution is equivalent to putting their fingers in their ears and going "lalalalalalah - I can't hear you!!!", because they can't be bothered to take these things into account as long as money keeps floating in.

 

I want games, not marketing strategies intended to drain me for every penny. It's just easier to give 3e the miss and play something else, where this is not a problem. 2e may be old, but it's about as good/flawed as 3e, and doesn't have new stuff published to undermine my position as GM.

 

I see the truth hurts... 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Your truth is a lie. Deal with it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I did - I stopped playing 3e/d20.